New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion - Page 16 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #451 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
They will claim the STW was defective and not indicative of the real product.
Or sabotage by a competitor.
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post #452 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Or sabotage by a competitor.
It would be possible to demagnetize the motor, but how would somebody sabotage the suspension without obvious damage or disassembling and reassembling the driver with different components? Chemically attacking or dissolving the resin in the spiders, maybe?

I don't believe for a second that there was sabotage. First, there would be far too much at stake to lose if discovered. And second, there's no need for sabotage in this case.

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post #453 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 05:43 AM
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I got an email reply this morning from the actual George Bullimore at Tymphany. With his permission, here it is in entirety:

"Yes I’ve been participating in the ‘discussion’ over on AVS,

we have the Klippel data here measured on a final production driver last week, and we’re very close to publishing an application note for the STW including the Klippel and CEA2010 measurements, but it will take a couple of weeks before we can release the app note.


I very quickly looked at the data posted, and it seems very far off the spec, I’m not sure if the Klippel fitting error was too high, or something else going on, but the data certainly doesn’t look right,

To be honest it’s a very busy time here at the moment, we’re putting the final touches to our new Anechoic chamber. I visit the forum in my personal time as part of me being a DIY hi-fi nerd, it’s not a company role, so time is limited somewhat.


I’m flying to China Monday for 2 weeks, but intend to try and find some time to post on the forum, however the aggressive, and witch hunting attitude really puts me off.

However I offer to help, others just manipulate and attempt to bully.


I have offered one-to-one help to several people from the forum, and we’ve been having civil, constructive discussions.

Unfortunately there are a limited few on the forum who have a strong personal agenda, and are looking to ‘win’ their fight, in truth it’s not clear what a ‘win’ would be, and to what end?


Anyway it’s a real shame, as I used to enjoy developing these kind of hobbyist aimed drivers, as said they are hard to justify commercially, but I ensure we launch some as I feel they are good for the audio community in general.

I’m happy to discuss any feedback you have on the STW, good or bad, as long as we keep it professional and civil."

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post #454 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 05:46 AM
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If there was sabotage, Nick could get sued. Which I'm sure he is smart enough to know about prior to posting numbers.


Seeing as there hasn't been any outrage posted by the company (that we know of) of their drivers klippel testing being posted by a member here, I consider that a sign the graphs are accurate.
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post #455 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 07:19 AM
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At the end of the day, the Peerless STW motor shows some promise, and could live up to it's 10.4 mm linear xmax claim, though the suspension ( in the particular DUT ) is non-linear at about 2/3rd's of it's stated 10.4 mm xmax. Same / similar motor with a larger spider O.D. and larger cone could be a decent design.



Taking a stab extrapolating from the curves, at 45.5 mm one way excursion the motor would exhibit 2 percent or less of it's at rest Bl.

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post #456 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
I got an email reply this morning from the actual George Bullimore at Tymphany. With his permission, here it is in entirety:

"Yes I’ve been participating in the ‘discussion’ over on AVS,

we have the Klippel data here measured on a final production driver last week, and we’re very close to publishing an application note for the STW including the Klippel and CEA2010 measurements, but it will take a couple of weeks before we can release the app note.


I very quickly looked at the data posted, and it seems very far off the spec, I’m not sure if the Klippel fitting error was too high, or something else going on, but the data certainly doesn’t look right,

To be honest it’s a very busy time here at the moment, we’re putting the final touches to our new Anechoic chamber. I visit the forum in my personal time as part of me being a DIY hi-fi nerd, it’s not a company role, so time is limited somewhat.


I’m flying to China Monday for 2 weeks, but intend to try and find some time to post on the forum, however the aggressive, and witch hunting attitude really puts me off.

However I offer to help, others just manipulate and attempt to bully.


I have offered one-to-one help to several people from the forum, and we’ve been having civil, constructive discussions.

Unfortunately there are a limited few on the forum who have a strong personal agenda, and are looking to ‘win’ their fight, in truth it’s not clear what a ‘win’ would be, and to what end?


Anyway it’s a real shame, as I used to enjoy developing these kind of hobbyist aimed drivers, as said they are hard to justify commercially, but I ensure we launch some as I feel they are good for the audio community in general.

I’m happy to discuss any feedback you have on the STW, good or bad, as long as we keep it professional and civil."
If i am wrong about his identity, I apologize for the annoyance.

I guess its just a personality flaw that he needs to be loved and appreciated as the designer of the driver but doesnt want any actual criticism.

How he thinks it helps his cause to argue over and over, everybody else just doesnt really know what they are talking about, but those claims are only refuted by his alleged credentials, not by any data.

You will be appreciated for your talents when you share them. So far its a lot of effort to stall an actual discussion.

Nick, darn it, you manned up more than anybody else. I will become a customer going forward, you earned it.

It just wasnt that hard...it required someone who has done this before. Thanks again.

Why does GB deserve any deference when an outside designer posts data on GBs driver before he does?

Perhaps GB is a brillant designer, maybe this driver isnt their best work, i would be fine if thats the case. But the effort to stall and obscure and whine its not civil?
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post #457 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
It would be possible to demagnetize the motor, but how would somebody sabotage the suspension without obvious damage or disassembling and reassembling the driver with different components? Chemically attacking or dissolving the resin in the spiders, maybe?

I don't believe for a second that there was sabotage. First, there would be far too much at stake to lose if discovered. And second, there's no need for sabotage in this case.
I didn't say I believed there was sabotage. I was throwing out another potential excuse that could be used.
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post #458 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
I used to enjoy developing these kind of hobbyist aimed drivers, as said they are hard to justify commercially, but I ensure we launch some as I feel they are good for the audio community in general.

So hard to justify commercially? It's taken over one year to find a single example for testing that wasn't already sold, apparently. So hard to find that one of the major competitors was able to buy one and send it for testing first?



Is there just one guy making these subs in a closet one at a time, still working on the backlog?


Gbullimore stated earlier in the thread that he would have a hard time trusting anyone developing a driver without verified Klippel data, then went on to state that he did not trust any of his Klippel data up to that point.


This thread makes my head hurt. Thanks to Electrodynamic for providing the data we were all waiting for.

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post #459 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 08:08 AM
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How about Nick got honest testing done and Tympany and GBs claims are horsesxxx? Seems a lot more likely.

Lol driver sabotaged...no need it seems the design itself fits that bill.
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post #460 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bimmaguy View Post
So hard to justify commercially? It's taken over one year to find a single example for testing that wasn't already sold, apparently. So hard to find that one of the major competitors was able to buy one and send it for testing first?



Is there just one guy making these subs in a closet one at a time, still working on the backlog?


Gbullimore stated earlier in the thread that he would have a hard time trusting anyone developing a driver without verified Klippel data, then went on to state that he did not trust any of his Klippel data up to that point.


This thread makes my head hurt. Thanks to Electrodynamic for providing the data we were all waiting for.
My point exactly! If he is actually the designer its worse than if he wasnt!
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post #461 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Kameron King View Post
The thing is, there are multiple vendors using these same claims, so where are they getting their data from? Seems obvious that the manufacturer is providing them with key terms to use in their marketing.
I asked a public question about this on the STW listing at parts-express.com:

Peerless by Tymphany STW-350F subwoofer, product #264-1652 at parts-express.com

And got an answer from the staff:

QUESTION:'Where did this information come from?: "Thanks to such extreme dimensions and a well controlled magnetic field, this driver is capable of 45.5 mm of excursion before any major loss in motor strength (Bl). In other words, this driver is capable of 90 mm (3.5") peak to peak excursion while still producing low distortion output."

The listed parameters give linear Xmax of only 10.4mm. So where did the "45.5mm" and "90mm" come from?'

-A shopper on Apr 3, 2019

BEST ANSWER: It is direct from the manufacturer, their wording based on their results of the driver. Their point is that the physical X-max number using the standard calculation does not fully describe the driver's capability. Their design (Xmech, longer gap, and longer coil) allows for more movement than that standard math will account for that will be fully controlled by the magnetic field they have engineered with a better magnet design. The results will be closer to 45.5 mm one way and 90 mm peak to peak.

-Greg T, Staff


The marketing department at Tymphany is still "Tymphany".
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post #462 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
From gbullimore's e-mail:
"Anyway it’s a real shame, as I used to enjoy developing these kind of hobbyist aimed drivers, as said they are hard to justify commercially, but I ensure we launch some as I feel they are good for the audio community in general."
Maybe I'm missing something here... If the drivers were good for DIY why wouldn't they be good commercially? Is he trying to say that drivers that appeal to DIY'ers don't appeal to commercial users and DIY'ers don't buy enough of them? Do we have such disparate interests in drivers? Other DIY drivers are used in commercial products. For example, the Dayton UM18 is sold to DIYer's and a variant of it is used in commercial products (Seaton).
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post #463 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 09:38 AM
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I expected about 20mm possibly 25mm within the Klippel thresholds based on the design of the driver, with a good chunk of mechanical headroom past that point. The BL and LE curves from the tested driver look decent actually. It's not in the same zip code as a linear 45mm one way, but nobody realistically believed that after seeing the gap specs, suspension and motor geometry to begin with. The suspension curve pulled from that driver ruins the party though.


15" sealed roundup is happening as soon as I can get a day. An STW-350 will be a participant.

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post #464 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
However I offer to help, others just manipulate and attempt to bully.

Unfortunately there are a limited few on the forum who have a strong personal agenda, and are looking to ‘win’ their fight, in truth it’s not clear what a ‘win’ would be, and to what end?

Anyway it’s a real shame, as I used to enjoy developing these kind of hobbyist aimed drivers, as said they are hard to justify commercially, but I ensure we launch some as I feel they are good for the audio community in general.

I’m happy to discuss any feedback you have on the STW, good or bad, as long as we keep it professional and civil."[/I]
While it is certainly true that the internet has its share of hostility, I think many people have a breaking point when they repeatedly ask one question and it remains unanswered for as long as this one was. People wanted verified Klippel data to support the claim that Tympani made that the driver was capable of 45.5mm Xmax with no major loss of motor power. This is not a driver in development. It is a driver being sold and it took a competitor to send one in to get an answer. No one started off being rude.

Clearly there are issues with the driver and now it either means the review sample is faulty, an issue with quality control/reliability, or a limited design. If Tympani can 'find' a driver to send in for testing, there would be an answer to the question.

At present there are a number of 15's capable of >20mm xmax with a decent Bl curve such as Alpine's SWR1522 and the UM15. Both of those drivers have Klippel data available and Alpine supplies it with the driver
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post #465 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 11:27 AM
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The STW has a strong motor. 25% of it's motor strength (182 Bl^2/Re) is still stronger than 70% of other drivers' motors. The HST15 is a monster in this arena.

Am I correct in these observations?
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post #466 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
No one started off being rude.

So?

Easier said than done, but rudeness never accomplishes anything useful, drives people away (good job, RoboAVS), and makes things unpleasant for everyone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
The STW has a strong motor. 25% of it's motor strength (182 Bl^2/Re) is still stronger than 70% of other drivers' motors. The HST15 is a monster in this arena.

Am I correct in these observations?

Yes, but high peak motor strength isn't useful if it's only for a small excursion range.
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post #467 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fill35U View Post
I got an email reply this morning from the actual George Bullimore at Tymphany. With his permission, here it is in entirety:

Yes I’ve been participating in the ‘discussion’ over on AVS,
[...]
I've been saying it was him from the start :/

I think he's confused "win" with "get accurate specs and cut through marketing bull..."

Now we have PE confirming that the copy for the STW listing was provided directly by Tymphany.

Acting surprised or upset when you get called out on these claims is absurd, especially when all data points at it being nonsense.
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post #468 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 02:04 PM
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This: "Acting surprised or upset when you get called out on these claims is absurd, especially when all data points at it being nonsense."


sounds remarkably and unfortunately "presidential".
Sad but true

this thread starting to seem like a millstone in a stream with subpar water flow>"relentlessly grinding around and around, on and on and on,

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post #469 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
we all know that every marking person, at any manufacturer, distributor or retailer will always try to show products in the most positive light, this is the way the world functions.
Peerless have some of the most honest spec sheets on the market, the facts are there:
power test given with full specification, you can repeat this testing and expect the drivers to pass, most manufacturers cannot claim the same,
both 1w/1m and 2.83v sensitivity given,
tolerance of TS parameters, who else will guarantee there products in this way?
etc..etc...
So your spec sheets are accurate, but you provide completely absurd info to retailers?

I love the talk about guaranteeing driver parameters, then crying how it doesn't match their own tests. I thought these specs were guaranteed? This just keeps descending further into absurdity.

Just putting this back out there again, since it's now known to be Tymphany's own copy that have the following ridiculous claims. Taken from PE's website:

* Unlike a conventional motor design, Bl changes very slowly as function of voice coil displacement

Clearly not accurate.

* this driver is capable of 45.5 mm of excursion before any major loss in motor strength (Bl). In other words, this driver is capable of 90 mm (3.5") peak to peak excursion while still producing low distortion output.

Also clearly a farce, as has been pointed out from the start.

You can no longer claim that Tymphany is not making absurd claims about this driver that have zero basis in reality.

If you expect a warm welcome by the DIY community, you should approach us with honesty in your spec sheets, marketing materials, and your interactions. You have have a long way to go in this regard.

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post #470 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Yes, but high peak motor strength isn't useful if it's only for a small excursion range.

I said that 25% of peak power for one driver may be 70% for another. When you start at 70 (UM15), 70% may be 48. When you start at 200 (HST15), 25% may be 50. In other words, motor power at 25% of Bl for the HST for example is still producing the same power as the UM15 at 70%.

I'm merely stating that klippel stopping at 70% is a huge disadvantage to drivers with strong motors. It is in no way defending or attacking Tympani. It's merely a tech observation I was looking for comments about.

I don't think I was rude to anyone nor am I calling anyone out.
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Thanks @Electrodynamic for doing this since you just saved me some money. Unlike a couple other guys here I will contribute *nothing* to you doing the test since I only made that promise to someone else. That and I've bought your drivers before and to be honest they're **** man.... Seriously though I will buy some more subs at some time in the future so consider that my "donation". Also man do you drink heavily before EVERY post??

Results suck but as everyone mentioned it was expected to a degree. Still looking forward to Josh's results though with numbers we can directly compare to other 15's. Thx Josh.

I just gotta say I agree with Noah. I understand the experts on here can't be bs'd and want accurate specs but still you can be civil about it. I don't get how Paul was banned for calling him cupcake early on in the thread, but there's been plenty of things said afterward that were outright personal attacks and uncalled for and let go. We all have different personalities and will get into it from time-to-time but there's no reason to not remain respectful and have civil discussions. I get it he hasn't been completely honest. So don't buy the driver. Simple.
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post #472 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Madaeel View Post

I just gotta say I agree with Noah. I understand the experts on here can't be bs'd and want accurate specs but still you can be civil about it. I don't get how Paul was banned for calling him cupcake early on in the thread, but there's been plenty of things said afterward that were outright personal attacks and uncalled for and let go. We all have different personalities and will get into it from time-to-time but there's no reason to not remain respectful and have civil discussions. I get it he hasn't been completely honest. So don't buy the driver. Simple.
Didn't know he got banned over that, but it's not like that behavior is anything new from him. Many of his posts were deleted, so it's possible you're not seeing the full story anymore. I remember he was way out of line.
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post #473 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 04:53 PM
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Didn't know he got banned over that, but it's not like that behavior is anything new from him. Many of his posts were deleted, so it's possible you're not seeing the full story anymore. I remember he was way out of line.
I know and I don't condone his behavior here at AVS or any other site. Just because he's a friend doesn't mean it's ok. It's in some people's personalities to be tactless, my wife is like that, but it doesn't make it right. Some people don't mind it and some never will like it. I remember what Paul said and it was nothing to be banned over, but he definitely could've worded it differently. However, what some of the other guys have said since wasn't any better and that was ok? I'm just saying I agree with Noah in that some guys on here go to far sometimes and are downright rude. I can't imagine they'd talk like that to someone face-to-face. We're all adults on here and yet it seems it's extremely hard for us to act like it. George is either going to post the data or not. Least Josh will have comparable results for us which is all that matters.
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post #474 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
I said that 25% of peak power for one driver may be 70% for another. When you start at 70 (UM15), 70% may be 48. When you start at 200 (HST15), 25% may be 50. In other words, motor power at 25% of Bl for the HST for example is still producing the same power as the UM15 at 70%.

That doesn't help linearity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
I'm merely stating that klippel stopping at 70% is a huge disadvantage to drivers with strong motors.

I don't know what you mean by stops at 70%.

Noah
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post #475 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 08:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
That doesn't help linearity.






I don't know what you mean by stops at 70%.
Some of the tests were stopped at 70% bl or something
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post #476 of 598 Old 04-04-2019, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Some of the tests were stopped at 70% bl or something

Ah.

Not an issue if linearity is the concern, which it is for me at least.

Spinmonster, consider this scenario:

Let's say you have a BL curve that's ruler flat at 15 over +/-30mm.

Now let's say you left the endpoints at 15 and humped up BL so it was 30 at omm.

Yes, you'd get higher output, but also more distortion.

Personally, I'd take the flat BL curve.

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post #477 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
I expected about 20mm possibly 25mm within the Klippel thresholds based on the design of the driver, with a good chunk of mechanical headroom past that point. The BL and LE curves from the tested driver look decent actually. It's not in the same zip code as a linear 45mm one way, but nobody realistically believed that after seeing the gap specs, suspension and motor geometry to begin with. The suspension curve pulled from that driver ruins the party though.


15" sealed roundup is happening as soon as I can get a day. An STW-350 will be a participant.

Sorry but wanted to ask is that a RF 15 or just the basket?
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post #478 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 04:19 AM
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hi all,
I have limited time at the moment due to travel, but i will update here where i can,
the measurements posted certainly do not look right, i've sent the data to our klippel expert to see if he can shed any light on the driver being faulty, or a set up issue,
As I mentioned the STW is not easy to get a accurate Klippel measurement due to the way Klippel works, it does not actually measure the parameters and graph, it fits polynomial equations and derives the measurements from those curves,
If the set up is not correct, or the driver is not driven correctly, then the curve fitting will be off and the results not valid.
the red flags to me are the Irms at 3A is not nearly enough to get a good curve-fit.

also curious to see the mounting set up, and amp spec.
the KA3 used is not very capable at high power, it has a 15A breaker in the driver feed.

here we use a KA3 for the more sensitive measurements and a high power version of the DA2 for LSI.
we had to build a solid Aluminium table to clamp the drivers as both the klippel stands have too much flex

we will be releasing a full application note very very soon and i was hoping to wait until then to release all the measurements, but as there are some unconfirmed measurements published now, it would be best to publish some of the data.

note:
I'm sure there will be hostile replies, attempts to get 2 manufacturers fighting against each other, all sorts of other forum norms, i have very little time to entertain this, so whilst i'm happy to answer those with genuine interest or feedback, I will not respond to goading, bullying or insults.
I don't mind a good discussion, constructive criticism, negative feedback etc.. just remember behind every keyboard is a real person who deserves to be treated as such.
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post #479 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 05:51 AM
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Set up for Klippel isn't rocket appliances. Put a reflective sticker on cone, clamp the magnet in the fixture and aim the laser at the reflective sticker. Attach amplifier output and test sense leads to the driver terminals. Open software on computer and select the test(s) desired.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #480 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 06:26 AM
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It is good to see some data.

You start your post by basically saying the test done by an outside company is PROBABLY wrong and you are looking into it...the driver is faulty or the testing company did it wrong. Or that another designer has any agenda except to carefully and without bias prove his driver is better from a tested results standpoint.

It is certainly possible the data is wrong, the driver is bad, or the other designer has an agenda.

Until your Klippel test guy explains why he knows the test is wrong, it seems better not to really bring it up.

Civil should not assume anything was done wrong or with bad intent, right?
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