New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion - Page 17 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #481 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 06:37 AM
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Interesting. The Peerless curves and curves posted by SI look broadly similar over the +/- 20 mm range. Clearly the Peerless curves end later and some of the SI absolute values are a bit different, but the shapes are consistent with one another.

Looks like the final results are somewhere in between:
"With an Xmax of 10.4 mm this driver might not seem all that impressive."
"this driver is capable of 45.5 mm of excursion before any major loss in motor strength (Bl). In other words, this driver is capable of 90 mm (3.5") peak to peak excursion"

From the latest results posted, it's abundantly clear that the second statement is a pipe dream and is blatantly false. It's closer to 45.5 mm excursion peak to peak rather than one-way (averaging the Xmax from Peerless Klippel and SI Klippel). I wonder if marketing confused P-P with one-way and that's how such a bad statement made it to the vendors. This would not surprise me in the least.

FYI, I own both 4x Peerless STW and 2x SI MKIV subwoofers, so I don't have a dog in this game other than getting real measurements and better subwoofers for everyone! I'm especially looking forward to the application note.

Looks like the cost/displacement is roughly equal between the SI and the Peerless units with the new sets of data. Depending on how you cherry pick data, it's possible to make either woofer look better or worse.

Tim
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post #482 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
...we will be releasing a full application note very very soon and i was hoping to wait until then to release all the measurements, but as there are some unconfirmed measurements published now, it would be best to publish some of the data.
Thanks for the data.

From the graphs I'm seeing that both 70% BL and 70% suspension compliance occur at ~+/-18mm.

The power compression graph looks very impressive, subject to what 2500W means.

If 2500W continuous, that's amazingly good.

If not, what's the duty cycle?

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post #483 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
hi all,
I have limited time at the moment due to travel, but i will update here where i can,
the measurements posted certainly do not look right, i've sent the data to our klippel expert to see if he can shed any light on the driver being faulty, or a set up issue,
As I mentioned the STW is not easy to get a accurate Klippel measurement due to the way Klippel works, it does not actually measure the parameters and graph, it fits polynomial equations and derives the measurements from those curves,
If the set up is not correct, or the driver is not driven correctly, then the curve fitting will be off and the results not valid.
the red flags to me are the Irms at 3A is not nearly enough to get a good curve-fit.

also curious to see the mounting set up, and amp spec.
the KA3 used is not very capable at high power, it has a 15A breaker in the driver feed.

here we use a KA3 for the more sensitive measurements and a high power version of the DA2 for LSI.
we had to build a solid Aluminium table to clamp the drivers as both the klippel stands have too much flex

we will be releasing a full application note very very soon and i was hoping to wait until then to release all the measurements, but as there are some unconfirmed measurements published now, it would be best to publish some of the data.

note:
I'm sure there will be hostile replies, attempts to get 2 manufacturers fighting against each other, all sorts of other forum norms, i have very little time to entertain this, so whilst i'm happy to answer those with genuine interest or feedback, I will not respond to goading, bullying or insults.
I don't mind a good discussion, constructive criticism, negative feedback etc.. just remember behind every keyboard is a real person who deserves to be treated as such.

Are you saying that Warkwyn, the NA distributor for Klippel, does not know how to measure a driver now?

Suddenly, after a third party paid to measure one of these woofers, you now have Klippel data to share?

Could it be that you've been sitting on these because they completely disprove your propaganda?

Your own graphs clearly negate your marketing. Tymphany should be ashamed for providing such information to retailers and the community in general. You've essentially been leading this community on for well over a year now.

You don't even have to extrapolate this to see the motor force is quite reduced even after 15mm of excursion. If you extrapolate that to 45, there's virtually no motor force left. Maybe that's what they meant to say.

45.5mm of excursion with virtually no loss of motor force.

Last edited by notnyt; 04-05-2019 at 10:22 AM.
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post #484 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I don't know what you mean by stops at 70%.
Klippel measures xmax to be where the cone is at 70% of Bl; 70% of peak motor power.

The HST15's BL @40% of Bl is more power than a UM15 at peak (0mm). For the HST to fall to the same motor power the UM15 has at 70% (Klippel testing), the HST will be farther than 38mm. This means usable xmax is going to be greater than the limits of Klippel's definition of xmax if the motor is unusually strong.

While the STW has many problems other than motor power, other drivers especially neo motor subs like the B&C 152 will have usable xmax that is greater than it's geometric or Klippel tested xmax.

Tympani, is trying to use this concept to state their driver has enough motor power to claim a usable 45mm Xmax but that is now known to be non-sense as the coil would only be 1mm in the gap and not making any substantial power to be usable.

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post #485 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Klippel measures xmax to be where the cone is at 70% of Bl; 70% of peak motor power.

The HST15's BL @40% of Bl is more power than a UM15 at peak (0mm). For the HST to fall to the same motor power the UM15 has at 70% (Klippel testing), the HST will be farther than 38mm. This means usable xmax is going to be greater than the limits of Klippel's definition of xmax if the motor is unusually strong.

I don't get why you're mixing two drivers' numbers together; they're tested one at a time.

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post #486 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 10:34 AM
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Here's Tymphany's provided Bl(x) plot of the STW-350F kindly extrapolated to 45.5mm along with the SI HST15 MK3 overlaid on top.

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post #487 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
I don't get why you're mixing two drivers' numbers together; they're tested one at a time.
He's comparing them and illustrating a point that the HST has more motor force at over 30mm of excursion than the um15 does centered.
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post #488 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
also curious to see the mounting set up, and amp spec.
the KA3 used is not very capable at high power, it has a 15A breaker in the driver feed.

here we use a KA3 for the more sensitive measurements and a high power version of the DA2 for LSI.
we had to build a solid Aluminium table to clamp the drivers as both the klippel stands have too much flex

I am not sure you are aware that both the HST 15MKIII and the STW were tested on the same day by the same person in the same facility. Whatever flex in the extrusions bolted to the floor would be present in the results of both drivers.



Also, i'd like to point out that breakers have trip curves, and can literally pass 3-4 times their rated currents for short periods of time. Unless the driver was driven at Zmin for a length of time, it is unlikely that a 15 amp breaker would trip.



Link to pdf of a Klippel driver test stand:



https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...iver_Stand.pdf
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post #489 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Here's Tymphany's provided Bl(x) plot of the STW-350F kindly extrapolated to 45.5mm along with the SI HST15 MK3 overlaid on top.

I guess it would be best for the manufacturer to simply state that saying it has no significant loss of motor power at +/-45mm is not accurate. Everyone could then move on.

I'd like to see Josh's test of it in a real box showing distortion results at various SPL's.
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post #490 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
I guess it would be best for the manufacturer to simply state that saying it has no significant loss of motor power at +/-45mm is not accurate. Everyone could then move on.

I'd like to see Josh's test of it in a real box showing distortion results at various SPL's.
And this:

* Unlike a conventional motor design, Bl changes very slowly as function of voice coil displacement

And this:

* this driver is capable of 90 mm (3.5") peak to peak excursion while still producing low distortion output.
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Here's Tymphany's provided Bl(x) plot of the STW-350F kindly extrapolated to 45.5mm along with the SI HST15 MK3 overlaid on top.

That HST is a beast!
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post #492 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
He's comparing them and illustrating a point that the HST has more motor force at over 30mm of excursion than the um15 does centered.

Which has nothing to do with Peerless' Klippel results, hence my puzzlement.

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post #493 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
Which has nothing to do with Peerless' Klippel results, hence my puzzlement.
Thought it was fairly clear, he was just saying even at decreased bl, you may still have usable xmax, which is what Tymphany may have been getting at. Though their claims are now known to be ridiculous.
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post #494 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Klippel measures xmax to be where the cone is at 70% of Bl; 70% of peak motor power.

The HST15's BL @40% of Bl is more power than a UM15 at peak (0mm). For the HST to fall to the same motor power the UM15 has at 70% (Klippel testing), the HST will be farther than 38mm. This means usable xmax is going to be greater than the limits of Klippel's definition of xmax if the motor is unusually strong.

While the STW has many problems other than motor power, other drivers especially neo motor subs like the B&C 152 will have usable xmax that is greater than it's geometric or Klippel tested xmax.

Tympani, is trying to use this concept to state their driver has enough motor power to claim a usable 45mm Xmax but that is now known to be non-sense as the coil would only be 1mm in the gap and not making any substantial power to be usable.



Per Klippel: Driven at Fs with a sinusoidal tone to a displacement equal to 0.75 of the at rest Cms will result in 10% distortion.

Source: page 7 of 10 https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...inearities.pdf

https://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...inearities.pdf


10% distortion @ 82% of rest Bl, 20% at 70% rest Bl.
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post #495 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
10% distortion @ 82% of rest Bl, 20% at 70% rest Bl.

Interesting, I thought 70% rest Bl was for 10% distortion.

20% seems very generous; with a 15Hz tone, the 2nd harmonic at 30Hz might well be subjectively louder.

It might sound good though

Noah
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post #496 of 598 Old 04-05-2019, 12:39 PM
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Aside from all of this Klippel BS which I honestly know nothing about, I now have both of my STW's in sealed enclosures and am very happy with their performance so far, being powered by my iNuke 6000 at 4 ohms stereo. I do plan to get a bigger amplifier eventually that will give them 3000+ rms each, but for now the iNuke is definitely adequate. I need to get into REW and start experimenting with that too. I was considering the SI HST 15s but they would have cost quite a bit more with the exchange and shipping to Canada, so I ended up with the STW's and I can't complain.


My DuraTex just arrived today, so I'll be getting them painted sometime in the next few weeks, when the weather gets a little better.




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My DuraTex just arrived today, so I'll be getting them painted sometime in the next few weeks, when the weather gets a little better.
Are you spraying the duratex? If so, what gun/tip?
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Are you spraying the duratex? If so, what gun/tip?



I'll be rolling it on...I don't want it to be too textured so I'm not using the roller that came with the kit. I got the deep tint base that I'll be tinting a charcoal grey color.

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I'll be rolling it on...I don't want it to be too textured so I'm not using the roller that came with the kit. I got the deep tint base that I'll be tinting a charcoal grey color.
Yes, the roller that comes with the kit will leave you with a 40 grit sandpaper finish. Go to Homedepot and buy the a foam roller.

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I'll prob sell em at some point within 2 years just so I don't have to drag em w/ me when I move...
But when I buy them you have to bring them to Colorado anyway.
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I just replaced my iNuke 6000 with an FP14000 clone...these things love power!!! Minidsp Balanced 2x4 is on the way.



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Thanks @Electrodynamic for doing this since you just saved me some money. Unlike a couple other guys here I will contribute *nothing* to you doing the test since I only made that promise to someone else. That and I've bought your drivers before and to be honest they're **** man.... Seriously though I will buy some more subs at some time in the future so consider that my "donation". Also man do you drink heavily before EVERY post??[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Results suck but as everyone mentioned it was expected to a degree. Still looking forward to Josh's results though with numbers we can directly compare to other 15's. Thx Josh.

I just gotta say I agree with Noah. I understand the experts on here can't be bs'd and want accurate specs but still you can be civil about it. I don't get how Paul was banned for calling him cupcake early on in the thread, but there's been plenty of things said afterward that were outright personal attacks and uncalled for and let go. We all have different personalities and will get into it from time-to-time but there's no reason to not remain respectful and have civil discussions. I get it he hasn't been completely honest. So don't buy the driver. Simple.
No, I'm just getting old and my tolerance for bull ***** is getting lower. Real data speaks for itself and one particular member on here owes me more money from running his mouth than everyone else (not you).
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Please traipse through this train wreck, and judge for yourself:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post42684202

FWIW, I purchased Stereo Integrity products years ago, continue to use them today, and have been very satisfied by them.
So in lieu of the supplied data do you still think that our data is a "train wreck" compared to other manufacturers? I appreciate you being a customer but your banter on here insinuating that our data is inaccurate has been proven false (I'll take that greater than $2,000 payment at any time now if you still believe my data is not accurate). Quite the contrary with Peerless/Tymphany being the one who are out in left field. But it's ok, they are Peerless/Tymphany so they don't need to answer to anyone...but they do. They owe it to everyone to provide actual real data. Not BS from their marketing department. We have said for years that their driver will not produce anywhere near their claims but people on here have blindly agreed and moved on with zero questions. If we claimed the same erroneous claims the internet would explode. But here we are with Klippel data. Enjoy actual real data.
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No, I'm just getting old and my tolerance for bull ***** is getting lower.
I like to think my tolerance for BS has gotten *higher* as I've aged. Took a while for it to sink in that sometimes we aren't seeing people at their best. Even though we each have our own burdens, we're all still capable of great things.

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So in lieu of the supplied data do you still think that our data is a "train wreck" compared to other manufacturers? I appreciate you being a customer but your banter on here insinuating that our data is inaccurate has been proven false (I'll take that greater than $2,000 payment at any time now if you still believe my data is not accurate). Quite the contrary with Peerless/Tymphany being the one who are out in left field. But it's ok, they are Peerless/Tymphany so they don't need to answer to anyone...but they do. They owe it to everyone to provide actual real data. Not BS from their marketing department. We have said for years that their driver will not produce anywhere near their claims but people on here have blindly agreed and moved on with zero questions. If we claimed the same erroneous claims the internet would explode. But here we are with Klippel data. Enjoy actual real data.
No one here owes you any money, you've made multiple posts advertising your paypal address making bets out in the open which no one agreed to, you just sound desperate for cash when you keep banging on about it. Cannot believe you actually represent a company on here and speak with that manner to potential customers. You may make good subs, well then let your subs and specs speak for themselves, present the data in a respectful manner and be done with it. I get the fact you feel defensive about a product you've put many man hours into creating, so let the results speak for themselves, there's no need to mouth off with verbal abuse. Just my opinion.

I like the look of stereo integrity subs but your attitude on here has put me right off ever owning one I'm sorry to say.
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No one here owes you any money, you've made multiple posts advertising your paypal address making bets out in the open which no one agreed to, you just sound desperate for cash when you keep banging on about it. Cannot believe you actually represent a company on here and speak with that manner to potential customers. You may make good subs, well then let your subs and specs speak for themselves, present the data in a respectful manner and be done with it. I get the fact you feel defensive about a product you've put many man hours into creating, so let the results speak for themselves, there's no need to mouth off with verbal abuse. Just my opinion.

I like the look of stereo integrity subs but your attitude on here has put me right off ever owning one I'm sorry to say.
Everyone is different, I feel the exact opposite and wouldn't hesitate to buy from SI I was happy to see him stick up for his product and post the data.
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Regardless of what others say in regards to Nick personally I have never had any issues with him or his subs. In my opinion based on some of the posts that have been written about him or his poor customer service there is always two sides to everything and for the most part ( maybe not always ) its mostly a select few that influence others. If I decide to ever buy more subs without a doubt I would buy from him again.

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post #508 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 06:02 AM
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Everyone is different, I feel the exact opposite and wouldn't hesitate to buy from SI I was happy to see him stick up for his product and post the data.
Oh Im happy to see the data, just not the countless demands of money from people that's all
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post #509 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 06:14 AM
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Oh Im happy to see the data, just not the countless demands of money from people that's all
Come on man

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post #510 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 06:23 AM
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Come on man
Well;

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Again, for every millimeter that we are wrong we will give you guys $100 spread across your wolf-pack of 3 or 4 people. For every millimeter you guys are wrong (you, notnyt, etc) are in it for $100 per millimeter paid to me. My Paypal is [email protected] for you guys to send your funds.
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Nor can we make up the amount of money you will owe us once I publish the Klippel data.
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For every milimmeter we are wrong you owe us $100. And for every millimmeter we are wrong I will pay you and your wolf-pack $100.
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Looks like you guys owe me $2,589.00. My Paypal is [email protected].
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No, I'm just getting old and my tolerance for bull ***** is getting lower. Real data speaks for itself and one particular member on here owes me more money from running his mouth than everyone else (not you).
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(I'll take that greater than $2,000 payment at any time now if you still believe my data is not accurate).

Its a bit tiresome in my opinion
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