New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion - Page 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #511 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by gentlemaniac View Post
Well;


Its a bit tiresome in my opinion
I took that as "I told you so" or "I was right and you were wrong" Some things are not to be taken so literally
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post #512 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Come on man
I've truly got no dog in this fight, but Nick did come across that way. He did push a wager on others (that they did not take him up on, take it for what you wish). Once he proposed it, it was nearly every post that he said people owed him money for when the charts came out.

Being prideful in a quality product is a good thing. I just can't see how he's poking at this wager being the best way. Sending drivers for Klippel is on the polar opposite end of the spectrum, it's exactly what you want in a company! So, again YMMV
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post #513 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
I took that as "I told you so" or "I was right and you were wrong" Some things are not to be taken so literally
maybe, but you can only recycle the same garbage so many times before it gets boring. Like i said, just my opinion and how it comes across to me.
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post #514 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by gentlemaniac View Post
maybe, but you can only recycle the same garbage so many times before it gets boring. Like i said, just my opinion and how it comes across to me.

Here is my opinion the same holds true when someone gets bad mouthed constantly and from my interpretation the one that gets bad mouthed should be nice and quite and not get flustered unless of course as in promoting a product that is the next best thing to sliced bread and once tested turns out to be anything but. Just my input no more or less.
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post #515 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
I've truly got no dog in this fight, but Nick did come across that way. He did push a wager on others (that they did not take him up on, take it for what you wish). Once he proposed it, it was nearly every post that he said people owed him money for when the charts came out.

Being prideful in a quality product is a good thing. I just can't see how he's poking at this wager being the best way. Sending drivers for Klippel is on the polar opposite end of the spectrum, it's exactly what you want in a company! So, again YMMV
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maybe, but you can only recycle the same garbage so many times before it gets boring. Like i said, just my opinion and how it comes across to me.
Again, replace the bet with "I told you so" or "I was right and you were wrong". I took this as Banter at worst. To suggest the guy is so hurting for money that he'd make open wagers, expecting people to actually pay him That stretching things pretty far.

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post #516 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Again, replace the bet with "I told you so" or "I was right and you were wrong". I took this as Banter at worst. To suggest the guy is so hurting for money that he'd make open wagers, expecting people to actually pay him That stretching things pretty far.
There's no doubt he was willing to put his money where his mouth is, and provided data to back it up too. Banter at worst doesn't usually include a paypal email address for payment....The wide consensus here is that his products are terrific and have great results. That reputation is hard earned, and should be hard defended as well.

And IMO, it didn't sound like it was being driven by lack of cash, pure ego to me. And I stand by the pride remark, when you are being drug through the mud, pride can let you pull yourself out of it. I can surely see Nick's side of things here. Some of how he went about it doesn't align with my ideas of good customer relations/public perception. JMHO
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post #517 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 07:41 AM
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Some of how he went about it doesn't align with my ideas of good customer relations/public perception. JMHO
Now I certainly understand that
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post #518 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 08:19 AM
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Some of how he went about it doesn't align with my ideas of good customer relations/public perception. JMHO
This shouldn't surprise you. Read these this post and then the reply it got and you'll begin to understand my comment earlier in the thread.
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post #519 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:30 AM
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It is good to see some data.

You start your post by basically saying the test done by an outside company is PROBABLY wrong and you are looking into it...the driver is faulty or the testing company did it wrong. Or that another designer has any agenda except to carefully and without bias prove his driver is better from a tested results standpoint.

It is certainly possible the data is wrong, the driver is bad, or the other designer has an agenda.

Until your Klippel test guy explains why he knows the test is wrong, it seems better not to really bring it up.

Civil should not assume anything was done wrong or with bad intent, right?
Or simply provide the successful test data you had that you based your marketing info on.
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post #520 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:39 AM
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Does anyone really think he is going to admit this driver is not what it claims to be?? This thread has been going on for awhile and finally it gets tested properly and what happens next no more posts and then one that implies it was done wrong maybe its just me but I feel this guy and his claims are full of it.

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post #521 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:40 AM
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Many here called for respect and civility to GB, who has been friendly but not particularly forthcoming about a driver he designed. We can all guess why, but i think the point was we didnt want to guess -- we wanted data.

So Nick showed up, and without provocation old beefs were brought up...yes we all know a few dont like Nick and feel his D4 driver was not specced right. So as what I see as a very reasonable response to the flack he took, he offered a constructive challenge -- he will prove he is an honest designer, and will send his driver and the tympany for testing. He replied to taunting with a challenge -- not insults or a relitigation of the previous beefs.

And he celebrated. And has a right to. He showed us data, and an incredible set of specs for his latest creation. Which looks like a serious dominator over the stw.

So, the data is here now. And nick is celebrating but only (imo) in so far as clearly demonstrating his honest transparency. His credibility is high. The bar is set and tympany and others are welcome to respond.

Context matters, Nick didn't just freak and spike the football.
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post #522 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
Does anyone really think he is going to admit this driver is not what it claims to be?? This thread has been going on for awhile and finally it gets tested properly and what happens next no more posts and then one that implies it was done wrong maybe its just me but I feel this guy and his claims are full of it.
This will die a quiet death with no resolution with them saying that this driver is different and too complicated to be quantified by Klippel. I think the powers that be will simply say that AVS has no huge audience and sales are just fine.
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post #523 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:55 AM
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Unfortunately I have to agree. Yes there are lots who have home theaters, stereo systems but if you take that group vs the nuts ( meaning DIYers. ) who are constantly trying to achieve nirvana we are sadly out numbered.

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post #524 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 11:50 AM
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Great thread! This thread reminds me of the "How to choose a loudspeaker" thread. I can't wait to see the 15" comparison!

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post #525 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
Does anyone really think he is going to admit this driver is not what it claims to be?? This thread has been going on for awhile and finally it gets tested properly and what happens next no more posts and then one that implies it was done wrong maybe its just me but I feel this guy and his claims are full of it.

Are you talking about gbullimore?

The latest data he presented shows about +/-18mm at 70% BL.

Are you saying that's not valid?

If you're talking about the +/-45mm, why not let that dead horse rest?

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post #526 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 03:49 PM
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Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion you have yours I have mine I have post only a handful of times where as others have posted numerous times. You believe what you want I believe what I want either way I really do not care. You have a great day.

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post #527 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 08:22 PM
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as I've said several times, all the specs are published with tolerances on the specifications sheet.
the gap height and coil length are published and accurate, I have provided accurate Klippel data Representative of production products.
the woofer can be used up to 90mm peak to peak and will not rattle, buzz, bottom etc.

I'm not going to be drawn into giving opinion on other manufacturers drivers, which may or may not have very different design goals and/or performance.


non-numerical Marketing wording is a whole other subject...


It's a shame the thread has gone from an offering to share information about a design and it's use, to needing to defend a barrage of accusation and forum posturing.
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post #528 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
as I've said several times, all the specs are published with tolerances on the specifications sheet.
the gap height and coil length are published and accurate, I have provided accurate Klippel data Representative of production products.
the woofer can be used up to 90mm peak to peak and will not rattle, buzz, bottom etc.

I'm not going to be drawn into giving opinion on other manufacturers drivers, which may or may not have very different design goals and/or performance.


non-numerical Marketing wording is a whole other subject...


It's a shame the thread has gone from an offering to share information about a design and it's use, to needing to defend a barrage of accusation and forum posturing.
Offering to share information? That's why one of our forum members had to pay to get this tested to get accurate info? Congratulations on sharing coil and gap height, you're so transparent!

What about numerical marketing, which you seem to completely ignore? From the PE website:

* this driver is capable of 45.5 mm of excursion before any major loss in motor strength (Bl)

* this driver is capable of 90 mm (3.5") peak to peak excursion while still producing low distortion output.

PE confirmed this information was provided by Tymphany. Obviously, it's complete bs, as we've been saying from the beginning. You conveniently did not provide the Bl(x) plots because it clearly proves this to be false. A forum member had to pay to have one of your drivers tested so we could see the real numbers.

Don't complain about posturing after all of this, it's insulting.
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post #529 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post

* this driver is capable of 45.5 mm of excursion before any major loss in motor strength (Bl)

* this driver is capable of 90 mm (3.5") peak to peak excursion while still producing low distortion output.
Ricci's testing will shed light on the distortion claim.

"No major loss of Bl at 45.5mm" was bunk. I think if the first statement gets removed from marketing, it will go a long way to gbullimore acknowledging it was an incorrect statement to post. If he had just given up that one point, this debate would have died long ago. If it were me I would concede it could be worded more accurately.
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post #530 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:08 PM
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It's a shame the thread has gone from an offering to share information about a design and it's use, to needing to defend a barrage of accusation and forum posturing.
The issue with the thread was that you refused to share information about a design and it's use until a 3rd party supplied it. Data must have existed for Tymphany to make a statement about motor strength at 45mm for that to appear in the PE description.

The initial request for Klippel data to support odd claims was made on 1/19/18, 14 months ago and it looks pretty benign:

Quote:
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Hi George,

Welcome to AVS

Maybe a disclosure that you work for Tymphany may be useful

The weight does matter, hence the low sensitivity. Not enough motor force was gained to offset the weight and efficiency suffered.

54v free air is quite a bit, though may not push this beyond xmax. I haven't modeled that. It would probably depend on the frequency.

How tall is the surround on these from the basket? None of the technical drawings have a dimension on that.

Would you mind sharing some of the klippel tests for this unit to give a better understanding of all around performance?

"although in theory a low displacement woofer will have lower THD (all things being equal) the fact that you don't have 20+ square foot of wood vibrating away is a huge advantage."

Also, not sure what you're trying to say here, the phrasing is odd. Building an adequately braced enclosure is trivial.

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post #531 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:13 PM
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Ricci's testing will shed light on the distortion claim.

"No major loss of Bl at 45.5mm" was bunk. I think if the first statement gets removed from marketing, it will go a long way to gbullimore acknowledging it was an incorrect statement to post. If he had just given up that one point, this debate would have died long ago. If it were me I would concede it could be worded more accurately.
Both claims are false. IIRC, 70% Bl is like 20% THD. Then there's also the crazy non linear suspension and fs shift with excursion. Looking forward to Ricci's tests, though.
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post #532 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:30 PM
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...I have provided accurate Klippel data Representative of production products.
the woofer can be used up to 90mm peak to peak and will not rattle, buzz, bottom etc.

OK, it won't hurt itself at +/-45mm.

But wouldn't you agree that distortion would be excessive, given that the BL plot shows BL down by more than 2/3 at +/-30mm, and presumably continuing its steep drop from there?

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post #533 of 598 Old 04-10-2019, 10:33 PM
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Then there's also the crazy non linear suspension and fs shift with excursion. Looking forward to Ricci's tests, though.

Yes we need a tiebreaker here; the plots gbullimore posted show a relatively symmetric Kms that hits 70% compliance close to where BL does.

Noah
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post #534 of 598 Old 04-11-2019, 03:44 AM
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The issue with the thread was that you refused to share information about a design and it's use until a 3rd party supplied it. Data must have existed for Tymphany to make a statement about motor strength at 45mm for that to appear in the PE description.
Yeah, the data existed proving that they knew they were lying in their marketing material. Hence why they weren't going to provide it.

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OK, it won't hurt itself at +/-45mm.
Which is nearly entirely irrelevant because it can't get there.
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The point I have tried to make for quite a while is that you earn credibility here, it is not awarded because of who you are

Obviously GB you are in an impossible situation because the marketing dept and the design team are working together to cover each others tracks....they make claims you cannot back up...and you cannot simply say marketing, like many depts in this industry, are making up figures that no engineer would put his own credibility on the line for.

So you are stuck in the middle, knowing a lot, perhaps more than most here, but you cant truly demonstrate it because doing so would contradict the marketing from your own company. i have no idea what type of NDAs exist in England, but Im confident its clear you cannot contradict your own dept directly.

this results in your credibility being compromised. that is why i said from the beginning you are hurting yourself and your company if you are GB....not posting is better imo.

this could be seen as really insulting, or, perhaps as uncomfortably close to the truth. i would like you to participate in the discussion, but what has been infuriating for most is the slow drip of information and the quiet campaign to appear reasonable...but at the same time not just take a deep dive into the driver and truly explain the successesand failures of the design.

i get it...you cant. but also understand then why your words arent valued the way you would like them to be. assuming you are GB, you are "the man" at Tympany. but that business reality also causes you not to be seen as such here...you have to defend the company by your role even if the product has flaws, and that role prevents a real discussion imo.
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post #536 of 598 Old 04-11-2019, 10:03 AM
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EXCELLENT post!
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post #537 of 598 Old 04-11-2019, 01:10 PM
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@RoboAVS look at you coming into this discussion with logic and reason. Don't you know there is no place for that here?

In all seriousness, this is why most major corporations have strict rules about social media. There is really no good that could have come from GB posting on here. If the product is worth the money, this DIY group would find it and buy it in droves.

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post #538 of 598 Old 04-11-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post

this results in your credibility being compromised. that is why i said from the beginning you are hurting yourself and your company if you are GB....not posting is better imo.
Instead of posting 5 paragraphs talking about panel resonance and how to calculate xmax in response to a request for a Bl graph, dodging the question, he should simply say,

"OK, marketing worded it poorly and there is a drop in motor strength at 45.5mm and a huge spike in distortion there too."

Humility, responsibility, and credibility demonstrated.
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post #539 of 598 Old 04-11-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Which is nearly entirely irrelevant because it can't get there.
Sure it can with enough power
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post #540 of 598 Old 04-11-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Sure it can with enough power
How do you figure? The BL looks to be ~0 at +/-45mm How can it get there? Inertia?
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