New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 582 Old 01-15-2018, 09:02 PM - Thread Starter
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New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion

This seriously looks interesting.

Peerless by Tymphany STW-350F-188PR01-04 15" High Power Subwoofer

Product page:
https://www.parts-express.com/peerle...ofer--264-1652

Video review:

Optimum Cabinet Size
  • Sealed Volume 2 ft.³'
  • Sealed F3 42 Hz
  • Vented Volume 2.88 ft.³
  • Vented F3 24.2 Hz


Highlights
  • Massive 7.4" voice coil produces extraordinary low power compression
  • 2 Large aluminum shorting rings for better control and minimal harmonic distortion
  • Dual 8 ohm voice coil allow multiple wiring configurations including dual amplifier designs
  • Internal magnet structure provides more force from a smaller magnet
  • Lower Vas and Fs with higher BL for unmatched low end capability from the smallest enclosures
  • Extensive voice coil venting for quiet operation and increased power handling
  • Over 90mm of mechanical excursion prevents failure under the most demanding conditions

90mm of "mechanical" excursion but published stat is just over 10mm.



Specs used for the attached WinISD file.
The first WinISD is with the published 10.4mm excursion.
The second WinISD is with excursion set to the 45mm mechanical limit.
https://www.tymphany.com/wp-content/...188PR01-04.pdf
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Attached Files
File Type: zip Peerless STW-350F188PR01-04.zip (955 Bytes, 130 views)
File Type: zip 45MM_Excursion_Peerless STW-350F188PR01-04_45MM.zip (966 Bytes, 150 views)

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post #2 of 582 Old 01-15-2018, 10:10 PM
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Lol this again, it's been like two days since the last thread?

At least there's video now, but in a datacenter and can't hear anything. That does not look to be hitting the 45mm advertised one way xmax. The motor may have the clearance, but not the surround
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post #3 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Lol this again, it's been like two days since the last thread?

At least there's video now, but in a datacenter and can't hear anything. That does not look to be hitting the 45mm advertised one way xmax. The motor may have the clearance, but not the surround
Only 54 volts going in, may be amp limited there.
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post #4 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 06:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Lol this again, it's been like two days since the last thread?

At least there's video now, but in a datacenter and can't hear anything. That does not look to be hitting the 45mm advertised one way xmax. The motor may have the clearance, but not the surround
Oh gheez, sorry.
I CTRL+F'd the first few pages of this subforum for "Peerless" and didn't find anything, so I posted up.

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post #5 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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I added a WinISD file to the OP in case anyone wants to play with enclosure types.
There are two WinISD files.
One set to regular published 10.4mm excursion (recommended).
And the second one set to the 45mm "mechanical limit" excursion.
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post #6 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 07:47 AM
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perhaps this is a response to the new svs pb16 driver?
diy could make something similar, i would imagine svs has similar issues/benefits to the huge voice coil....?
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post #7 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
perhaps this is a response to the new svs pb16 driver?
diy could make something similar, i would imagine svs has similar issues/benefits to the huge voice coil....?
Tymphany makes svs's drivers, so could be a design they chose not to use.

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post #8 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 08:35 AM
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Big coils have a problem... they are heavy, especially if you try to make them have high excursion.

A 7 or 8 inch coil might be fine on a 24 or 33, but on a 15 it seems like a waste.

The LMS had a 4 and look at all the dents in the cone from going over 80mm.

The 24's have yhe surround for 90 or maybe even 110. It's about the size of a bicycle tire.
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post #9 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Only 54 volts going in, may be amp limited there.
lol, "only"... and free air
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post #10 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ Eddie View Post
Oh gheez, sorry.
I CTRL+F'd the first few pages of this subforum for "Peerless" and didn't find anything, so I posted up.
It's all good least theres video in this one
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post #11 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 06:37 PM
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Now that I have watched the video, I can say that either:
1) his amp is rolling off below 20hz
or
2) this subwoofer is acting non-linearly down low.

Just based on the cone motion with Bass Will Destroy You, vs what I've seen my LMS-18's do.

He's not hitting those 10-20hz tones linearly, like I am here:

The difference might even be audible... even after considering camera mic roll-off.

Also, that small spider area has "questionable" abilities to reach 90mm's linearly, as does basket clearance...

It can probably do 90mm's, but only JUST, and with fairly high THD I'd imagine....

Out of all the ways to "add loudness", adding more excursion is the worst of the available options...
Going from sealed->IB->ported->horned is a better way.
Also doubling cones/coils + power/amplifiers is another good way. <- the common-sense way.
Increasing driver sensitivity and motor force can also help, but there are limits to that...

-My 2 cents
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post #12 of 582 Old 01-16-2018, 07:59 PM
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I wonder what happened to TCSounds IP with the LMS?
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post #13 of 582 Old 01-17-2018, 10:14 AM
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It looks like one of those tiny 1.5" full-range drivers from computer/bluetooth amplified speakers that has literally been magnified/duplicated into a 15" size. Those tiny drivers have mmmassssiiiivveee coils/spiders/motors for their size, as does this Peerless one.





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post #14 of 582 Old 01-19-2018, 07:24 AM
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I can confirm the driver can do Peak to Peak excursion in excess of 91mm,
the surround is not limiting, this would lead to excessive distortion,

a heavy VC is not necessarily a problem, excess Mms and 'dead mass' certainly is an issue, but remember that the more wire in the coil the more force.
high Mms helps achieve a low in-box tuning, there is no way around this.
the most intelligent way to add mass is to increase the VC wire length, as you are adding mass and force,

it's like engine weight in cars, a 200kg engine with 100bhp is going to be very slow, but a 200kg engine with 600bhp is another matter!

the huge force generated by this woofer allows it to achieve excellent low frequency performance in a box massively smaller than most other woofers.
although in theory a low displacement woofer will have lower THD (all things being equal) the fact that you don't have 20+ square foot of wood vibrating away is a huge advantage.
smaller boxes have a lot less panel resonance.
the other mitigating factor is the very long gap, this gives a very shallow BL curve which reduces distortion at realistic SPL levels,
it would be easy to give this woofer a published Xmax of 25mm but the performance in real world would be worse!

and yes 54v will be amp limiting, i have tested it at 115v per coil,
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post #15 of 582 Old 01-19-2018, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
I can confirm the driver can do Peak to Peak excursion in excess of 91mm,
the surround is not limiting, this would lead to excessive distortion,

a heavy VC is not necessarily a problem, excess Mms and 'dead mass' certainly is an issue, but remember that the more wire in the coil the more force.
high Mms helps achieve a low in-box tuning, there is no way around this.
the most intelligent way to add mass is to increase the VC wire length, as you are adding mass and force,

it's like engine weight in cars, a 200kg engine with 100bhp is going to be very slow, but a 200kg engine with 600bhp is another matter!

the huge force generated by this woofer allows it to achieve excellent low frequency performance in a box massively smaller than most other woofers.
although in theory a low displacement woofer will have lower THD (all things being equal) the fact that you don't have 20+ square foot of wood vibrating away is a huge advantage.
smaller boxes have a lot less panel resonance.
the other mitigating factor is the very long gap, this gives a very shallow BL curve which reduces distortion at realistic SPL levels,
it would be easy to give this woofer a published Xmax of 25mm but the performance in real world would be worse!

and yes 54v will be amp limiting, i have tested it at 115v per coil,
Hi George,

Welcome to AVS

Maybe a disclosure that you work for Tymphany may be useful

The weight does matter, hence the low sensitivity. Not enough motor force was gained to offset the weight and efficiency suffered.

54v free air is quite a bit, though may not push this beyond xmax. I haven't modeled that. It would probably depend on the frequency.

How tall is the surround on these from the basket? None of the technical drawings have a dimension on that.

Would you mind sharing some of the klippel tests for this unit to give a better understanding of all around performance?

"although in theory a low displacement woofer will have lower THD (all things being equal) the fact that you don't have 20+ square foot of wood vibrating away is a huge advantage."

Also, not sure what you're trying to say here, the phrasing is odd. Building an adequately braced enclosure is trivial.
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post #16 of 582 Old 01-19-2018, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
54v free air is quite a bit, though may not push this beyond xmax. I haven't modeled that. It would probably depend on the frequency.




Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
although in theory a low displacement woofer will have lower THD (all things being equal) the fact that you don't have 20+ square foot of wood vibrating away is a huge advantage.
smaller boxes have a lot less panel resonance.
Also not too sure exactly what you mean by this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
it would be easy to give this woofer a published Xmax of 25mm but the performance in real world would be worse!
I'm very confused why you guys have this driver rated at a 10.4mm xmax yet advertise that it can go in a small enclosure and be pushed to 45mm. How small of an enclosure was it tested in while hitting these numbers and about how much THD was it producing?
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post #17 of 582 Old 01-19-2018, 04:51 PM
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I'm very confused why you guys have this driver rated at a 10.4mm xmax yet advertise that it can go in a small enclosure and be pushed to 45mm. How small of an enclosure was it tested in while hitting these numbers and about how much THD was it producing?
coil overhang

58mm coil, 36mm gap
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coil overhang
58mm coil, 36mm gap
So I guess you won't be getting your klippel data.
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So I guess you won't be getting your klippel data.
wat?

Also, models a little different for me at 54v in free air...



still curious about the measurement on the height of the surround.
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wat?
If they're listing xmax based on the coil length and gap, while stating that it stays linear to 45.5mm they probably didn't have it klippeled yet is my guess. I'll re-check my parameters in winisd later this weekend.
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post #21 of 582 Old 01-19-2018, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
If they're listing xmax based on the coil length and gap, while stating that it stays linear to 45.5mm they probably didn't have it klippeled yet is my guess.
Ah, I see.

He mentioned elsewhere that they choose to publish xmax as overhang to avoid confusion, but publish Hc and Hg as well and that they have klippel tested it. Hopefully we can see some of the results.

That surround would need to be like 2" tall off the frame to meet those numbers. The coil would still be 1mm in the gap. If it does, it's impressive in that regard. Unfortunately, the efficiency still makes me sad.
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post #22 of 582 Old 01-20-2018, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
That surround would need to be like 2" tall off the frame to meet those numbers. The coil would still be 1mm in the gap. If it does, it's impressive in that regard. Unfortunately, the efficiency still makes me sad.
Hoffman's Iron Law. Efficiency might not be 101 dB but the enclosure size also isn't 15 ft^3.
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post #23 of 582 Old 01-21-2018, 08:30 AM
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hi Guys, a lot of questions! i'll try to answer as many as possible!

first off, yes i am involved with Tymphany, the STW is actually my concept and i was steering the design.

yes, we have had the driver on klippel, probably a few hundred time over the development, we're not against publishing the data, but we have had some issues with the klippel system measuring at these power and excursion levels. we're working through those with Klippel themselves and aim to publish data once the measurement issues are resolved.
I'd be highly skeptical of anyone developing transducers who don't have frequent access to a klippel test rig.
also bear in mind it's a hugely flexible piece of test equipment, you can use it to give 2 seemingly very different sets of results depending on how you set it up,
i can confirm that we've had 91.x mm P-P repeatedly from the STW using the Klippel system.

Xmax, the most abused spec after power!
there are many ways to describe Xmax, some make sense, some do not, but they vary a lot!
none of them really tell you how far the driver can move in use, - there are too many variables.
the most honest way is to give Gap length, coil length, VC overhang, or from 2 of these you can calc the other,
this however doesn't give a headline figure,
remember that for a subwoofer, high Xmax is not always relevant, as the driver will see significant excursion in average use.
more important is the width of the BL curve at moderate excursion. the shape of BL curve, and how this balances with the compliance/inductance non-linearity,
we compared the current design to one with the same VC length and Xmax (VC overhang) of 25, and the 25mm xmax driver performed worse, in any real world conditions .

sensitivity for subwoofers - the most mis-understood parameter!
published sensitivty can be defined a variety of ways, some honest and some very much not!
we have found in real world testing that other manufacturers drivers show up to 3dB higher on the spec sheet than in real life,
we publish both 1w/1m and also 2.83v/1m which is what most companies use,
2.83v is only accurate for an 8 ohm driver... a real 8ohm, not a 5 ohm DCR woofer described as 8ohm!
but anyway..
for subwoofers all these measurements are pointless....
the spec sensitivty quoted everywhere is a mid-band sensitivity figure,
and nobodyy uses a subwoofer at these frequencies,

even a sensitivity at 50hz or 100hz would be fairly pointless on it's own, as they are taken in an 1/2 space environment, (no box)
to give an example, take any pro PA woofer, from any manufacturer, even a TYMPHANY one like NCP1540, this has very high published sensitivity which is fine as it's designed to be used at low and mid frequencies,
now put it in a small box, and measure the sensitivity at 40Hz, as you need for subwoofer use... somewhere along the way a boat-load of sensitivty got lost !

you can only compare sensitivity of subwoofers in-box and at the frequencies that you'll be using,

the STW has great sensitivity in a small box at true subwoofer frequencies, where it will be used.


Simulations -
nearly all of the simulation tools on the market either just use the TS parameters and assume these apply at all excursions, or they apply some rule of thumb assumptions,
this is ok for most regular mid-woofers, but falls over with the unusual designs like very small or very large voice coils, many subwoofers etc etc.
if you really want to konw how far the driver moves in-box, build a box and try it!
the simulations are good to get an aproximate box size/tuning, but then you need to prototype, this applies to any drivers made anywhere,
also measure your own TS parameters, if you have a consistent reliable way to do so,
I see a lot of lower cost drivers with totally bogus specs! or where the batch to batch variation is so bad that the spec sheet parameters are pointless.
very few manufacturers give tolerance on their specs, this applies to a lot of high end companies too!

surround height, i don't have the measurements to hand, but go measure a driver, the surround is not tight, even at +/-45mm.

my earlier comments about panel size:
the panels of an 8 cu ft enclosure has 29x the area (Sd) compared to the driver,
this means that even a tiny displacement in the panels can produce SPL that is significant and undesired,
reducing the cabinet to 2 cu ft reduces that ratio to 11, so basically a factor of 3 reduction in panel area, that combined with the inherent stiffness improvement in the smaller cabinet, makes for a quite audible difference,
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post #24 of 582 Old 01-21-2018, 08:32 AM
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also worth saying,
I use this driver in a ~60L sealed box, and it's so much cleaner that everything i've heard before,
the advantage to me, of using it this way is that i can have 2 subs instead of 1, which has a lot of benefits,
a bigger box would limit me to one sub.
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post #25 of 582 Old 01-21-2018, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
also worth saying,
I use this driver in a ~60L sealed box, and it's so much cleaner that everything i've heard before,
the advantage to me, of using it this way is that i can have 2 subs instead of 1, which has a lot of benefits,
a bigger box would limit me to one sub.
What amplifier are you using with this driver, and what is the Vpeak it is capable of? Sorry to hear that 120L is your maximum allowable box size, some of us have multiple ~550L + enclosures.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
What amplifier are you using with this driver, and what is the Vpeak it is capable of? Sorry to hear that 120L is your maximum allowable box size, some of us have multiple ~550L + enclosures.
I've used a variety of amplifiers,
for testing i love the old Crown Machrotech series, MA3600VZ etc.. they are fairly indestructible, but fan is too loud for a listening room,
i've also use Labgruppen and others, from memory the Labgruppen will deliver 195v RMS per channel !

i'd expect the usual suspects of high power plate amps would also work well...
most likely 1 amp channel for each of the 4 ohm voice coils.

you can use this in boxes larger than 120L, even infinite baffle or free air will work, but you will miss some of the advantage of this design .
that said, i'd expect it'd sound epic in a 500L + cabinet,
the other solution is to put 2 or 4 woofers in the cabinet! now that i would like to hear!
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post #27 of 582 Old 01-21-2018, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore
the STW has great sensitivity in a small box at true subwoofer frequencies, where it will be used.

Tests of the SVS sub show otherwise. You should send a driver to @Ricci so he can test at data-bass.

Interesting re: the surround, it didn't look that tall. I'll likely run across one of these at some point soon to play with.
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post #28 of 582 Old 01-21-2018, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
we have had some issues with the klippel system measuring at these power and excursion levels. we're working through those with Klippel themselves and aim to publish data once the measurement issues are resolved.
I'd be highly skeptical of anyone developing transducers who don't have frequent access to a klippel test rig.
What are the issues?

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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
there are many ways to describe Xmax, some make sense, some do not, but they vary a lot!
none of them really tell you how far the driver can move in use, - there are too many variables.
remember that for a subwoofer, high Xmax is not always relevant, as the driver will see significant excursion in average use.
You state over 45mm of linear excursion. Surely you have data and tests to arrive at this conclusion. Please show them. Usable excursion isn't all that mysterious of a thing... you advertise your product for a small enclosure... Load it in a small enclosure and measure THD. When THD goes sky high, just before that will be the limit of usable excursion, measure the excursion and publish the test. Pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
we compared the current design to one with the same VC length and Xmax (VC overhang) of 25, and the 25mm xmax driver performed worse, in any real world conditions .
"performed worse" -What testing methodology was used? Was the compared driver also fit for a small box? Did it also have a large diameter VC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
sensitivity for subwoofers - the most mis-understood parameter!
for subwoofers all these measurements are pointless....
the spec sensitivty quoted everywhere is a mid-band sensitivity figure,
and nobodyy uses a subwoofer at these frequencies,
I agree 100% with this. There really needs to be a new metric for sub driver sensitivity IMO. In your driver's case sensitivity is not an important spec (IMO) because it's designed to take so much power. It all comes down to how much it can throw before violently producing non-linear distortion.

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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
my earlier comments about panel size:
the panels of an 8 cu ft enclosure has 29x the area (Sd) compared to the driver,
this means that even a tiny displacement in the panels can produce SPL that is significant and undesired,
reducing the cabinet to 2 cu ft reduces that ratio to 11, so basically a factor of 3 reduction in panel area, that combined with the inherent stiffness improvement in the smaller cabinet, makes for a quite audible difference,
In my experience panel movement is not a significant enough issue to even mention with high excursion drivers unless the box resonance is in the sub band which is pretty much never. Give us DIYers some credit at least for our build quality.
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post #29 of 582 Old 01-22-2018, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Tests of the SVS sub show otherwise. You should send a driver to @Ricci so he can test at data-bass.

Interesting re: the surround, it didn't look that tall. I'll likely run across one of these at some point soon to play with.
The Tymphany STW is quite different to the SVS driver, i wouldn't draw conclusions from one and apply to the other,
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post #30 of 582 Old 01-22-2018, 04:03 AM
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different how exactly? the conclusions were from modeling in hornresp as well.

any plans for larger diameter drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Tests of the SVS sub show otherwise. You should send a driver to @Ricci so he can test at data-bass.

Interesting re: the surround, it didn't look that tall. I'll likely run across one of these at some point soon to play with.
The Tymphany STW is quite different to the SVS driver, i wouldn't draw conclusions from one and apply to the other,
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