New sub build, Dayton UM10-22 w/Passive Rads - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 02-04-2018, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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New sub build, Dayton UM10-22 w/Passive Rads

Hello everyone,

Here is where I am on day two of my first sub build,



I am building a 1.7 cubic foot box out of 1" MDF with a Dayton UM10-22 subwoofer and two Dayton RSS265-PR passive radiators. I will be using a Dayton SPA250DSP amp to power the sub.

I have all the sides cut to size, cut the holes and rebates for the drivers with a home made circle jig and a 1/2" spiral carbide bit in a plunge router, marked with a transfer punch and drilled for all the T-nuts secured with truss head screws, glued in place with biscuits additional 1"x1" MDF on 12 of the edges for 2" of glue area where the sides meet.

This is just a dry fit tonight.

I hope to glue four of the sides together tomorrow.
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-04-2018, 11:08 PM
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Nice change of pace from a typical ported sub. It's been a few years but I built a similar (well, crappier) 10" sub but it used three passive radiators. It was unnecessary of course, just did it for fun. Turned out great though. PR designs can really reduce the total required speaker volume since you don't have to account for port volume. So that tiny 1.7 cu.ft. box will produce surprisingly more bass than it seems like it should given its size. Have you worked out the mass requirements for the PRs? One suggestion, if you haven't purchased the amp yet, and you'd like to stick with a plate amp, you may want to consider the SPA500DSP. It won't be out for another month still, but that gives you some time to finish the box. The driver can handle the power no question. You may be disappointed with only 250W on that Ultimax. But it is more $. Maybe lose the DSP option if it's not in the budget? Keep us updated, looks like a fun build!

http://danmarx.org/audioinnovation/10triple10.html (this was 19 years ago - I ended up selling that sub at a garage sale for $10).

Dan
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post #3 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 11:14 AM
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Definitely a cool change of pace! Looking forward to updates.
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post #4 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 04:07 PM
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This looks awesome.
I haven't been on the forum very long, and I haven't seen a passive radiator design before.
@aktiondan said it reduces required enclosure volume. How do the PR's work? Does a PR sub's response roll off like a sealed subwoofer, just deeper?

Thanks,
Dan

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post #5 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
This looks awesome.
I haven't been on the forum very long, and I haven't seen a passive radiator design before.
@aktiondan said it reduces required enclosure volume. How do the PR's work? Does a PR sub's response roll off like a sealed subwoofer, just deeper?

Thanks,
Dan

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
Passive radiators act as ports. They have tuning, and drop like a rock after tune.
Danger of driver damage below tune is possible.

The benefit is without ports it is possible to get more output in the same size box.
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post #6 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 06:51 PM
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The design enclosure volume is similar to a vented enclosure (as is the tuning frequency), but the gross external enclosure volume can be smaller since the port volume does not need to be subtracted out. This can be significant for large ports in small enclosures with very low tuning. That's all I was saying. Roll-off for PR designs is actually worse than a vented design due to the Fp of the radiators creating another notch in the FR below Fb. Only a sealed design or TL design have 12 dB/octave or better roll-off characteristics.

But if you can push PR Fp as low as possible that will improve the roll-off make it behave more like a 4th order vented enclosure. You can accomplish that with low tuning, using two PRs (the mass basically doubles per PR to achieve the same Fb) and by using PRs with a high compliance. There's plenty of calculators out there for determining box volume and tuning but I created a simple spreadsheet years ago to help with calculating PR mass.

DaveFred, have you run this design through any modeling software like WinISD or Unibox? Just curious to see what your target response looks like.
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post #7 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 07:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I might be over building this,

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post #8 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aktiondan View Post
DaveFred, have you run this design through any modeling software like WinISD or Unibox? Just curious to see what your target response looks like.


I don't know if this looks good or bad, I don't really know what I am doing, this is my first subwoofer build.

Last edited by DaveFred; 02-05-2018 at 08:30 PM.
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post #9 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 09:00 PM
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That is some fancy joinery work there! There is no such thing as overbuilding. Your design has piqued my interest and that FR plot left me wanting more...so I went ahead and modeled the design a bit further (using Unibox). It's just because I'm bored and I enjoy seeing what different sub designs can do. Sooo...

A 10" Ultimax in a 48L enclosure with two 10" Dayton References PRs should be able to produce 107 dB at 23 Hz with 500W using a tuning frequency of 23 Hz which results in an F3 of 21 Hz. PR mass needs to be 500g (4 disks) for a 23 Hz tune resulting in a Fpr of 12 Hz. Excursion of both driver and PR reach Xmax/mech pretty much right at 20 Hz which is reasonable for this design. FR is flat with no bump/peaking though rolloff below Fb is steep but typical for passive radiator designs. This is a great design overall and the real thing to consider is that the box is just a simple cube not much larger than the diameter of the drivers themselves. In contrast a ported design (if port air speed is actually considered) results in an enclosure that is 50% larger just to accommodate port volume. F3 is slightly better with the ported design just because the rolloff is shallower, but it comes at a significant enclosure size penalty. So overall, this should be a great design.

Also, that was just one modeled option: a 23 Hz tune using 4 of the provided mass disks with the PRs, but if you use all 5 disks the resulting f3 drops to 20 Hz with a 21 Hz Fb and xmax isn't reached until you get below 19 Hz. You lose about a dB in overall output above Fb but room gain should more than make up for it. You can tune higher as well and lose some f3 while gaining some output, but everything is a trade off at this point between efficiency and low end response given the defined enclosure volume. I'd definitely consider upping the amplifier power though. This sub will want at least 500W rms to really get moving.
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post #10 of 23 Old 02-05-2018, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aktiondan View Post
That is some fancy joinery work there! There is no such thing as overbuilding. Your design has piqued my interest and that FR plot left me wanting more...so I went ahead and modeled the design a bit further (using Unibox). It's just because I'm bored and I enjoy seeing what different sub designs can do. Sooo...

A 10" Ultimax in a 48L enclosure with two 10" Dayton References PRs should be able to produce 107 dB at 23 Hz with 500W using a tuning frequency of 23 Hz which results in an F3 of 21 Hz. PR mass needs to be 500g (4 disks) for a 23 Hz tune resulting in a Fpr of 12 Hz. Excursion of both driver and PR reach Xmax/mech pretty much right at 20 Hz which is reasonable for this design. FR is flat with no bump/peaking though rolloff below Fb is steep but typical for passive radiator designs. This is a great design overall and the real thing to consider is that the box is just a simple cube not much larger than the diameter of the drivers themselves. In contrast a ported design (if port air speed is actually considered) results in an enclosure that is 50% larger just to accommodate port volume. F3 is slightly better with the ported design just because the rolloff is shallower, but it comes at a significant enclosure size penalty. So overall, this should be a great design.

Also, that was just one modeled option: a 23 Hz tune using 4 of the provided mass disks with the PRs, but if you use all 5 disks the resulting f3 drops to 20 Hz with a 21 Hz Fb and xmax isn't reached until you get below 19 Hz. You lose about a dB in overall output above Fb but room gain should more than make up for it. You can tune higher as well and lose some f3 while gaining some output, but everything is a trade off at this point between efficiency and low end response given the defined enclosure volume. I'd definitely consider upping the amplifier power though. This sub will want at least 500W rms to really get moving.
Thank you for the reply.

I usually build kitchens or furniture which don't have to be air tight, so I might be taking this air tight super strong box thing a little far.

I was a little underwhelmed with the 10" Polk sub I bought so I decided to read up about them and build one. I spent about 2 weeks here and there reading about subs and playing with WINisd before I settled on this setup. My biggest design restraint was size, I wanted the most boom in the smallest box.

I think I should be fine with the 250 watts for now (I can always upgrade the amp) as this is for my computer which does not have to be super loud, I don't think I will miss the extra 3db, but who knows until I plug it in .

David.
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post #11 of 23 Old 02-06-2018, 03:27 PM
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impressive design....20hz from a 10in is incredible. please keep us up to date as you go!
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-06-2018, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I think this needs more biscuits...

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Last edited by DaveFred; 02-06-2018 at 06:35 PM.
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post #13 of 23 Old 02-06-2018, 06:38 PM - Thread Starter
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A little squeeze out...

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post #14 of 23 Old 02-06-2018, 08:00 PM
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I'm really excited about this thread and your build, @DaveFred
I'd like to do something VERY similar some day. I've got a Def Tech Reference Sub, that is basically the same layout with one high-excursion driver and two Passive Radiators on each side, and a plate amp on the back. It's quite loud, but sometimes lacks refinement. I had a Klipsch RSW-10d with one driver and one pr. It was deep and loud and had serious punch for such a small sub. THAT's what I'd like to replicate. I bet you'll be pretty close!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aktiondan View Post
... PR mass needs to be 500g (4 disks) for a 23 Hz tune resulting in a Fpr of 12 Hz...
Wow!? Seriously? That's a pound of weight. Or half a kilogram! Just sounds like a lot. Is that 500g on each PR? Man, that just seems really heavy.

HT setup: Vizio 50" 4K | Xbox & PS3 | Pioneer Elite VSX-94TX | Bose 701 towers (V1) | JBL S Center | Def Tech Reference SuperCube & DIY Nearfield cabinet ported UM18 dual ported PA380 ULF+MBM
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-06-2018, 09:37 PM
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..........and the clamp award goes to....

Nice passives. I didn't know PE even had those models. Nice build. Great 10" driver.
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post #16 of 23 Old 02-07-2018, 03:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Just weighed the box, it weighs 40lbs, lol...

I had someone ask me if I braced the box internally, and suggested I should have a brace between the two flat sides to avoid resonance. Could a box this small, heavy and thick have the sides (top and bottom) vibrate?

David.

Last edited by DaveFred; 02-07-2018 at 03:26 PM.
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post #17 of 23 Old 02-07-2018, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFred View Post
I wanted the most boom in the smallest box.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aktiondan View Post
You can tune higher as well and lose some f3 while gaining some output, but everything is a trade off at this point between efficiency and low end response given the defined enclosure volume.
Well, there is also a tradeoff in the time response/ringing/"tightness" of the sound. DaveFred, presuming you don't really want BOOM but rather good bass, I'd try to have the most drooping response possible. Vaguely speaking:
- more and more peaking in the response means more and more boominess in the time domain
- the slower the rolloff, i.e. more like a sealed box, the tighter the sound will tend to be...more like a sealed box!
Sorry, I do not remember offhand how to tune lower and lower without adding more and more mass. I suspect that more radiators need more and more mass, which is too bad because more radiators give more surface area. With so much weight, I would want them vertical, and rotate them periodically. I would not want them facing up or down due to gravity displacement.
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post #18 of 23 Old 02-07-2018, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I really meant I was going for the best compact sub I could make...

The cabinet is done,



I started to wrap the cabinet with gloss black Formica, but I only did three sides tonight, ran out of contact cement and time..

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post #19 of 23 Old 02-09-2018, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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I filed all the laminate tonight, added the feet and painted the front and openings with Duratex.

Might actually get to see what it sounds like soon








David.
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post #20 of 23 Old 02-10-2018, 08:05 AM
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Looks awesome! Can't wait to see what it looks like with the drivers installed. You'll have to share your thoughts on how it sounds when you're done. Do you happen to have any measurement gear? Would be fun to see some plots. I know you said this is just a computer subwoofer but this thing would be quite decent in a modest home theater. It's got me thinking about doing a similar build, again.
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post #21 of 23 Old 02-10-2018, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aktiondan View Post
Looks awesome! Can't wait to see what it looks like with the drivers installed. You'll have to share your thoughts on how it sounds when you're done. Do you happen to have any measurement gear? Would be fun to see some plots. I know you said this is just a computer subwoofer but this thing would be quite decent in a modest home theater. It's got me thinking about doing a similar build, again.
I do have a UMIK-1 that I plan on using to tune the sub. I will post results.

David.
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post #22 of 23 Old 02-11-2018, 07:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is the sub all done,



I will start a new thread about tuning...

(I hope that is okay)
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post #23 of 23 Old 02-12-2018, 06:05 AM
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Here is the sub all done,



I will start a new thread about tuning...

(I hope that is okay)
Nice job. Your cab looks great!
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