Cheap and small Tapped Horn - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 02-06-2018, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Cheap and small Tapped Horn

I finished my cabinet with one UM18 and two PA380s a year ago and I've been itching for something else to build. But we had a baby in October, so my budget for a fun build is basically nil. I got interested in tapped horn subwoofers, and multiple entry horn speakers so I decided, if I could, to build some of those as CHEAPLY as possibly. Just to be clear, low cost is my MAIN goal. And if it can sound good or at least decent I'll be thrilled. Maybe these will just be test beds for future bigger projects.

So first off - a mini tapped horn. Clicking through parts-express I couldn't help but like the no-name, $5.88, 6.5" poly cone midbass woofer. So cheap! I could build anything with that! And if nothing works and it's a waste of time, at least it's barely a waste of money, and I'll be learning. Reviews were really good for such a cheap driver, how could I go wrong?

So I bought six of them.


(pic of 209-699)

Now one thing I learned is that tapped horns don't need as many watts or as much excursion to get decent dB. So I figured why not try to build one with this cheap woofer. Just for fun. To be honest I didn't even bother modeling a horn with this driver in Hornresp until today, weeks after buying them.

And we come to my models. First is the model Hornresp gave me with the initial parameters that I fed into the program. (following some threads here by @lilmike and one on hometheatershack)
Not too great looking. A pretty ridiculous peak at 65Hz and just up and down from there.





Anyway, I just started playing with the parameters. First changing L23 (overall length), then changing S1, S2, S3 and S4. (as suggested by lilmike)
Now at first I didn't realize that changing these would make the expansion of the horn change at different rates.
All I was doing was looking for a good Frequency Response. And this is what I got:





Seemed pretty good to me, until I looked at the schematic and found it wasn't really a horn with constant taper any more, just a constant radius pathway. It seems more like a transmission line.
But the frequency response in the Power graph looks really good. Smooth from 35Hz - 100Hz, 106db of output with +/- 3db in that range. Excursion looks good too. Only up to 8mm (xmax is 3.5mm). This is with a full 30watts (11V). :-)
I suppose it really wouldn't be that small - 3.5 cubic feet / 100 liters.

So, is this design any good? Why not try building it if Hornresp shows a decent FR? Or is there something I'm missing?
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-08-2018, 01:19 PM
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Have you looked at lilmikes t60?

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post #3 of 23 Old 02-08-2018, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
Have you looked at lilmikes t60?
Hey, I have looked at a lot of his threads and have used a lot of his information to start thinking about my plans. Using horn resp and thinking about how to build the actual box. But I can't find a thread for the T-60 that you're talking about . I think I have seen it before. But I don't really know much about it right off. do you have a link to that thread? The forum makes it hard to search for any word with only 3 letters saying the word is not long enough. so T 60 does not give any results.

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post #4 of 23 Old 02-08-2018, 03:36 PM
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The T60 is a BFM design.

The T6 is Lilmikes design.
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post #5 of 23 Old 02-08-2018, 05:48 PM
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Good looking out...t6. There's so many sub designs out there lol.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...topics/1358033

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post #6 of 23 Old 02-08-2018, 08:03 PM
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And dont forget about the Anarchy sub. I may build one of those very soon.
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post #7 of 23 Old 02-09-2018, 01:35 PM
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Lightbulb

You need to correct Re (6 subs do not = 3.37 ohms) and Driver Arrangement.
Based on your 3.37 Re, I wired the speakers 2 parallel and 3 series to get 5.06 ohms.
I set this model up with all 6 drivers physically inline.
I totally forgot that I could place the drivers 2 x 3 or 3 x 2 to shorten up L12 and L34!
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post #8 of 23 Old 02-09-2018, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
You need to correct Re (6 subs do not = 3.37 ohms) and Driver Arrangement.
Based on your 3.37 Re, I wired the speakers 2 parallel and 3 series to get 5.06 ohms.
I set this model up with all 6 drivers physically inline.
I totally forgot that I could place the drivers 2 x 3 or 3 x 2 to shorten up L12 and L34!
Thanks for those insights and giving me ideas I was actually modeling just one because I wanted to try it with just one woofer (or maybe two). The others are just extras for other projects.
Now you did make me wonder what it would look like if I used two or more (maybe even all 6).
Yea, I'll have to try modeling that

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post #9 of 23 Old 02-09-2018, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
You need to correct Re (6 subs do not = 3.37 ohms) and Driver Arrangement.
Based on your 3.37 Re, I wired the speakers 2 parallel and 3 series to get 5.06 ohms.
I set this model up with all 6 drivers physically inline.
I totally forgot that I could place the drivers 2 x 3 or 3 x 2 to shorten up L12 and L34!
So I just realized that you had attached a model from hornresp. Sorry I missed that.

I see what you mean. Extension would get down to 30Hz with that configuration. BUT, the box in your model is huge (at least 18 cu feet) - that's too big for me. Like I said (and maybe I didn't make it clear in the first post) I'm really only planning on using maybe one or two drivers in this horn. So if possible under 3 cu ft with one driver. (that way if it sounds good I could make 2 or 4 of them to spread around the room for multiple sources of bass). Maybe up to 5 or 6 cu ft for 2 drivers.

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post #10 of 23 Old 02-09-2018, 04:39 PM
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Yeah, plug in 1/6 of the area for each segment and switch Re back to 3.37 ohms for 1 speaker and see what you get.

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post #11 of 23 Old 02-10-2018, 12:30 AM
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The ATC should be at least equal to the SD and the VTC should be roughly double the ATC. They should NOT be zero.

I assume you've used winISD to calculate the driver unknowns, I don't see the mms listed etc...
https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-...4-ohm--299-609

If you do that, the modelling you do will probably be more accurate.
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-11-2018, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The ATC should be at least equal to the SD and the VTC should be roughly double the ATC. They should NOT be zero.

I assume you've used winISD to calculate the driver unknowns, I don't see the mms listed etc...
https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-...4-ohm--299-609

If you do that, the modelling you do will probably be more accurate.
EXACTLY! My ATC is 6 x SD. VTC is ATC x 1.905cm (0.75" wood).

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post #13 of 23 Old 02-11-2018, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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@BassThatHz & @BP1Fanatic

Thank you guys so much for the tips. I used WinISD a lot, so I'm familiar with how it works. But Hornresp is new to me, so I'm still trying to learn what the input parameters mean, what they need to look like and how I can manipulate them to do what I want.
Weekends are busy for me, so as soon as I have some free time I'll get back into Hornresp and try using some of the info you've shared! Thanks!

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post #14 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I've got a Sketchup design I want to build, but thought I'd post it here first to run it by you guys.
Any feedback is welcome!

This is for ONE PE 6.5" poly-cone diver (#209-699 - $6).

These are the parameters I used (yes, @BassThatHz I checked the parameters in WinISD this time, it did change things a bit, but not too much)

Driver Parameters
From Parts Express
Sd 160cm2
Re 3.37 Ohm
FS 52Hz
Vas 18.4 liters (0.65 ft3)
Qes 1.4
Qms 2.99
Le 0.48mH
Pmax 30w
Xmax 3.5mm
Driver diameter 6.5"

From WinISD
Qts = 0.954
Mms = 18.5g
Cms = 0.5067mm/N
Rms = 2.02028 N s/m
Vd = 0.1 L
BL = 3.81323 Tm
Dd = 0.143m
Znom = 3.37Ohm

These are the dimensions I came up with in Hornresp
(my main design goals were 1. Not too big - trying to make this cheap, 2. simple to build and 3. Decent response from 30Hz-100Hz, not output)

Shcematic for 75L Tapped Horn
S1-S4 = cross section area
S1 = 40cm2 = 6.2"2
S2 = 320cm2 = 49.6"2 (7x7")
S3 = 320cm2 = 49.6"2
S4 = 320cm2 = 49.6"2
L12, L23, L34 = Length of 3 horn sections
L12 = 24cm = 9 1/2"
L23 = 200cm = 78 3/4"
L34 = 24cm = 9 1/2"
Horn length = 248cm = 97 1/2"

and here are some pics of Hornresp and Sketchup







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post #15 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 11:00 AM
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What happens to the response if you make S4 = 600.00?

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post #16 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
What happens to the response if you make S4 = 600.00?
I played around with all the figures and dimensions quite a bit. Opening up the mouth didn't make much of a difference in my tests. Neither did anything else without going huge on the enclosure.

Here's what an S4 of 600cm2 (red) looks like versus what I have, S4 = 320cm2 (grey):



Slightly more output, but only from 50-100Hz. Below that it's the same, even lose a bit at 30Hz. Even going up to 100L for the Horn size/volume only nets 2-3dB, but you lose extension - the LF cutoff is around 34Hz instead of 30Hz at least in my designs (see first post).

So I'd prefer to build the 75L box than the 100L box. Like I said, I'm just trying out a tapped horn design for fun.
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post #17 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 06:24 PM
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That's the weirdest looking box i have ever seen.

It just looks: wrong.

I think 7x7 is a big mistake. Try resketchuping it as 23x2.13 instead...
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post #18 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 06:38 PM
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I'm thinking 2 or 4 6.5's wide would sound more "correct" for a TH.
Adjust the sd and re and atc and vtc accordingly...

You can leave the re alone, but then you'll have to power each box with a 2 or 4 channel amp etc...
(i.e. I'm not sure how the le changes with re in a series wiring... without woofer-testering it in the actual box without making firewood, or with making firewood )

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post #19 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz
"The ATC should be at least equal to the SD and the VTC should be roughly double the ATC. They should NOT be zero.

I assume you've used winISD to calculate the driver unknowns, I don't see the mms listed etc...
https://www.parts-express.com/6-1-2-...4-ohm--299-609

If you do that, the modelling you do will probably be more accurate."

EXACTLY! My ATC is 6 x SD. VTC is ATC x 1.905cm (0.75" wood).
There's so much to keep in mind for horn design and it's all new to me. But the reason I had Atc and Vtc at zero, was because lilmike had specified them to be zero in tapped horns. Changing those values didn't seem to affect my design or power graphs too much either. He says tapped horns have no throat chamber ... so.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-hornresp.html (part ways down the 2nd post)

"A tapped horn can not have a rear chamber, enter zeroes in Vrc and Lrc. We are not using a throat chamber either, so enter zeroes in Vtc and Atc as well."

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post #20 of 23 Old 05-08-2018, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That's the weirdest looking box i have ever seen.

It just looks: wrong.
I KNOW! And I don't exactly understand it, but those are the dimensions that give me the "best" frequency response AND keep the box "small-ish".

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I think 7x7 is a big mistake. Try resketchuping it as 23x2.13 instead...
To be honest, I don't quite follow. The S1, S2, S3 and S4 dimensions ONLY care about the cross sectional area, right? So why should it care if it is 23x2.13 or 7x7 ?? Just like a port in a vented box, doesn't care if it is 36x1 or 6x6 (at least disregarding port noise).

I just tried to make it as simple to build as possible. If the speaker mounting depth is 2.875" ( ~ 3") would'nt the smallest dimension of the horn have to be at least 3" for the driver to fit. So I don't think 23x2.13 will even work because the driver won't fit.

from @lilmike
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post #21 of 23 Old 05-09-2018, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
There's so much to keep in mind for horn design and it's all new to me. But the reason I had Atc and Vtc at zero, was because lilmike had specified them to be zero in tapped horns. Changing those values didn't seem to affect my design or power graphs too much either. He says tapped horns have no throat chamber ... so.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-hornresp.html (part ways down the 2nd post)

"A tapped horn can not have a rear chamber, enter zeroes in Vrc and Lrc. We are not using a throat chamber either, so enter zeroes in Vtc and Atc as well."
I beg to differ.
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-09-2018, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
ONLY care about the cross sectional area, right?
In theory: yes...

I guess there is really only one way to find out if it is firewood or not. Build and Measure it. hehe

It looks like a TL/TH hybrid though (i.e. it looks weird). You'll almost have to name it the: unhorn-horn.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-11-2018, 11:29 AM
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Issue you'll find with using those drivers in a "smallish" enclosure, of pretty much any type, are the high Q numbers.
what you have modeled is sometimes referenced as a Tapped Quarter Wave Pipe, Bjorno over on diyaudio recommends them often. think of it as TL meets TH.

you may be able to use the workbooks here: http://www.diysubwoofers.org/sheets/ to explore different types of folds

think it's a pretty cool "fun" experiment, look forward to seeing the outcome
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