Small yet Mighty. The tale of the 12's - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Small yet Mighty. The tale of the 12's

Foreword:

I'm a guy who likes to go into detail. The devil and the beauty is in the details, small and large. The backstory in my mind is always important as it sets the stage for what's to come and to provide insight into why certain choices were made. This thread will, like all my others, be a slow burn. My builds are intentional. They progress slowly, after much internal angst and debate, complicated by my insane need to account for all variables, and over-complicate things .


If you want to skip the backstory, but why would you, click on the appropriate link below.

Organ Donor Build
Yet to be named build
2019-07-19 EQ Attempt 1
2019-07-20 EQ Attempt 2
2019-07-25 EQ Attempt 3

Chapter 1: The Quest is born, and a Champion emerges from the forge!

The Quest

I fit in well here. I love BASS. I've been to Mike's @eng-399 twice and each time I left wishing I could get 1/10th the sound he gets. Then I made the mistake of visiting "The Savoy", where a gracious @dlbeck confirmed the reality lived up to the hype. It didn’t help. On my bucket list is visiting Luke @lukeamdman, and attending some of the other GTG's that happen out Iowa/MN way. All these guys have SPECTACULAR dedicated theaters. I dont. I console myself with the fact that we are in the top 1% of basshead crazy, but those guys I mentioned above…. They are the 1%, OF THE 1%.

My wife is not a Basshead. If you look at the threads I've posted over the years, you will see I've thrown just about EVERY idea at the wall trying to emulate most of you guys. None stuck……….

In late October of 2017, we visited my good friend in Iowa (@ZLTFUL). He's a fellow bass nut, and we get along great. He was using 3 SVS cylinder subs with his JTR Triple 8's. While visiting my wife commented that she LIKED (or could tolerate more) the SVS cylinders. Wasting no time, I got her to agree to allow me to copy his layout, and keep the nearfield sub that is hidden behind our sectional. In return I had to sell my UM18 first, and self-fund the build. A deal was made. The QUEST HAD BEGUN!

A CHAMPION IS FORGED

I had acquired 2 backup Infinity's for my nearfield sub. I researched the SVS PC-12NSD to get its dimensions and port tuning. I then attempted to emulate it in WinISD using the Infinity 1260/1262.

The Infinity modeled well in a 16" in diameter 32" tall Sonotube ported to about 19 Hz. Port velocity was in check, with decent SPL. The ports fit, barely, but it would work. Big shout out to @LTD02 for answering a TON of questions about my builds and letting me bounce ideas off of him.

All that was left was to buy another driver. Unfortunately for me, I was BEYOND LATE to the Infinity party. The drivers were long since out of stock, so I had to find one on the interwebz. They showed up on eBay, but they were around 100 bucks or more after shipping. I decided to keep waiting.

I started looking for other options and remembered the JBL CS1214. The ONLY issue was, after throwing it into WinISD, the drivers only modeled close in a SEALED box. SPL response was ALMOST identical with the JBL having more power handling. In a ported box the JBL looked HORRIBLE. It needed a box that was 2x the size of the one for the Infinity. So I pushed it aside and kept looking for Infinity drivers waiting for a bargain.

All your Subz belong to us!

It's now a week or two before Black Friday 2017. My UM18 had sold, and I was sitting on money waiting for the right Infinity to buy. I had my parts list ready to buy for the ported Sonotubes, but was waiting till I had my last sub in hand.

Someone posted the JBL CX1200 was on sale for 45 bucks at BestBuy on Black Friday. The T/S parameters were identical to the CS1214. Knowing the CX1200 was the "updated" CS1214, I wondered what the CS1214 was going for now. A quick google search turned up the fact that Sonic Electronix had them on closeout for 25 DOLLARS….. INCLUDING SHIPPING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Consulting WinISD showed that a dual opposed 1214 build would make things simpler, and not lose too much SPL wise. I could ignore worries about port chuffing, I could add a shelf filter to boost response. This became a very viable option. It helped that one CS1214 wasn't too much more than the cost of the ports for each build. And they were NEW!

I am a horrible person . Ryan will openly tell you this. Owning that fact, I told no one but my closest friends the deal I'd found, wanting to keep it all to myself. Like Gollum with the one ring. Mine, my own…. My precioussssssss

The deal I was getting started to consume me.

I started with 6 drivers in my cart. This was the minmum I needed to finish 3 DO Sonotubes. The JBL's and Infinity's would work together, so no need to go overboard

...................……..But I got sub drunk.

6 became 8, so I'd have 2 extras. Consumed by greed, 8 became 12 (so I could replace the 1260's and be using all JBLs). My cart suddenly showed 12 items.

Then I did the unthinkable. My finger of its own accord moved before my brain even registered. "Submit"

Looking at my invoice, I felt dirty.


I pictured the face of the stock boy readying my order, seeing what I'd bought, and then how little it had cost me. His face turning to a grimmace seeing their shipping costs. After shipping, I doubt they made a dime

I thought that was the end.

I was wrong.

A few days pass and I am still consumed by the need to buy more of these drivers. It was only compounded by my fear I didn't have enough extras.

To the Internet! By now, word of the deal had spread and Sonic Electronix was sold out (I'd like to think because I bought them out ).

That left Amazon, where they were 65 bucks new, no longer a screaming deal. I monitored the site, and a day later two drivers showed in their "Amazon Warehouse Deals" (I think thats what its called). These were Amazon returns that still worked but had damage to the packaging, or the person just didn’t want them. 32 bucks a pop. I could stomach that.

Ordered. They were mine. My total was now up to 14 subs . But the beast inside me was not yet appeased.

I stumbled across a post from Matt Grant he had 2 drivers from testing, in factory boxes, he was selling. The post was stale, but I never saw any follow-up. I was going to be in Chicago for something else, and may as well add 2 more subs to my collection. A few weeks later the deal was done and I was on my way home with an additional 2.

My bloodlust ended. With 16 drivers, there was no more room at the inn. I had already moved 8 of them to a friend's house for him to help me build the Sonotubes. That still left me with 8 at the house.

It was time to start actually getting ready to build something .

P.S. Here is a my floor plan showing sub locations.


First set of drivers. I haven’t yet taken one of all of them together.


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post #2 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Small yet Mighty. The tale of the 12's

Chapter 2: The Organ Donor

I now faced a dilemma. Each Sonotube contained 2 subs. My other nearfield sub had 4 drivers. I was going to have trouble level matching my rear subs. Deciding to use 4 drivers, I now needed a new design for this back sub. But it needed to be the "right" design first time around.

Putting 2 Sonotubes behind my recliner was out of the question. Building a dual opposed box presented layout problems, and resulted in very low WAF. A downward firing fake "hope chest" would be too long for the space. Dual opposed Up/Down also had no WAF. Front/Back dual opposed would likely shake my surrounds and any pictures off the wall. I could go with 2 front firing, 2 downfiring, but that meant really tall legs, which likely wouldn't work. I was stuck.

I looked at any sub build I could find, hoping for inspiration. I lost myself in Infinite Baffle, Push/Pull, and all manner of unique layouts. I saw a guitar speaker with 4 front firing 10's. It was ugly as sin, but it wasn't that big. Light shone down from heaven. This was it. 4 drivers front firing, stacked in 2 rows of 2 each, butted up against the wall. It was basically a compact version of my nearfield sub.

Whatever I did, it needed high WAF. I don’t have woodworking skills, and good quality wood can get pricey. So I started looking for a pretty "shell" to build my sub inside.

I decided to commit a AUDIOPHILE SIN and take a vintage piece of audio equipment and convert it into a sub. With much shame, I looked at antique radios, consoles and all manner of things. Then it happened.

I saw an ad for something the seller called a "Reverb" box. I had no idea what it was but it looked pretty, and had 4 10" drivers inside of it and a make/model number of Hammond PR something. Down the Google rabbit hole I went. I finally locked in on "The One". A Hammond PR-40 Tone cabinet.

The Hammond PR-40 is meant to connect to a Hammond Organ. It has 2 15's and 2 12's in a 37 ½” high, 31 ½” wide, and 18” deep form factor. Its "just right". Tall enough to put stuff on, and more a rectangle than square. It also isn't much deeper than a Sonotube would have been.

I scoured the web for the "right" PR-40. Finding units in Chicago, and Peoria IL, I messaged a local friend to see if he would want to buy any of the parts out of these for the shop he runs. They are tube amp powered after all, and use "ok" vintage drivers. He said he'd be willing to pay about 50 bucks for the parts if they were all there. That put both units at a very good cost, but there would be travel time and gas involved. Do-able, but would require a harder sell than I wanted to do at that time.

Life got in the way, and time passed. Being a horrible person (see backstory), I had contacted both sellers for more pictures, so I had their email addresses, however I never actually bought either unit.

Finally ready to revisit and move on a unit, I messaged my friend to see if he still would buy the parts out of them, and he surprises me.

"Sorry Dan, not interested….." My heart sank. "Because I picked one up last week. You interested in the cabinet?"

My breath caught in my chest, I messaged back "When can I see it?"

"I'm eating a (local Mexican place). How about after?"

"Done."

I meet him at his storage unit, and there she is. A PRISTINE PR-40 in gorgeous walnut, the finish I needed to match our existing darker mahogany/espresso furniture. It was all still in one piece, tube amps and all.


Forgive me Father for I have sinned....

For 25 bucks, I took the cabinet, and he took the internals. It came home with me yesterday. It cleaned it up very well, and I'm now starting to move onto the build I've dubbed the "ORGAN DONOR" .


I will be posting a TON of pictures later tonight (after I go to confessional ), but suffice it to say, this unit is put together REMARKABLY WELL, and it's all Modular. The top came off with 4 screws, the front grill is attached with screws, making my job cutting pieces out extremely easy.

One thing I didn't know but is ICING on the cake, is that the grill fabric uses individual strands of wire in it. You cant see it, but its there. Why do I care? Well I've got 3 dogs, a cat, and 2 kids. So it should significantly help deter them from poking drivers, and the grill fabric can handle some poking without needing replaced.

The "only" flaw is that the top grill fabric has a tear, however my friend has a tub of similar older grill fabric that I can use, and he thinks he's got a perfect match for the front grill fabric.

Some pictures.

Here is the Hammon PR-20

When I first laid eyes on her.



After some cleanup







Some other pictures of the unit.

Even the top had a driver in it.



The grill came off with 4 screws and cleaned up beautiful



Need to do some thinking here.



The area I need to think about from the front.



Top needs a small amount of work.



Just look at that detail in the grill cloth!



Here are some rough ideas of what I’m planning (subject to change and updating at all times)





**Note** I've updated this post with "most" of the data from the subsequent build posts so its "close" to a start to finish. Clicking on the DATE section will take you directly to that post which may have additional pictures (I ran into a hard limit of 30 pictures for this post which required me to cut some out.

------------5-31-19------------


Baring any crazy stuff coming up between now and tomorrow, I will be making MDF dust and hope to have these built minus finishes tomorrow...

The finishes should go fast once I order fabric and use some rattle can black paint lol..



------------6-01-19------------


“The best laid plans of mice and me are opt to go awry”.......

So today I spent most of it in transit to my buddy’s (2.5 hours one way), and then laying out my concept and tweaking it, then building what we could. We intended to get everything done, but it didn’t work out that way...........

That left looking at the Hammond PR40 cabinet and putting together a plan for how to build things.

We ripped out what was there and again were unable to take out the front baffle as the tools we needed were elsewhere....

But we got the plan formulated, and at the end of the day, it’s a basic box so he’s good on building it.

But here is where we got.



He’s gonna work on stuff when he’s got a bit more time but we made very good progress.

So that’s my update. More will come as my buddy continues to make progress.

------------7-15-19------------


Massive update from yesterday. Had a marathon day to complete the Organ Donor build and it is alive and kicking.

I got up at 4:30 AM on Sunday morning, got in the car and drove to my buddys in Evansville. I arrived around 7:00 and we got to work quick.

First things first we decided to remove MOST of the existing front baffle. We ended up leaving the sides mainly because we were scared of damaging the finish on the visible sides with the cutter. This worked good because it left the mounting screws for the original grill, and also ensured I have MORE than enough space for cone movement before it hits the grill.



We decided the best size box was to leaving some space at the top (there are pieces connecting the existing panel together there we didnt want to screw with), and also leave the bottom (original plan was to remove that as well and drop the box to the floor). After those sizing adjustments we ended up with a box with these dimensions. I was shooting for a 6 cubic foot box but in all liklehood am closer to 5.0 (5.3 prior to drivers and bracing). Since its a sealed box and these JBL's aren't known for digging deep, I wont lose much down low, and I plan to EQ them with a shelf filter anyway.



The box came along nicely as it wasnt as much a PITA as cutting 150 million baffles for the Sonotubes.



Once it was all glued up and the glue set we did a test fit. We discovered our initial plan (the box goes up, rotates in) wouldnt work as the tolerance for the turn was too tight. This was done initially to save the rear horizontal piece that held part of the top grill on, and just looked quite nice. We ending up takign CONSIDERABLE time to remove it as carefully as we could, so it could be reattached later.

The box fit like a glove, so tight in fact I will need to install nylon straps at the back to aid with removing the box if I need to work on it as it wont budge unless you pull it out JUST right lol...

At this point (it was close to 2:30 PM) I left my buddys house and drove the 2 hours 45 min trip back to mine to continue working on the box.





Rather than go with duratex, my buddy had some leftover black speaker box carpet, so in the interest of time I decided to use that instead. It went on fairly easily with spray adhesive and looks great. Plus the front grill isnt easily removed, so I wont be showing that off much if at all.

I ended up installing the fabric on the front and back of the enclosure. I also sanded down the bottom of the Hammond PR cabinet and attached fabric there as there is a small portion that could be viewable with the grill on, and it also helps slide the box in. The sides and top currently have no fabric. I HAVE debated installing patches on the side of the Hammond cabinet for similar reasons to why I did it on the bottom of the box. I have extra so we will see.





After installing it I did a test fit to ensure it would still fit. Tolerance at the top was tight to begin with so was concerned if I still could get it in. Much easier to man handle a box without 4 drivers weighing it down lol.



Some of you may notice I didn't seal all the sections of the box. My OCD lead me to start, and in the interest of time I stopped. I made a few compromises and this is always something I can go back and do later if its even needed (likely not we used a TON of glue when building the box)

The rear actually looks better than I thought it would. I was originally unsure if I should carpet or paint it (which would have happened at a later date). I'm glad I went with carpet just to get it done. I think it was around 10:30 pm before I had the box fully carpeted.



Wiring the 4 drivers was a lot of "fun". 4 SVC 4 ohm drivers wired to a 4 ohm load. Lots of quick disconnects and fun. I wired and tested them to ensure the were all playing prior to screwing them into the cabinet. Easier to troubleshoot that way.



Here is the final product, completed at around 1:00 am on Monday morning (the next day). Its currently missing the front grill which is mounted using screws from behind, so its a PITA to take off, so for now while I dial in EQ and whatnot I'm leaving it detached. It also needs some cleaning up which will be done in the next day or two.



Whats left for me to do now is all based on some of the compromises I made yesterday just to get this up and running.

I bought a bunch of REALLY nice connectors from David Gage of Deep Sea to use initially, but in order to get it up and running,I just used drywall screws for now. Since I have only a single 3/4" baffle I would have had to install blocking (8 pieces) on the back of the box for each drivers, meaning installing 32 pieces of blocking, then drilling, mounting hardware, etc. I can always do that at a later date.

I also didnt have any speaker gasket, but with the carpet and a really tight fit I think the drivers will be OK for now.

Also made a compromise on the speaker wiring. I bought really nice 14 gauge Furez speaker wire. The quick disconnects I got weren't super tight so I did a lot of extra crimping to make them work. Also since I needed to combine a few wire together and the disconnects were only rated for a single 14 gauge run, I ended up cutting a 1" section out about 2" above the disconnect and stripping that section, and then pairing the connected wire to it, then wrapped the whole portion with lots of electrical tape to keep it safe. At a later date I may go back in and solder those connections, I just didnt have the material for that on me.

I also need to buy some pillows and stuff the box a bit. I'm aware of the data on how a box performs stuff v unstuffed on databass and that I may be giving up a bit of SPL to stuff it, but given that its literally less than 2 feet from my back, I am ok with that.

All in all I'm super happy with how this box came out, and feel the few compromises I made were worth it to get this thing up and running.

Hopefully today I can get it connected (have to pull out my rack and re-organize) and take some measurements and EQ it.

Then I just need to wrap up my two Sonotubes, which we didnt even touch yesterday.

Some cleaned up pics (taken with my iPhone X and apparently with some glare/lighting issues):




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Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

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post #3 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Reserved for Chapter 3: the unnamed build

------------6-1-19------------


“The best laid plans of mice and me are opt to go awry”.......

So today I spent most of it in transit to my buddy’s (2.5 hours one way), and then laying out my concept and tweaking it, then building what we could. We intended to get everything done, but it didn’t work out that way...

Here are some pics I took of what we did. I had the Sonotubes already, which just left the need to buy 2 sheets of 3/4 MDF, 1 1/4 Dowel and some misc stuff.

We knew going in we had limited time, so because neither of us have done a sonotube, we gave it priority. We started setting everything up before we started working...




After ripping one sheet of MDF into two sections of 17 x 17” squares we glued and brad nailed the double baffles together. We did a total of 4 pairs of baffles (top/bottom x 2), plus the two bottom plates.



Then we cut down the 48” Sonotubes down to 34” with a table saw. It was “fun” for sure lol....

Then we measured, got out the router and cut the top/bottom baffles to be flush with the outer edge of the sonotube.



Then we measure the inner diameter and cut half the baffle to sit inside it. We intend to use gorilla glue (because it expands), to fill any voids.

Final baffles below. We did have one screw up so we have to cut some more stuff but we have the measurements down (and a jig made) so it should be easy.





^Note the gap is what will be filled by the gorilla glue expansion and the baffle beneath is flush with the outer end, making a perfect seal.

At this point we’d burned through his router bit and with the time to get to the store and back, plus cleanup before he had friends over (he’d blanked he had early afternoon/evening plans) we just called it on the sonotubes for the day.

So that’s my update. More will come as my buddy continues to make progress.

------------00-00-19------------

My Setup | Custom MiniDSP Build | FS: If its For Sale, find it all (here)
Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

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post #4 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 01:27 PM
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Dude, your story telling is epic. This will be awesome to watch unfold.

Typed on a tiny keyboard, excuse any typos
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^^^ Agreed, awsome story Can’t wait to read more

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post #6 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 03:00 PM
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Wow 16 drivers, that's dirrrty.

I happen to be sitting on 9 or 10 1260/1262's, or something, that I haven't built yet LOL.

I also happen to be going to Indy for the weekend, LOL.

Can't wait for the rest of the story.
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post #7 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 05:26 PM
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post #8 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Pictures posted in post 2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (so ignore any typos grammatical errors because my iPhone predictive text stinks)

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Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick
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post #9 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 06:05 PM
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I love your MiniDSP build! Can't wait to see the OCD AR details that make this thing pure gold.

That's quite the stack of subs for not sitting in a warehouse lol. You'll have to line them all out on the floor for a pic like BTH did.

What kind of plans do you have for driving such a high number sealed drivers? I'll be keeping an eye on this one. Awesome!!
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post #10 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 06:17 PM
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post #11 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 08:03 PM
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post #12 of 74 Old 03-22-2018, 09:43 PM
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Love the story!

Keep the subs close and true.... whatever that means.

You need at least twice as many and double the watts..... think 18s, 21s, 24s, or 32s...

There was a cool 4x4 famous 12" sub build here before. Super cool.

Though in the end only 16 18" equivalent will do... I have a ways to go...

Subs for the win.... Keep going.

Maybe 64 12s are enough? Please report back.
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post #13 of 74 Old 03-23-2018, 07:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
I love your MiniDSP build! Can't wait to see the OCD AR details that make this thing pure gold.
Thanks, I can't take a lot of credit for that as I didn't do anything more than source the parts for my buddy who built it. I do love it though, doesn't look out of place at all with my other gear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
That's quite the stack of subs for not sitting in a warehouse lol. You'll have to line them all out on the floor for a pic like BTH did.
Nope, thats been done before, and I already mounted 4 of them in my nearfield box. Perhaps I will post a pic of all the boxes together next to one of my kids once its all said and done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
What kind of plans do you have for driving such a high number sealed drivers? I'll be keeping an eye on this one. Awesome!!
When you're talking about driving a bunch of subs, and building multiple units the answer isn't always short [IMG]file:///C:\Users\PEWM\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image001.gif[/IMG]. As I said in my foreword, I like to explain the "Why" behind the "How". To quote Treebeard from LOTR (yes, I am a full on nerd and I own it [IMG]file:///C:\Users\PEWM\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image002.gif[/IMG]) "It takes a long time to say anything in Entish and anything worth saying takes a long time.

Matt Grant @mtg90 tested these drivers said their excursion limit was a hard 15mm So I WinISD'd (yup I just made it a verb and invented a new word) the crap out of these drivers. P.S. I trust Matts numbers implicitly

In WinISD 4 drivers in a 6 cf box can handle about 1750 watts at their limit. So combined I'd need 5250 watts to fully power all 4 boxes. Nope, not happening [IMG]file:///C:\Users\PEWM\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c lip_image002.gif[/IMG]. That also wasn't my goal.

I have 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits for my HT. Because of my house's layout, pulling a 4th circuit is not an option. It required some significant assistance to do 3, leaving one open breaker on my panel. I currently have the 3 used as follows:

Circuit 1: Sub amp(s)
Circuit 2: B&K 200.5
Circuit 3: APC H15 (connected to all sources & TV)

I plan to keep it this way.

There will be 3 Phases to this:

Phase 1 (current phase): Single bridged Crown XLS2000 for the nearfield sub (4 ohms)
Phase 2 (nearfied + Organ Donor): 2 bridged Crown XLS2000's (I have 2 already), each sub run independently
In Phase 3 (nearfield + Organ Donor + 2 more subs): 1 bridged XLS200 (front 2 subs), 1 STEREO Crown XLS2000 (I will be amp/power limited)

My design goals are simple: as much surface area, using the largest sized, and the largest number of subs. If I was amp limited, that’s easier to solve by upgrading, compared to building more subs.

Then taking those subs and spreading them out to help negate any room nulls.

In WinISD, comparing all 4 subs driven to their limit against what I will have, the SPL below 25hz doesn't really change that much (double the power to get 3db more and all). To really increase that range (below 25hs) requires more drivers, larger boxes, or drivers with higher excursion numbers (and more wattage to drive them). Those were not the options I had to start with. So I already knew going in that I'm going to need to count on room gain to help me out a bit.

I am also keeping excursion well below its limit by having a LOT of drivers, AS MANY AS I COULD nearfield so I am getting their full SPL potential not diminished by distance, so I dont NEED to drive them to the limit. I want them to barely move while still sounding LOUD.

My room is open to other rooms, so I wont ever be able to really pressurize it. My goal is still to make your chest, legs and arm hairs vibrate, and with 8 12's nearfield I'm doing as best I can there.

I also hope to throw a low shelf filter on these subs to help boost the low end (and yes that requires lots of power on tap, so we will see how that goes).

Hopefully that helped explain HOW I'm going to powering these, along with the WHY I'm powering them that way, and maybe a bit more about my design choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cellarnoise View Post
There was a cool 4x4 famous 12" sub build here before. Super cool.
Yes, I saw the 32 12" sub build by popalock lol. This wont be anywhere near that. I'm not going to try and outdo him because I cant lol.

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post #14 of 74 Old 03-23-2018, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Updated first two posts with some more pics, including a mock-up of my build


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (so ignore any typos grammatical errors because my iPhone predictive text stinks)
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post #15 of 74 Old 03-24-2018, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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In looking at the cabinet closer, I ran into a problem I'd noticed, but hadn't thought about. Spit balling with a buddy I think we have come up with what might be the best solution.

Each driver is 12.25" in diameter including the basket. The opening in the cabinet for the grill is ONLY 24" tall. That leaves 1/4 of each driver above or below the opening. This would make accessing the drivers to replace one a big PITA.

We thought of all kinds of possible solutions:

Splitting the baffle into 2 sections (still wouldn't work).
Mounting the drivers from the inside and having the entire rear panel removable (could work, might look funky with the grill removed).
Cutting the ENTIRE FRONT into one piece and having it mount to the box. (feels even more wrong than stripping it out)
Removing the bottom out of the box and building the new bot to have it slip over whats there already, with furniture inserts securing the sides of the "shell" to the interior box.

Of these options, the 4th is likely what we will go with. It would let me have access to the drivers if needed, and because we are removing the bottom, I'd end up gaining about 4" of height I hadn't calculated, so the box is closer to 6 cf.

My wife also asked that we remove the grill from the top panel and make it a solid piece of wood, even if we just paint the new piece black (since matching the color and patina of the existing unit would be a PITA). So we are gonna do that and figure out some way to make the new piece of wood fit in.

Additionally this makes things easier as there is a 1/2" gap between the section that the top mounted 12" driver was mounted and the top itself. We plan to just cover that with a piece of MDF, along with a piece of 3/4" to fill in the hole from the 12" driver. Then we will use the top of the SHELL as the top of the box. It means my top will be 1" thick, and also help strengthen the top of the shell.

At least that’s what we are thinking right now.

I've got the box inside the house now in its final resting place and we are getting adjusted to the size, and my wife is figuring out decor for it.

I've got to get it down to my buddies in Evansville still for "deconstruction" which will take a bit as he's 3 hours away, and we are both super busy.

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Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick

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post #16 of 74 Old 03-29-2018, 02:29 AM
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I see in your drawing that the internal length of the box is 28,5 inch. Did you try the two upper drivers all the way to the left, and the two bottom ones to the right, thereby maybe squeezing them a bit closer in height?

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post #17 of 74 Old 03-29-2018, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I see in your drawing that the internal length of the box is 28.5 inch. Did you try the two upper drivers all the way to the left, and the two bottom ones to the right, thereby maybe squeezing them a bit closer in height?
Yes, but it didn't change much. If I had another couple inches length I could potentially diagonal them and make it work. Problem is, any change to the cutout means the grill isnt usable anymore as there will be gaps if I add extra spacing.

However by building the cabinet in such a way I can basically remove the outer shell (which is the entire PR-40) the need is negated. We will need to make sure the tolerances for the sides are tight so we can adhere the inner box to the PR-40's sides good enough that it doesn't vibrate, but it lets me have much better access to the drivers. It also makes the box a bit bigger so I have extra room to use to reinforce both the PR-40 "shell" and the inner box.
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post #18 of 74 Old 03-29-2018, 08:31 AM
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This “storyline” is epic!!! Subbed.
Reminds me of the story of the “Knights of old...”


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post #19 of 74 Old 03-29-2018, 10:07 AM
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What a write-up Dan! Finally got a chance to read through it.

Some suggestions if you have not thought of it already - and if you have room. Extreme examples below, but take a beveled and angled trim-ring and have the drivers sit in a very subtle clam shell arrangement.





You can always add more meat on that grill frame to have it stick out a bit farther so as to make room for the additional depth requirement. All I'm saying basically is who says that absolutely must all be flush inside there?
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Originally Posted by JCJetta View Post
What a write-up Dan! Finally got a chance to read through it.

Some suggestions if you have not thought of it already - and if you have room. Extreme examples below, but take a beveled and angled trim-ring and have the drivers sit in a very subtle clam shell arrangement.

You can always add more meat on that grill frame to have it stick out a bit farther so as to make room for the additional depth requirement. All I'm saying basically is who says that absolutely must all be flush inside there?
Thanks! I did think about using Trim rings, and honestly there wont be a double baffle on these more than likely. Single baffle with little pegs for the mounts as I plan to use the mounting screws from @dgage . I used them on my Ultimax 18 and it looked good and I felt made sure I could remove or tighten down the driver without worrying about stripping anything.

Even if I added a Trim Ring, I still dont think that would fix my issue, which is the vertical height of two drivers being above the cutout by 1/4 on top and bottom. So when I go to pull out the driver I wont be able to angle it down and out, and I'm still not sure if I pull it straight out and then the whole driver down it would work. Andif I use trim rings, I lose that amount of space from the box and I need to keep it as close to 6cf as possible to match my other box. Its more OCD on my part, but I'm whose gotta live with it so I can OCD all I want .

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I think what I'm trying to say is more officially called an array; just the examples of which are getting way more fancy than what I'm imagining.

Look at the quad tweeter array in this ceiling speaker.


Now, this Danley is more of a clamshell with only 2 planes - perhaps you wouldn't need quite that extreme to fit all 4 in your cabinet.


Maybe it is as easy as adding a cylinder trim ring with a cut angle in it... kinda like the shape this candle is left in right after my favorite Game of Thrones character slices it with Needle.


Or perhaps I'm making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
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post #22 of 74 Old 04-07-2018, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

It will be replacing this:

Asking here as this is your thread

So, this was about 6ft3? Any stuffing inside?

Do you have any REW measurements of this showing FR?

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post #23 of 74 Old 04-07-2018, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Small yet Mighty. The tale of the 12's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Asking here as this is your thread



So, this was about 6ft3? Any stuffing inside?



Do you have any REW measurements of this showing FR?


Yes. See my link in the 29$ thread for more info on the box.

I didn’t build it but it’s basically 4 individually sealed boxes together. 6 cf total, stuffed to the brim w polyfil.

Don’t have any graphs of the JBLs, I do of the Infinities that were in there initially.

Since they modeled similar in WinISD to the Infinities I’d assume it would be similar.

That said this box is on the SIDE of my room not directly behind as I assume you will be doing. So my measurements might not be super helpful to you.

Hence why I’m looking at redoing the box at a later date. The middle and main seats are 4-6 feet from them.

It’s not in this picture but they sit along that gray wall on the side.




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post #24 of 74 Old 04-07-2018, 08:28 AM
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^^^Got it. Still would like to see REW pic

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post #25 of 74 Old 04-07-2018, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^^Got it. Still would like to see REW pic
Ok, give me a bit to find the Infinity REW graph. With a full house, grabbing another graph of the JBLs isnt likely anytime soon lol....
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post #26 of 74 Old 05-03-2018, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Yes. See my link in the 29$ thread for more info on the box.

I didn’t build it but it’s basically 4 individually sealed boxes together. 6 cf total, stuffed to the brim w polyfil.

Don’t have any graphs of the JBLs, I do of the Infinities that were in there initially.

Since they modeled similar in WinISD to the Infinities I’d assume it would be similar.

That said this box is on the SIDE of my room not directly behind as I assume you will be doing. So my measurements might not be super helpful to you.

Hence why I’m looking at redoing the box at a later date. The middle and main seats are 4-6 feet from them.

It’s not in this picture but they sit along that gray wall on the side.




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Why can’t you use the current slim box behind the left couch and the new one where the slim one was? It is so slim, i bet nobody would notice if you moved it there silently

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post #27 of 74 Old 05-03-2018, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
P.S. Here is a my floor plan showing sub locations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Why can’t you use the current slim box behind the left couch and the new one where the slim one was? It is so slim, i bet nobody would notice if you moved it there silently
I'm confused. The slim box I have already is located back left (in red). Thats where it will be until I rebuild it, and then the new iteration will still be in the same spot. The reason for the rebuild is to space the drivers closer to each other and adjust the dimension of the box to align with the slant of the back of the sectional better.

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I was referring to the pic in my quote. In that pic you have the slim box behind the right couch section now, correct?

Put the new box there, as you planned.

But your MLP is in the left couch section with the hallway behind it ?

You now have a leftover slim box and four leftover 12", correct?

Put the slim box with those 4 behind that left couch section(your MLP) right up against the back of the couch.

Voila all 16x12" in use

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post #29 of 74 Old 05-03-2018, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
I was referring to the pic in my quote. In that pic you have the slim box behind the right couch section now, correct?

Put the new box there, as you planned.

But your MLP is in the left couch section with the hallway behind it ?

You now have a leftover slim box and four leftover 12", correct?

Put the slim box with those 4 behind that left couch section(your MLP) right up against the back of the couch.

Voila all 16x12" in use
Wife didn't want that, and I'm pushing it a bit as it is with 4 subs lol..... Otherwise I'd have two boxes spanning the entire length of that section with all 16 drivers lol......

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post #30 of 74 Old 05-03-2018, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
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Wife didn't want that, and I'm pushing it a bit as it is with 4 subs lol..... Otherwise I'd have two boxes spanning the entire length of that section with all 16 drivers lol......
You need to be creative man. Instead of a big black box, do what i did: make the box look like something else ! Search for «3D wall paper» on ebay. There is soooo many cool ways to make that box disseapper with a creative wall paper, like my sonos. I am thinking about something similar on my new boxes

Heck, what about making it look like a aquarium? Ask your wife what she would want

And hey: one narrow «creative» slim box behind your MLP with all 16 would be much less intrusive and much more effective than all those big subs placed around the room.
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