21" drivers with high excursion - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 63 Old 06-01-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bebb View Post
ESPECIALLY those of us who USED some of the drivers under discussion.
How about those who tried, but couldn't, but are too polite to say otherwise?

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post #32 of 63 Old 06-01-2018, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post

Or just get a 10" servo sub like Danny Ritchiie says. All these oversized plywood boxes are a waste
hah.

So tired of all the servo hype. It's a decent way to get a cheap driver to be more linear, but better off just using a better driver.

I was talking to someone about this yesterday... quick comparison between Rythmik F18 and a um18-22...

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post #33 of 63 Old 06-01-2018, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bebb View Post
ESPECIALLY those of us who USED some of the drivers under discussion.
Honestly, I won't buy a driver from someone who doesn't provide TSP.


Thx for the THD comparison, that servor driver looks unacceptable.
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post #34 of 63 Old 06-01-2018, 01:13 PM
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Linear motor systems apparently worked really well. I'm surprised it isn't used more. Differential drive may be big in the future too. These alternatives are better than servo systems and allow the use of any amplifier. Testing showed that ported systems lower distortion quite a bit too largely because woofer motion is reduced and thus the voice coil stays closer to optimum BL on the curve. Multiple drivers allow each one to move less again lowering distortion. 4 cheap drivers will outperform one really big one. They also allow staggered placement.
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post #35 of 63 Old 06-01-2018, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soldy View Post
I will take a look at it.



But basically it all comes down to the displaced volume and the electrial durability of the driver. So if you have a good alternative to large drivers, feel free to name it
someone mentioned JLD 24" driver. China drivers have been said to be hit or miss, but that is one way to get displacement for low cost I suppose.
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post #36 of 63 Old 06-02-2018, 12:35 AM
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The dual Octal-Opposed PA-460's sub I built is a good way to get lots of bass in a small space.
Nothing beats it for it's price range and size range.





115db @ 1m @ 2 watts
Handling is: 8,000W RMS 16,000W burst -> 150db @ 1m

Not bad for $90 x 16 + an amp.

You COULD beat it by 18db @ tuning, but it would have to be 16 B&C 18's ported or horned.... (which would take up WAY more space than 3sqft of floor space. Like 4-8x more space...) and thousands of dollars more expensive.

I think both the UM-18 and servo-drive is jealous of that THD chart. hehe!
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post #37 of 63 Old 06-02-2018, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
hah.

So tired of all the servo hype. It's a decent way to get a cheap driver to be more linear, but better off just using a better driver.

I was talking to someone about this yesterday... quick comparison between Rythmik F18 and a um18-22...

in fairness, the rythmik was producing more output in the "110db" sweep. 3db output will tend to give about 6db in distortion on the low end, which is roughly 2X, so the rythmik distortion numbers have to be cut by a little more than half. still kind of hard to see the benefit of the servo technology though...

yellow is rythmik.
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post #38 of 63 Old 06-02-2018, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
in fairness, the rythmik was producing more output in the "110db" sweep. 3db output will tend to give about 6db in distortion on the low end, which is roughly 2X, so the rythmik distortion numbers have to be cut by a little more than half. still kind of hard to see the benefit of the servo technology though...

yellow is rythmik.
yep. was just doing it quick, but you're right.

There aren't many options for comparison there with eq built in to boost the low end. That said, the um18-22 will take an additional 6db on the low end before it hits the distortion levels of the F18. Or to put it differently, it can output 3db more than the F18 at the same distortion levels.
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post #39 of 63 Old 06-02-2018, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The dual Octal-Opposed PA-460's
This is a great post for two reasons,
1. Good information, most omitted here for clarity.
2. The name-dual Octal-OpposedPA-460's. Can I get a booyah.
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post #40 of 63 Old 06-07-2018, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
hah.

So tired of all the servo hype. It's a decent way to get a cheap driver to be more linear, but better off just using a better driver.

I was talking to someone about this yesterday... quick comparison between Rythmik F18 and a um18-22...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
in fairness, the rythmik was producing more output in the "110db" sweep. 3db output will tend to give about 6db in distortion on the low end, which is roughly 2X, so the rythmik distortion numbers have to be cut by a little more than half. still kind of hard to see the benefit of the servo technology though...

yellow is rythmik.

What is considered acceptable and/or inaudible THD for subs and/or speakers?


I've read 10% but not sure.
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post #41 of 63 Old 06-07-2018, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The dual Octal-Opposed PA-460's sub I built is a good way to get lots of bass in a small space.
Nothing beats it for it's price range and size range.





115db @ 1m @ 2 watts
Handling is: 8,000W RMS 16,000W burst -> 150db @ 1m

Not bad for $90 x 16 + an amp.

You COULD beat it by 18db @ tuning, but it would have to be 16 B&C 18's ported or horned.... (which would take up WAY more space than 3sqft of floor space. Like 4-8x more space...) and thousands of dollars more expensive.

I think both the UM-18 and servo-drive is jealous of that THD chart. hehe!
Anyone want to help me build those boxes in Texas
Edit: No... I need to move first before I build. I can't build a bunch of things that I won't be able to move myself.
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post #42 of 63 Old 06-09-2018, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tential View Post
Anyone want to help me build those boxes in Texas
Edit: No... I need to move first before I build. I can't build a bunch of things that I won't be able to move myself.
Don't be silly you can move those by yourself. They probably only weight 450lbs
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post #43 of 63 Old 06-09-2018, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Acrjoey View Post
Don't be silly you can move those by yourself. They probably only weight 450lbs
Yeah, all the enclosure needs is some wheels and a trailer coupling...
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post #44 of 63 Old 06-09-2018, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post
Anyone want to help me build those boxes in Texas
Edit: No... I need to move first before I build. I can't build a bunch of things that I won't be able to move myself.
Where at in TX? We're not exactly RI lol!

It would be a pretty fun build imo.
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post #45 of 63 Old 06-09-2018, 11:40 AM
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Those boxes are only 78x20x18
Ideally the boxes would be bigger, that is the undersized version. Ideally you'd want at least 16cubes internal, and probably more if porting to 25-40hz...

A full sheet is only 96x48, so two sides of the box will take up nearly a whole sheet, with the remaining going to the top and bottom panel.
So you'll need two sheets per box, the second sheet will have some left overs for braces if you don't go with 1" dowels like I did.

The 460's are 24.5lbs each or whatever.
The 8 460's + glue + screws ~= 200lbs

The box and bracing is extra...
If you brace them lots and/or a bigger box and/or mdf, they will be MUCH heavier than what I built...

The 25hz ported version would probably be 600lbs each and the size of a HzHorn. LOL! But it would also be ~12-6db louder between 25-100hz... No free lunch!
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post #46 of 63 Old 06-10-2018, 12:04 PM
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can we not detail this thread with another BTH rant

OP, I would choose 2 UM-18s over a single HST18 any day. The guys of at Fi audio are working on an HT line of subs to go along with their car audio subs, and is meant to pretty much be a direct competitor to the UM18.

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post #47 of 63 Old 06-10-2018, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
can we not detail this thread with another BTH rant

OP, I would choose 2 UM-18s over a single HST18 any day. The guys of at Fi audio are working on an HT line of subs to go along with their car audio subs, and is meant to pretty much be a direct competitor to the UM18.
Fair enough, but the OP PM'ed me asking for more details.

Besides, 21's and 24's are significantly more powerful than 18's on a 1 vs 1 ratio.

It really depends on the OP's budget and space available and goals.

2 UM-18's or 2 FI-18's are great, but 2 21's or 2 24's are SO much better.

The OP is in Europe so his ability to acquire North American drivers are rather limited, or at least very cost-prohibitive.

He may be "stuck" with Beyma's, or B&C's or China-woofers whatever it is that they sell over there...

If he is gonna spend $500 to ship a single woofer to his house, it might as well be a SI SHS-24 or an IPAL-21. Something actually worth the shipping fee, maybe a Russian DeafBonce-32

I can't tell if this video is about Russian hotties or dual 32's with human-sized 4th-order ports, or both, But: How much do they cost?
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 06-10-2018 at 11:58 PM.
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post #48 of 63 Old 06-11-2018, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Those boxes are only 78x20x18
Ideally the boxes would be bigger, that is the undersized version. Ideally you'd want at least 16cubes internal, and probably more if porting to 25-40hz...

A full sheet is only 96x48, so two sides of the box will take up nearly a whole sheet, with the remaining going to the top and bottom panel.
So you'll need two sheets per box, the second sheet will have some left overs for braces if you don't go with 1" dowels like I did.

The 460's are 24.5lbs each or whatever.
The 8 460's + glue + screws ~= 200lbs

The box and bracing is extra...
If you brace them lots and/or a bigger box and/or mdf, they will be MUCH heavier than what I built...

The 25hz ported version would probably be 600lbs each and the size of a HzHorn. LOL! But it would also be ~12-6db louder between 25-100hz... No free lunch!
You don't have to put all 8 drivers in one box. Build it in 2 halves with 4 in each. Or even 4 modules with 2 in each. There is no downside to making them modular. Fewer Egyptian slaves are needed to stack. Once stacked, they are just as majestic.
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post #49 of 63 Old 06-23-2018, 09:04 PM
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post #50 of 63 Old 06-24-2018, 01:23 AM
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Why would you want or even need a sub woofer to produce frequencies that are well below what can be heard, I doubt too many people would hear anything below 30hz so what’s the point.

All you are doing is damaging your hearing and trust me you don’t want to do that.

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post #51 of 63 Old 06-24-2018, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Why would you want or even need a sub woofer to produce frequencies that are well below what can be heard, I doubt too many people would hear anything below 30hz so what’s the point.

All you are doing is damaging your hearing and trust me you don’t want to do that.
You really should educate yourself before posting such drivel.

This is the audibility threshold based on frequency and SPL level.

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post #52 of 63 Old 06-24-2018, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Why would you want or even need a sub woofer to produce frequencies that are well below what can be heard, I doubt too many people would hear anything below 30hz so what’s the point.

All you are doing is damaging your hearing and trust me you don’t want to do that.
Interesting...

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post #53 of 63 Old 06-24-2018, 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
You don't have to put all 8 drivers in one box. Build it in 2 halves with 4 in each. Or even 4 modules with 2 in each. There is no downside to making them modular. Fewer Egyptian slaves are needed to stack. Once stacked, they are just as majestic.
I like bass columns though.....
They're pretty compact too. It's really a good deal.
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post #54 of 63 Old 06-24-2018, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
Why would you want or even need a sub woofer to produce frequencies that are well below what can be heard, I doubt too many people would hear anything below 30hz so what’s the point.

All you are doing is damaging your hearing and trust me you don’t want to do that.
So basically what your saying is: I just microwaved my whole body and died?
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^^^7Hz burps (2 MalX-21's, 3 Sealed LMS-18's, 1 Horned LMS-18, 6 sealed UM-15's, 4 sealed PA-460's)
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^^^ 16hz bass-enhanced song with 8 of 16 sealed PA-460's (at idle, I must say. Probably 2 watts.)

1000-20000hz is what kills your hearing fast, not the <30hz. (The tweeters, not the subwoofers!)
LOL!

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post #55 of 63 Old 06-24-2018, 11:45 PM
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When I use to own a Car Audio store at the time we briefly stocked Cerwin Vega subwoofers among many other brands, quite often these companies came along to demo their stuff and when they brought their demo van we were all handed ear defenders to wear whilst they were demoing the equipment. You are saying this is complete and utter nonsense and I honestly don't know either way but if so why bother handing out ear defenders if not a safety precaution?

Oh BTW this demo was purely sub not the entire frequency range.

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post #56 of 63 Old 06-25-2018, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The dual Octal-Opposed PA-460's sub I built is a good way to get lots of bass in a small space.
Nothing beats it for it's price range and size range.
115db @ 1m @ 2 watts
Handling is: 8,000W RMS 16,000W burst -> 150db @ 1m

Not bad for $90 x 16 + an amp.

You COULD beat it by 18db @ tuning, but it would have to be 16 B&C 18's ported or horned.... (which would take up WAY more space than 3sqft of floor space. Like 4-8x more space...) and thousands of dollars more expensive.

I think both the UM-18 and servo-drive is jealous of that THD chart. hehe!

Just to be clear, is that a sealed configuration? 8 PA460S in 16cu ft, so 2cu ft per driver?

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post #57 of 63 Old 06-25-2018, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
When I use to own a Car Audio store at the time we briefly stocked Cerwin Vega subwoofers among many other brands, quite often these companies came along to demo their stuff and when they brought their demo van we were all handed ear defenders to wear whilst they were demoing the equipment. You are saying this is complete and utter nonsense and I honestly don't know either way but if so why bother handing out ear defenders if not a safety precaution?

Oh BTW this demo was purely sub not the entire frequency range.
Bottom line is, you don't know. Stop posting as if you do.

Loud enough, subwoofer content will damage your hearing. As for content below 30hz being inaudible, this is not true. It also requires higher levels to hurt you as compared to higher frequencies.
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post #58 of 63 Old 06-25-2018, 10:27 AM
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lol
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post #59 of 63 Old 06-25-2018, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
When I use to own a Car Audio store at the time we briefly stocked Cerwin Vega subwoofers among many other brands, quite often these companies came along to demo their stuff and when they brought their demo van we were all handed ear defenders to wear whilst they were demoing the equipment. You are saying this is complete and utter nonsense and I honestly don't know either way but if so why bother handing out ear defenders if not a safety precaution?

Oh BTW this demo was purely sub not the entire frequency range.
How would you know if you were wearing ear defenders what was really happening

Sounds like a great way to market things. Gotta love marketing teams, always creating new ways to market.

Also... did you not look at the graph? A subwoofer plays a decent range. You specifically talked about the 30hz and under.

I'm just not sure how this doesn't just automatically make sense to you when notynt posts that graph. It's as self explanatory as that once you see it.

Also, isn't 30hz and under less important for music tracks usually compared to home theater? So this would further be less relevant to what you're saying and the demos you were given......
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post #60 of 63 Old 06-25-2018, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

Also, isn't 30hz and under less important for music tracks usually compared to home theater? So this would further be less relevant to what you're saying and the demos you were given......
Depends on the music
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