LTD02-VBSS + mini-marty UM18 + NEW iNuke + a Bulldog named Diesel - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 119 Old 06-16-2018, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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JCM & Juju, thanks guys. Even though the PL3x left the greasy look behind, I was still able to sand it off easily. All of the edges cleaned up nicely. I have some more pictures coming soon.



I'm going to start priming and painting them in the next 1-2 days. I'm hoping to power them up this week. I need to get going on an amp - unfortunately I don't think the new iNukes will be available soon enough.



I'm planning to power a UM18 with one channel, and the dual VBSS's with the other channel. Would the iNuke 6k be good for that? Or overkill for the PA460s?
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post #32 of 119 Old 06-16-2018, 10:59 AM
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I'd think you need the 6000 for the um18, even if it is overkill for the pa460s. You'll need to set a limiter i would say.

Hopefully one of the veterans can tell you if the settings provided for the vbss thread could be loaded right into the 6000 without a problem.

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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, DIYSG HT12s (L,C,R), PSA mt 110s (SR,SL), 2 VBSS, Submaximus, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700
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post #33 of 119 Old 06-16-2018, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post
The cabinets are pretty close to being finished now. I test fitted the PA460s and predrilled the screw holes in the baffle. I also finished the braces - I did vertical braces too.
















I decided to do a 45 degree chamfer on the edges instead of rounded. I lined the inside with foam mattress topper.







After sanding the nail holes, all the excess PL3x off and the seams. I was very happy with how well some of the edges/seams came together, like this one:


PL premium is easy to shave off when cured for about 2 to 3 hours. A sharp knife ( Olfa with the black honed 2x sharp blades ) will shave off excess squeeze out with no trouble.


Sanding or routing after curing will remove any additional adhesive.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #34 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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2 more edges/seams I was very happy with.





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post #35 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
PL premium is easy to shave off when cured for about 2 to 3 hours. A sharp knife ( Olfa with the black honed 2x sharp blades ) will shave off excess squeeze out with no trouble.
Sanding or routing after curing will remove any additional adhesive.
Michael, there were a few places where I hadn't wiped the PL3x off and it hardened. I was able to scrape it off, but found it difficult to scrape it off flush with the MDF. I tried using a block plane, but that ended up scraping the MDF too. And I tried sanding it, but the PL3x obviously is very hard. I tried using everything down to 100 grit sandpaper on a random orbital sandpaper. I didn't want to go lower than 100 grit, for fear it would tear the MDF up.

Anyway, it turned out pretty well. I still liked using PL3x more than the Liquid Nails pro I used on my mini-marty cabinet.

If I build another cabinet again, I will wipe the excess off, simply because it's easier to wipe it off and when I paint the cabinet, it covers up the greasy smears.




Bryce, remember both the UM18 and the dual VBSS's will be for a music setup in my office. With that in mind, do you still think I need a 6k amp? I'm kind of leaning towards doing a 3k.

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post #36 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 10:41 AM
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I love seeing these VBSS builds. The more time I have with my two, the more I grow to love what a performance bargain they are. I am having fantasies of adding two more to the garage theater.
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post #37 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 10:46 AM
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Hey Craig,

I am interested in how you plan on integrating the two subs. Are you going to run the VBSS and the Marty at the same time? Are you going to high pass the vbss at 31Hz and let the Marty handle 31-17Hz?

I have seen vets on this sub warn newbies about mixing differently tuned ported subs, but I'm not solid on the theory behind that idea. I really like the idea of a two-way sub to combine the midbass bang-for-the buck of the vbss design and the full Marty for it's ulf-bang for the buck. Especially if I could design a Marty variant tuned even lower...

Keep up the great work!

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post #38 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarkoff500 View Post
I love seeing these VBSS builds. The more time I have with my two, the more I grow to love what a performance bargain they are. I am having fantasies of adding two more to the garage theater.

Zarkoff, I'm getting more and more excited to start playing music through mine and hearing comments like yours adds even more motivation for me to finish them soon. I don't think I've read anything but positive reviews about the VBSS.



I'm happy with my UM18 in a mini-marty, but it just doesn't play music like I thought it would. I think these dual VBSS's tuned to 31hz will be the ideal setup and give me what I'm hoping for.






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Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
Hey Craig,

I am interested in how you plan on integrating the two subs. Are you going to run the VBSS and the Marty at the same time? Are you going to high pass the vbss at 31Hz and let the Marty handle 31-17Hz?

I have seen vets on this sub warn newbies about mixing differently tuned ported subs, but I'm not solid on the theory behind that idea. I really like the idea of a two-way sub to combine the midbass bang-for-the buck of the vbss design and the full Marty for it's ulf-bang for the buck. Especially if I could design a Marty variant tuned even lower...

Keep up the great work!

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Thanks Dan.John.



To answer your question: Yes. I plan to either run an iNuke3k or 6k. Regardless of which one I choose, I'll run both the UM18 and dual VBBSs to the two inuke channels @ 4ohms each. I'll wire the UM18 in series for 4ohms, and parallel the PA460s for 4ohms as well.



Within the DSP tuning, I'll hopefully be able to set the UM18 to play ~50hz and down with a cutoff at 17hz. For the VBSS's, I'll have them playing 40hz up to ~150hz. Does that sound reasonable for the PA460s? I have a set of Cerwin-Vega bookshelfs on their own amp that'll take over from there.



As per @LTD02 's graph in the VBSS thread here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56126856 , it doesn't look like the 31hz tuned VBSS starts coming alive until ~50hz or so.



I figure the overlap will give me some room to adjust both sub setups.
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post #39 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post

Bryce, remember both the UM18 and the dual VBSS's will be for a music setup in my office. With that in mind, do you still think I need a 6k amp? I'm kind of leaning towards doing a 3k.
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Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
Hey Craig,

I am interested in how you plan on integrating the two subs. Are you going to run the VBSS and the Marty at the same time? Are you going to high pass the vbss at 31Hz and let the Marty handle 31-17Hz?

I have seen vets on this sub warn newbies about mixing differently tuned ported subs, but I'm not solid on the theory behind that idea. I really like the idea of a two-way sub to combine the midbass bang-for-the buck of the vbss design and the full Marty for it's ulf-bang for the buck. Especially if I could design a Marty variant tuned even lower...

Keep up the great work!

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3000 using Tapatalk
I don't know enough about the amps honestly to tell you if you will need the 6k dsp. I am just assuming so from reading in the Marty thread... If you go inuke 3000dsp, it was recommended to bridge it to run the UM. My other main concern is that the PA460s are very efficient. They would run fine off of 1 of the inuke3000dsp channels. You could get all the volume out of them you needed, but I don't know if you could level match the UM to them very well because it will be much less sensitive and need more power for the same playing level. (maybe you can, I'm just saying in my opinion, this is a possible concern.)

I have the UM 18 on a 6000dsp and my two VBSS on a 3000dsp. I have to run the gain a decent amount higher on the 6000 dsp to get similar output to the VBSS's on the 3000dsp. Keep in mind, I do have an fv25hp running with the full marty. If I didn't have the FV25hp, I would have to run the Marty even hotter (they are both co located in a corner and I'm getting +6dB). If you are using the 3000dsp, unbridged with the UM 18 already and are happy, then maybe you will be fine.

*edit. I was thinking and part of the reason i have to run the 6000dsp hotter is that my pa460s are very near field. I think the points above are still valid, but the vbss being nearfield definitely effects the lack of gain i have to use to get the same output as the marty.
As John mentioned, I am running exactly how he said. I have the dual VBSS's handling 31 Hz up to about 90Hz where I crossover to my speakers. The Marty and FV25hp are running from roughly 15Hz to 30Hz. They have integrated very well. The only graphs I could find that I saved were compression graphs of the full setup. This will show you what they are capable in 7000 ft^3.

I also showed the FR I'm getting with dual VBSS and then with the Marty. I used a minidsp 2x4 HD to level the peaks of the VBSS's. The red line is before correction (VBSS only), and the Orange is after correction (VBSS only). The purple shows the marty by itself. I couldn't find the FR for the marty + the FV25hp together, but its very similar and +6dB. The compression chart will show you the FR of all four playing at the same time.

Not sure if I answered any questions, but hopefully it will help.
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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, DIYSG HT12s (L,C,R), PSA mt 110s (SR,SL), 2 VBSS, Submaximus, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700

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post #40 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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If you are using the 3000dsp, unbridged with the UM 18 already and are happy, then maybe you will be fine.

I'm actually running my UM18 off of a Parts Express 250w plate amp I already had.




Thanks for all the info.
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post #41 of 119 Old 06-17-2018, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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I started priming the cabs today, but not without having Diesel do a final inspection first.






He's very picky about the finish sanding and smoothness of the driver cutout.





The inspection process can be very exhausting.


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post #42 of 119 Old 06-23-2018, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Got the cabinets primed.





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post #43 of 119 Old 06-24-2018, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Getting closer...



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post #44 of 119 Old 06-24-2018, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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In other news, my plans to run one of the new iNukes, the NX series, might have to change. I spoke with Parts Express and while they will carry the NX series amps, it won't be until August/September that they are available. I'm not sure I can wait that long. My temporary amp is a Parts Express plate amp, the SPA250, so in order to power the dual VBSSs, I have to disconnect my UM18 in the meantime.
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post #45 of 119 Old 06-26-2018, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about an amp yet. I don't know if I want to wait until the NX amps are available, or go with an iNuke.


In the meantime, getting the woofers installed:













UM18 already occupies my office.
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post #46 of 119 Old 06-26-2018, 11:13 AM
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I've seen several pics from golks in DIY that have the speaker wire run through the ports. Is there any particular reaaon for doing this? It avoids putting a speakon connector plate on the box i guess...How do you then connect to the amp? Just curious if there is any specific reasoning behind it.

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Equipment: Yamaha 3050, Oppo 103d, DIYSG HT12s (L,C,R), PSA mt 110s (SR,SL), 2 VBSS, Submaximus, 4 driver BOSS build, umik-1, Epson 3700
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post #47 of 119 Old 06-27-2018, 09:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I've seen several pics from golks in DIY that have the speaker wire run through the ports. Is there any particular reaaon for doing this? It avoids putting a speakon connector plate on the box i guess...How do you then connect to the amp? Just curious if there is any specific reasoning behind it.

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Bryce, I'm running the speaker wire through the ports temporarily. I'm also just using leftover sections of 16 and 18 gauge wire. I plan to run 12 or 10 gauge for the finished wiring. Ultimately, when I order an amp, I will also order some terminals similar to these:


https://www.parts-express.com/parts-...posts--260-303


Assuming I get an iNuke, I'll still have to use SpeakOns on one end of the cables, but I'm fine with using traditional terminals on my subwoofer cabinets.


EDIT: I realized I didn't completely answer your question Bryce - I'm currently powering my subs with a Parts Express plate amp, so it has regular output speaker cables that I wire-nut my subs to.

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post #48 of 119 Old 06-27-2018, 09:10 PM - Thread Starter
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In the process of mounting the second PA460 in the cabinet, it started to slip off the edge and caught the binding post bracket on the edge of the cabinet. End result, the cheap, brittle plastic bracket broke.









Thankfully, I have the abilities to design a new bracket and 3D print it.









Got the new bracket installed.


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post #49 of 119 Old 07-04-2018, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I apologize for the delay in getting these pictures up. After (having to) fabricate a new binding post bracket, I got both PA460s installed in the 31hz @LTD02 cabinets. I disconnected my UM18 and connected the 460s in parallel to my SPA250 plate amp and fired them up. The punch is very impressive with them. So far, my music listening experience has been very satisfying. I mean as we all know, the UM18 would excel with the ULFs, but since this is setup is strictly for audio, the 460s play pretty much 100% of the same stuff the UM18 did, with even more output. I don't notice stuff rattling and vibrating as much with the 460s, compared to the UM18, but that's OK with me. Anyway, I'll share more feedback later.



Onto the pictures - PA460 next to the UM18:






Current layout: dual 31hz PA460s, and a UM18.


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post #50 of 119 Old 07-04-2018, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I would like to mention these are all in my office, which is 8'x10'. It doesn't take much to pressurize the room and reach levels of almost-intolerable bass.


And this is with a 250w plate amp, and the UM18 isn't connected. I find myself asking if it's really necessary to throw an iNuke 6k into the mix or not. Perhaps just the 3k?
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post #51 of 119 Old 07-04-2018, 05:16 PM - Thread Starter
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What confuses me is, even with just this 250w plate amp powering both of the 460s, I'm seeing/hearing some serious (to me) output and excursion. Like enough to make me a little nervous that I'm going to damage the 460s. What is going on with that?
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post #52 of 119 Old 07-04-2018, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post
What confuses me is, even with just this 250w plate amp powering both of the 460s, I'm seeing/hearing some serious (to me) output and excursion. Like enough to make me a little nervous that I'm going to damage the 460s. What is going on with that?
The VBSS was designed with the dsp/peq of the inuke to keep the drivers and amp safe. Without those performance and safety are compromised. I am using an inuke1000dsp and have had no issues or heard bad noises even into the clip light with EOT intro using the settings from mgt90.
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post #53 of 119 Old 07-04-2018, 06:39 PM
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To be honest. In your situation I think you'll be MORE than happy with the iNuke3000 DSP with one channel for the UM18 and the other channel for both of the PA460s like you had planned.


I would echo that you should be careful with low frequencies on the PAs. I kind of doubt you'll hurt them with that plate amp, but I think you could easily exceed max excursion if you're not careful.
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post #54 of 119 Old 07-04-2018, 08:07 PM
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the 3000dsp is plenty for the mid bass modules, almost perfectly suited actually.

the high pass filter in the plate amp is probably set around 20hz, which is too low to offer excursion protection for cabs tuned to 31hz.

be careful until you get the 3000dsp. then set the high pass at around 30hz or a hair lower depending on how things seem to be working.

cabs look good!

edit. if you want to run a 6000dsp, one channel for the um18 and wire the pa460's in SERIES on the second channel, that will provide protection against too much volume. :-)

wiring in series effectively cuts the voltage in half for each driver.
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post #55 of 119 Old 07-05-2018, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarkoff500 View Post
The VBSS was designed with the dsp/peq of the inuke to keep the drivers and amp safe. Without those performance and safety are compromised. I am using an inuke1000dsp and have had no issues or heard bad noises even into the clip light with EOT intro using the settings from mgt90.

I guess I hadn't thought about it that way. That makes sense. I'm not sure what the cutoff is for my plate amp. All the more reason I need to order an iNuke soon.






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To be honest. In your situation I think you'll be MORE than happy with the iNuke3000 DSP with one channel for the UM18 and the other channel for both of the PA460s like you had planned.

I would echo that you should be careful with low frequencies on the PAs. I kind of doubt you'll hurt them with that plate amp, but I think you could easily exceed max excursion if you're not careful.

Ok, that helps me make up my mind. iNuke3k for me!






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the 3000dsp is plenty for the mid bass modules, almost perfectly suited actually.

the high pass filter in the plate amp is probably set around 20hz, which is too low to offer excursion protection for cabs tuned to 31hz.

be careful until you get the 3000dsp. then set the high pass at around 30hz or a hair lower depending on how things seem to be working.

cabs look good!

edit. if you want to run a 6000dsp, one channel for the um18 and wire the pa460's in SERIES on the second channel, that will provide protection against too much volume. :-)

wiring in series effectively cuts the voltage in half for each driver.

Thanks for the feedback and thanks for the 31hz tuned cabinet designs. As mentioned, I'll go with a 3k iNuke. For my office, I think that will be plenty. Once I have the iNuke, I'll make sure to set all of the high and low pass filters for the appropriate drivers.
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post #56 of 119 Old 07-05-2018, 02:23 PM
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I believe the sp240 amp has an 18-19 hz high pass. The SPA250 may have something similar.
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post #57 of 119 Old 07-05-2018, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post
...
Thanks for the feedback and thanks for the 31hz tuned cabinet designs. As mentioned, I'll go with a 3k iNuke. For my office, I think that will be plenty. Once I have the iNuke, I'll make sure to set all of the high and low pass filters for the appropriate drivers.
...
no problem. the inuke can power two of those drivers on one channel in parallel. that will give them up to about 50 volts each, which is good power. with the protective high pass, you'll be in good shape. --thumbs up--
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post #58 of 119 Old 08-27-2018, 08:29 AM
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Any updates to this build?

How'd integration go with the single 6k (if that is what you decided).

I am finding myself go down the same path. I listen to a ton of music--I want to build a single ultimax for ULF but don't know if i will be disappointed (and inevitably add two VBSS)..
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post #59 of 119 Old 08-27-2018, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by iamwu View Post
Any updates to this build?

How'd integration go with the single 6k (if that is what you decided).

I am finding myself go down the same path. I listen to a ton of music--I want to build a single ultimax for ULF but don't know if i will be disappointed (and inevitably add two VBSS)..
Pro drivers all the way for music, can't emphasise this enough, compared to an Ultimax they have much more midbass impact and oomph for lack of a better word.

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post #60 of 119 Old 08-27-2018, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by iamwu View Post
Any updates to this build?

How'd integration go with the single 6k (if that is what you decided).

I am finding myself go down the same path. I listen to a ton of music--I want to build a single ultimax for ULF but don't know if i will be disappointed (and inevitably add two VBSS)..



Ask and you shall receive!



Update - For the last 2-3 months I've ONLY been running the 31hz PA460s off of the SP250w plate amp. Again, these are for music only, and I've been very happy with them. I still completely plan to run both the PA460s and the UM18, but I'm still waiting for the NX3000D amp to be released. I know the NX3000 is available, but I want to have the DSP abilities. So for the moment, I'm listening to music with just the PA460s. The UM18 is idle, which bothers me. Hopefully not for much longer.


However, to answer your question, for music listening, the dual PA460s in the 31hz cabinet @LTD02 designed, I'm very happy. The PA460s definitely "sound" better than the UM18. But keep in mind, I don't have any type of DSP either. But I don't think that will make a difference in music listening. Bottom line, the UM18 is designed for the ULF below most music. Even when I listen to bass-boosted songs, the PA460s can still punch out the lower frequencies.



If I had to advise you towards one or the other, I would suggest the PA460s. I don't regret getting my UM18, but knowing what I know now, I would've just done the 460s instead. For the cost of a single UM18 in a mini-marty, you can easily do a dual PA460 setup and have money leftover. And the data and graphs that have been posted on here don't lie - dual PA460s will out perform a single UM18 for music.









Quote:
Originally Posted by monty6400 View Post
Pro drivers all the way for music, can't emphasise this enough, compared to an Ultimax they have much more midbass impact and oomph for lack of a better word.

Definitely true. I'm still eagerly awaiting the arrival of the NX3000D amps so I can really put some power to my 460s AND the UM18! My neighbors will hate me!
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