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post #61 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 01:43 PM
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Don't try breaking in the new drivers. If you like listening to bass head tracks, the drivers will break in naturally in one listening session.
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post #62 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 01:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Don't try breaking in the new drivers. If you like listening to bass head tracks, the drivers will break in naturally in one listening session.
Gotcha.
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post #63 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krholmberg View Post
Isn't that true of putting a 15a amp on a 20a line? People on here do that all the time if I'm not mistaken.
Nothing bad happens to those people because they either: don't crank it to 11 with sinewaves at minimum impedance, or the fuses in their amps are rated slightly higher than 20a... (or they have just been super duper lucky thus far.)

In either case, it's a violation of building/electrical/fire codes to put lower amperage equipment on high amperage circuits or high amperage equipment on low amperage circuits.
It's just asking for trouble.
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post #64 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by bebb View Post
Really bodged things today. I got a replacement UM18, now that they are back in stock. To break it in, I decided to loop Bass Test 100 Hz to 5 Hz Ultimate Subwoofer Bass Test from youtube. I had the volume set at -20dB and the first two inuke lights lit steady. Came back after about an hour, turned it up to -12 dB to where the red LED just started flickering on the verge of clipping. Went downstairs (the subs are in the basement) to check on them. The one UM had a death rattle. The replacement UM18 had nothing. Both speakers hot around the voice coil area. Went back upstairs and the amp had the led ring around the gain knobs red. Reset the amp. Same thing. Disconnected both speakers, amp lights show the amp to be working. Connect the speakers, amp goes red around gain knobs. Lesson? INukes CAN kill UM18s when dedicated bass tracks played, Occasional high output from movies is OK.
Playing woofer-fryer songs, on loop, for hours, unattended... (what could possibly go wrong! )

Please don't play any more tester songs (from any source) on the FI's (or on any other sub brands / speaker brands).

Hopefully the FI's will last more than a day in your hands...


That said: I always break-in my subs using sinewaves for hours on end. hehe!
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 06-20-2018 at 07:30 PM.
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post #65 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Yeess.


I always advise folks around here not to learn the hard way by using sustained synthetic test signals as this is a torture test for subs and amps and should only be used when you have a thorough understanding of your system's limits. I hate to hear that you damaged another driver and put your amplifier in harm's way. Let's analyze what happened a bit...

This is "BIGGEST BASS DROP EVER! (EXTREME BASS TEST!!!)":


This is "
Bass Test 100 Hz to 5 Hz Ultimate Subwoofer Bass Test":


I'm guessing you put your UM's in 4 cube flatpacks in which case here is the impedance curve:


Looking at the above, if you're tripping breakers that quickly and melting coils with the biggest bass drop test which has fundamentals centered at 38-48Hz which has a fairly high impedance that your amp sees, this means you are turning the level up WAAAAAAAY too much. You are expecting too much output from your system in comparison to how much you've invested in it is my guess.

Then because your average levels that you push your sub system are too high obviously you'll run into problems when you reach impedance minimums, power goes up and your source material is synthetic sine tones. You either need to decrease the listening levels or put more into your amplifier power, driver's coil power rating and overall displacement.

I don't think that anyone should listen to these ridiculous youtube sub "test" tracks. They are put together by people who are ignorant to the basic principles of mixing audio, they don't tell you anything about your system and almost everything they create is more dangerous than a song that would come out of a production studio.
What app provides those frequency visualizations?
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post #66 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 08:30 PM
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So how does electronic music factor in to this? I mean aren't pads approaching a sort of "synthetic test signal"? Also, at least with the Fi's he can recone them

EDIT: Here's an example of something with low, deep, wobbly, sustained bass.

Last edited by CrusherW9; 06-20-2018 at 08:44 PM.
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post #67 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 0100010 View Post
What app provides those frequency visualizations?
SpecLab

http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html
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post #68 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CrusherW9 View Post
So how does electronic music factor in to this? I mean aren't pads approaching a sort of "synthetic test signal"?
That song is only 35-200hz. Although I didn't listen to the whole thing.

The signal doesn't matter really. There are only two things that kill subs:

1) bottoming
2) coil heat

Bottoming is pretty obvious because it will be moving lots and making clacking/clipping type sounds.

Coil heat is impossible to detect in most cases, until it's too late, which is why it is the # 1 killer of subs.
(Especially car subs, in a trunk, in the summer, during a demo session...)

There are two frequency ranges that heat subwoofer's up LOTS:
1) Single digit bass (approaching 0hz)
2) 50-300hz (mid-bass)

For a ported or horned sub, there is one frequency that will also heat the coil up, and that is the tuning frequency. Where excursion is near zero and it just sits and bakes, the port is the only thing letting the heat out. (Inadequately I might add.)

In fact most horned subs have such low excursion that they typically operate entirely in their thermal-zone above tuning. Imagine a Lambo that never leaves a stop light, sitting and rev'ing, the radiator fan is the only thing saving it; and last I checked... cone don't have fans or rads.

Single digit bass kills subs because the sustained power approaches the DC rail voltage of the amp (which has a high AC RMS equivalence. i.e. power-under-the-curve)

Mid-bass heats up coils because it is a high frequency, where again, excursion is near zero.
No air moving past the coil = heats up WAY faster. Nothing to get rid of the heat.

You can kill a 1000w sub with only say 200watts if the frequency is say 1-5Hz.
Or perhaps with just slightly more power after an hour's worth of jamming mid-bass continously.

and that's why we buy a zillion 18's and a zillion amps:
more coils + more heatsinks = better cooling (i.e. bassing for longer without any heating issues).
It's not magic.
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post #69 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
and that's why we buy a zillion 18's and a zillion amps:
more coils + more heatsinks = better cooling (i.e. bassing for longer without any heating issues).
Wouldn't that be counter productive since you're cutting the excursion required for any given SPL as you add more subs? I guess you're lowering the power per coil too, though, and going from 1 to 2 subs for instance means you're halving the excursion with 1/4 the power so I see how that's better.
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post #70 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 10:37 PM
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Amplifier clipping is a double whammy.

It causes the woofer to spend more time not moving, which causes more heat.
It also causes the power output to go (up to) 2x the amplifiers rms rating. i.e. more power, and thus even more heat.

If the signal wasn't clipping, the wattage would be lower and the coil could be spending more time moving past air molecules, with which to cool it down.

Clipping also causes the amplifier to heat up, as it doesn't give the transistors or the capacitors or the power supply a chance to recover.

Clipping should always be avoided, you don't need that last db, unless you are in a car comp and getting paid to win more than the equipment's cost.

Clipping is an oven set to Self-Cleaning mode.

If you want things to last a long time, avoid any and all clipping...

Clipping also causes distortion. Clipping = not SQ/HiFi
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post #71 of 79 Old 06-20-2018, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrusherW9 View Post
Wouldn't that be counter productive since you're cutting the excursion required for any given SPL as you add more subs? I guess you're lowering the power per coil too, though, and going from 1 to 2 subs for instance means you're halving the excursion with 1/4 the power so I see how that's better.
The increased efficiency and reduced excursion is the saving grace of horns. Reducing heat and distortion.

They are 6db louder than ported, and 6-18db more than sealed, and as long as you don't try to extract the last 1-3db long-term, then it typically isn't a problem...

If you do need the full 6db long-term, it is best to build 2, of any box type...
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post #72 of 79 Old 06-21-2018, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That said: I always break-in my subs using sinewaves for hours on end. hehe!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlIWHMwEetk
Might be good to mention what source use for your sinewaves, so folks reading this don't go straight to Youtube and search for bass sinewaves and just end up with more videos with clipped audio.

I would assume REW would be a straightforward source of a clean audio signal for sinewaves with no clipping.

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post #73 of 79 Old 06-21-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
In either case, it's a violation of building/electrical/fire codes to put lower amperage equipment on high amperage circuits or high amperage equipment on low amperage circuits.
It's just asking for trouble.
If you skydive often... eventually gravity will win! It only takes once.
Ridiculous. It is not a violation of anything, nor is it unsafe.

Circuit breakers protect the household wiring. Fuses in devices protect devices. Circuit breakers have never been intended for device protection. The only way you could cause any sort of safety concern is by using unfused devices, by using the wrong power cord (assuming your fuse is in the device and not in the plug of the cord of the device), or by putting a 20A breaker on a 14 gauge wiring run.

Additionally the NEC allows you to legally install exactly one (non-duplex) 20A outlet on a 15A line, and it does absolutely allow 15A outlets on 20A lines. 15A outlets are rated 20A anyway - they are just keyed differently. This 20A/15A thing is specific to the NEC and those amperage circuits at 120/115 volts. This does not apply to all combinations of voltages/currents, or in all countries in the world.

Sidenote: You shouldn't actually expect to use more than 80% of the rated capacity of a circuit for long periods of time. You can actually trip a breaker by drawing its rated current for an extended time. 15A circuits are intended to drive up to 12A continuous. 20A circuits intended for up to 16A continuous. This also isn't a specific safety issue; it could just trip a breaker.

Of course, bad breakers are a possible safety issue, but that would be the case for any bad breaker regardless of what is hooked up to it.

No argument for doing things properly and as close to ideally as you can but i just feel like your explanation is overly negative about non-ideal situations, both in terms of safety and the NEC.

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post #74 of 79 Old 06-21-2018, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Cool, something to go play with...
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post #75 of 79 Old 08-02-2018, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post
We are missing pictures from this thread.
I said I would take pictures. Even thouygh it is no longer current, I said I would post pictures. See attached. Speaker coils completely fried.
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If bad sound were Faital, good sound would be almost impossible
Killed two Mach5 21s and three UM-18s (and counting?)
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post #76 of 79 Old 08-03-2018, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by bebb View Post
I said I would take pictures. Even thouygh it is no longer current, I said I would post pictures. See attached. Speaker coils completely fried.

"She's dead Jim"
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post #77 of 79 Old 08-04-2018, 06:18 AM
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the "big bass drops" in BIGGEST BASS DROP EVER! (EXTREME BASS TEST!!!) are just more or less sustained sine waves ~30dB higher in output than the other content.



that said, modeling the driver in the enclosure, i'm not sure how more than 1000 real watts could have been applied.

va*cos(phase angle) gives real power. in 10 c.f. sealed, the real power at full output from a 6000 in the 30-40hz ballpark would be about 400-650 real watts.
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post #78 of 79 Old 08-04-2018, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bebb View Post
Ran a 20 amp circuit to my inuke 6k. Played the same two songs I tried yesterday(BIGGEST BASS DROP EVER! (EXTREME BASS TEST!!!) and Bass I Love You). Good news is no more circuit breaker blowing! Bad news is now I need a new Ultimax 18.

I guess the circuit breaker blowing protected the ultimaxes. Live and learn. At least the one ultimax survived, and Parts Express has them back in stock.
did you at least record the driver going up in smoke Sad news, but you know the limits of that driver/enclosure now anyways.
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post #79 of 79 Old 08-04-2018, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The Duty Cycle on those songs are low. You need to play BassHead songs with "continuous sinewave power" behind them:

You wanna fry woofers? Play these two songs back to back at 1db below clipping = Dead subwoofers & amps!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLGrrRAmJhY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYqUeuNLIUc

For an extra challenge, proceeded by this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCl9aAPViF8
[We will release the magic-smoke at all costs! ]
Well, it didn't release the magic smoke on the Ficar SSD NEO 18's. I just got and installed. So far so good, although I have not ported the cabibnets yet. Partly because I am getting a miniDSP to add a high pass filter set around 27Hz for when I do port.

If bad sound were Faital, good sound would be almost impossible
Killed two Mach5 21s and three UM-18s (and counting?)
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