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post #1 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer options for my room

I'd like to get some subwoofer suggestions based on my room layout and listening habits... please


This is a dedicated theater room with an odd nook at the front that I'm looking to put the subs in (see attachment).
I will be listening to music about 20% of the time with the other portion split between action movies and concert videos. I listen at fairly loud levels an am after both mid-bass impact and ULF response.


Given the space I have, I was thinking two 18" subs for ULF and two more for mid-bass impact. I can fit four full-Martys or VBSS enclosures, but am stumped on what sub/enclosure combo to use for each type of output. Maybe two RSS460HO's for ULF and two PA460's for mid-bass... or maybe 4 21DSS115-4's in enclosures like eng399 built? I will be pairing the subs with either 3 HTM-12's or Fusion-12's for LCR and have not decided on amps yet.


If yall could help me narrow things down with suggestions, I'd really appreciate it!!!
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post #2 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 07:20 AM
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"Narrow" things down LOL You've just opened a can of worms. What is your budget?

BTW, what problem do you have with the sub suggestions in your other threads you started on this topic? Did something Change? You really are not going to get any different suggestions unless something has drastically changed

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post #3 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 07:23 AM
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I would go with dual 21” DSS115-4s in large ported cabinets up front for ULF, tuned to maybe 15hz. DSP those bad boys to play 15-50hz. And then four VBSSs with PA460s for midbass, spread around the room. I would use @LTD02 31hz tuned VBSS design to do 40hz and up.
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post #4 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
"Narrow" things down LOL You've just opened a can of worms. What is your budget?
Hahah, huge can of worms.

Its going to be difficult to get even sound for each listening position since you are essentially loading one corner up. You will definitely have a "hot" seat and a "null" seat. This can be good and bad because noone will experience it the way you want unless they sit in a hot seat, and that puts you in a null seat, but if someone hates bass throw them in the null seat lol.

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post #5 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
"Narrow" things down LOL You've just opened a can of worms. What is your budget?
...but if someone hates bass throw them in the null seat lol.
You can call it the Baby's Seat. 😁
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post #6 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 11:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
"Narrow" things down LOL You've just opened a can of worms. What is your budget?

BTW, what problem do you have with the sub suggestions in your other threads you started on this topic? Did something Change? You really are not going to get any different suggestions unless something has drastically changed
Basically having troubles making a decision... Once the UM's came back in stock, I thought about jumping on them, but didn't get much feedback in my other thread. Budget wise, I'd rather not spend much more than 4 DSS115's plus amps cost.


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I would go with dual 21” DSS115-4s in large ported cabinets up front for ULF, tuned to maybe 15hz. DSP those bad boys to play 15-50hz. And then four VBSSs with PA460s for midbass, spread around the room. I would use @LTD02 31hz tuned VBSS design to do 40hz and up.
I keep leaning towards the B&C's, but I'd rather not have sub cabinets in the room itself. I was originally going to have a proscenium, but I suppose I could build a "cabinet" around 4 PA460's like @lentham is playing with and line them across the front of the room?


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Hahah, huge can of worms.

Its going to be difficult to get even sound for each listening position since you are essentially loading one corner up. You will definitely have a "hot" seat and a "null" seat. This can be good and bad because noone will experience it the way you want unless they sit in a hot seat, and that puts you in a null seat, but if someone hates bass throw them in the null seat lol.
Yeah, the arrangement is not ideal... I even tried reversing the layout so the nook was in the back of the room, but that produced other problems that were worse... I'm hoping that by angling the subs towards the center I can get away without too many nulls.



Let me ask some more pointed questions, again with the goal of keeping everything behind an AT screen;
  • Between the UM18-22's and the RSS460HO's, which would net better ULF if they were each in a Full Marty?
  • Displacement is king, so does it make sense to go with 4 DSS115-4s where 2 cabinets are tuned super low and two are tuned for mid-bass?
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post #7 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 12:03 PM
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IF you put a sub in the opposite rear corner it may help, subwoofers arent really directional. You can aim them to an extent I suppose, I guess youll just have to see how it goes.

Do you have any way to do nearfield?

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post #8 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 12:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
IF you put a sub in the opposite rear corner it may help, subwoofers arent really directional. You can aim them to an extent I suppose, I guess youll just have to see how it goes.

Do you have any way to do nearfield?

I'll have two rows of seating, but not enough space behind the first row... I suppose I could look into some "end table" type enclosures on each side of the row... may have enough room for that.
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post #9 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 06:03 PM
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It may. The horn I built makes my room creak and easily pressurizes it, but it fires in from the left front corner behind the screen. The right seat is the hot seat, the left was a in a null, I had no say in the matter lol. So I know from experience, as well as from reading that one sub can only really be placed for one seat (Thats why im adding 4 12s nearfield). Even room response across all seats is something that is harder to do. If I'm showing off my theater I let my guest sit in the hot seat which puts me in the null. It depends on your goals, but you can't just eq any seat, the room and sub placement dictates a huge percentage.

The only idea I have that may help you is to build something under the screen that bumps out to give you room to put something on the right corner. Maybe a shallow design to save room, but I would keep an open mind to it depending on your goals. 4 vbss along the front wall under the screen may be a great start.


What's your plan for your right main speaker?

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post #10 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
[*]Between the UM18-22's and the RSS460HO's, which would net better ULF if they were each in a Full Marty?
UM18

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Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
[*]Displacement is king, so does it make sense to go with 4 DSS115-4s where 2 cabinets are tuned super low and two are tuned for mid-bass?[/LIST]
If you can afford 4 21DSS115's and they are on your list, what's holding you back? You'd be better off with each cab tuned the same unless there will also be a different crossover point. Besides, I doubt if you'd be unsatisfied with the mid bass with a lower tuned cab x4.

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post #11 of 24 Old 06-19-2018, 06:56 PM
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Excursion is the enemy of SQ.

Thus: It's all about maximizing cone area. (Not to be confused with cone-size, which helps and is related.)

Take for example the 16 PA-460's in my room.
12mm p-p x 16 is the same displacement as 1 18 doing 192mm p-p (which no 18 can do.)

Mine can do 5mm p-p all day, but you can't do 80mm p-p all day (besides, it will sound horrible getting even close to that.)

More cones x bigger cones = infinitely better!

Same goes for heat. How many watts does it take to drive a single 18 to 80mm? (Answer: Lots!)
2x the Watts is like 4x the heat.

Don't release the magic-smoke or the THD.

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post #12 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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What's your plan for your right main speaker?
My original plan was Titan-615LXs for LCR, but I feel like the wall behind the right speaker will change the way it sounds compared to the other two... I've attached a rough sketch with two B&C's stacked and the Titans.
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post #13 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
UM18


If you can afford 4 21DSS115's and they are on your list, what's holding you back? You'd be better off with each cab tuned the same unless there will also be a different crossover point. Besides, I doubt if you'd be unsatisfied with the mid bass with a lower tuned cab x4.
Like I said, having a hard time deciding I guess I'm afraid the B&Cs won't go as low as maybe some others?
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post #14 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 07:50 AM
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Like I said, having a hard time deciding I guess I'm afraid the B&Cs won't go as low as maybe some others?
Based on what? You can always model the B&Cs and compare them with the UM18. Also, eng99 has a video of his B&Cs playing a scene from oblivion and it didn't appear it was lacking at all. You could get two HS24 and be assured you'd have no problem on the low-end. They were on sale last I checked.

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post #15 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 09:49 AM
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If you have the space then it is better to get 3 $200 B&C 18's than 1 $600 21.

If you can only do 1 or a few, then get the biggest one you can afford. Even a $600 21 holds better value than $1900 SI-24 *if* you can forego the last n-th db below 25hz.
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post #16 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 10:08 AM
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None are crap drivers so you really can't go wrong with any of them.

12 B&C 18's or 4 21's
or 2 24's and 2 21's powered with a fp20k or two SpeakerPower 8k's or whatnot will give tonnes of good bass.

It should blow your head clean off.
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post #17 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 10:28 AM
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Like I said, having a hard time deciding I guess I'm afraid the B&Cs won't go as low as maybe some others?
First, I am not an expert but I just built 2 of the B&C 21DS115s and I think your statement is correct. I do not see these as a good driver for ULF. In my modeling excursion was a limiting factor below 22Hz. I built a roughtly 12.5cuft box with a tune of around 20 but still ended up having to put a high pass filter on them at 22 so excursion didn't go too high. I absolutely love the drivers and they sound great but I do think they are better suited for 25+. I kept my 4 HT18 drivers for the lower end and moved them nearfield, which is another option for you to consider. Put 2 drivers behind the screen and hide another 2 in a narrow box behind your row of seats. Having now experienced the feeling of an 18" driver (or 4 of them) less than a foot behind you is amazing. Really adds to the bass experience.
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post #18 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 11:30 AM
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Im not expert either but why would you tune at 20hz and expect ULF?

Sorry, I must be feeling fiesty lol.

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Every time you halve the frequency the excursion goes up like 4x (or the needed cone-area goes up 4x at the same excursion).

Just more evidence that: more cones = way better.

Pro drivers only have so much linear excursion. They are no RE-18 in the xmax department...

100db/w above 40hz is one thing. But getting that figure below 25hz is nearly impossible, especially for any single cone. (A 10hz horned 32" is about all that can be done ).
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post #20 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Im not expert either but why would you tune at 20hz and expect ULF?

Sorry, I must be feeling fiesty lol.
I had to smile at this... I used to think 30Hz was the cats meow... and then Nick (@Electrodynamic) played 8Hz for me. Granted, it was felt rather than heard, but it was a game changer!
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post #21 of 24 Old 06-20-2018, 04:48 PM
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Either you'd have to tune to 10-15hz or go sealed I'd imagine. I don't know much about those drivers but if 4 12" subs can hit 10hz sealed (eq and boosted) I'd bet some 21s could do it.

- MIRAGE OM-C2 Center, MIRAGE M490 L/R, 4 JBL 8330a surr , 8 x JBL 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC RS420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
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Im not expert either but why would you tune at 20hz and expect ULF?

Sorry, I must be feeling fiesty lol.
I wasn't expecting ULF. My point was that in my modeling I found that trying to get much output below 20Hz was almost impossible because of the excursion limitations of the driver. The B&C is better suited for 20 and up and possibly even 30 and up.
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post #23 of 24 Old 06-21-2018, 10:04 AM
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I would think it could do it if it were sealed?

4 12" jbl1214 can do 10hz sealed and they only have like 12mm xmax. The ported box is probably whats limiting low end in this case?

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post #24 of 24 Old 06-23-2018, 03:22 PM - Thread Starter
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After reading a bunch of build threads for different drivers, I think I'm going to do two B&C 21DS115s using @Eng 399's design. Of the several B&C builds I read through, folks kept describing the sound as clean and precise, which is attractive to me. I may not get the lowest of lows, but going this route will allow me to keep it simple without getting into multiple tunes, near-field locations, etc... Plus, since my HT is surrounded on all 6 sides by concrete, two 21's should pressurize it pretty easily.

Now on to finding an amp to drive them...
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