MiniDSP 2x4 or 2x4 HD for subs? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 30 Old 06-21-2018, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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MiniDSP 2x4 or 2x4 HD for subs?

I'm working on some Martycubes right now and accidentally bought an iNuke 6000 instead of the 6000DSP. It turns out there isn't much stock of the 6000DSP I can find so I'm considering using the miniDSP instead.

That brings me to my question: Will I get any benefit from the miniDSP 2x4HD over the regular one?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 30 Old 06-21-2018, 06:39 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, there is a minidsp thread, have you tried looking in there?
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post #3 of 30 Old 06-21-2018, 06:39 PM
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I believe the major advantages are support for balanced connections, more voltage available to drive pro amps, and more range to the delay function (70msec max?). The non HD model being lacking in those areas.
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post #4 of 30 Old 06-21-2018, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rec head View Post
I'm working on some Martycubes right now and accidentally bought an iNuke 6000 instead of the 6000DSP. It turns out there isn't much stock of the 6000DSP I can find so I'm considering using the miniDSP instead.



That brings me to my question: Will I get any benefit from the miniDSP 2x4HD over the regular one?



Thanks.


Everything I have read said get the HD model


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post #5 of 30 Old 06-21-2018, 08:22 PM
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Yea I say hd as well.

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post #6 of 30 Old 06-21-2018, 08:41 PM
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The HD also supports USB streaming which is quite useful with REW to see your signal chain.

Also, EQ below 20Hz that actually works properly.

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post #7 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 03:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
I believe the major advantages are support for balanced connections, more voltage available to drive pro amps, and more range to the delay function (70msec max?). The non HD model being lacking in those areas.
I thought the HD did not support balanced connections? Is there a balanced HD version available now?

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post #8 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
If I'm not mistaken, there is a minidsp thread, have you tried looking in there?
Thanks, you're probably right. I didn't think I'd be the first to ask the question but my searches didn't bring it up and I didn't think to look for a dedicated minidsp thread.

That's how it is at the end of the day.

Thanks for the other responses. I have to admit I was really hoping for more support for the regular version just because it is so much cheaper.
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post #9 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
I believe the major advantages are support for balanced connections, more voltage available to drive pro amps, and more range to the delay function (70msec max?). The non HD model being lacking in those areas.

How does the HD support balanced? The only model I'm aware of that does is the 2x4 Balanced. I'm also not sure (because I dont know much about the HD model), if it can output more voltage for pro amps than the regular 2x4 version with RCA's. Again that was a function of the 2x4 balanced.


In this case the output voltage isnt needed as the iNuke has been proved to be fine to drive from regular RCA outputs on most AVR's. Other amps may have other issues (My Gen 1 Crown XLS's need the 2x4 balanced to get the input signal strong enough to use the full amp).


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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Also, EQ below 20Hz that actually works properly.

Talk to me goose, what do you mean here?

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post #10 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 04:54 AM
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I'm pretty sure you are right about the balanced. I would go with the balanced if you are doing sealed or something where you might be upgrading to a more powerful amp than the inuke and need the extra voltage.

Also, I think Goose is reffering to the limitations of the inuke DSP below 20Hz. There are some workarounds to get boosts below 20Hz, but below 20Hz isn't explicitly supported on the inuke DSP. I don't actually own one so I may be wrong.

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post #11 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
Craig, I'm pretty sure you are right about the balanced. I would go with the balanced if you are doing sealed or something where you might be upgrading to a more powerful amp than the inuke and need the extra voltage.

Also, I think Goose is reffering to the limitations of the inuke DSP below 20Hz. There are some workarounds to get boosts below 20Hz, but below 20Hz isn't explicitly supported on the inuke DSP. I don't actually own one so I may be wrong.

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That is correct, I was making sure the reference to "DSP below 20hz" was not directed at the standard MiniDSP 2x4 or 2x4 balanced (which I have).

The iNuke only lets you set filters to 20hz, hence that workaround. The MiniDSP's (all of them) let you set filters down to 10hz.


Thats one reason I got the 2x4 balanced because I have sealed subs and am using a shelf filter down to 10hz to increase output.


Hence my request for clarification because as long as he's referring to the iNuke's, my wallet is still safe

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post #12 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
Also, I think Goose is reffering to the limitations of the inuke DSP below 20Hz. There are some workarounds to get boosts below 20Hz, but below 20Hz isn't explicitly supported on the inuke DSP. I don't actually own one so I may be wrong.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the miniDSP devices here. While it's possible to set cutoff frequencies lower than 20 Hz, the measured performance doesn't match the predicted performance all that well when using filters with such low cutoff frequencies. See these measurements of the 4x10 (in the section beginning with "miniDSP 4x10 HD measurements"). The reason for the discrepancy is the fixed-point filter coefficients used by the DSP chip. It can be seen that the behavior is much worse when using the plugin with the 96 kHz sample rate than with the 48 kHz plugin. The 2x4 HD uses a different DSP chip having floating-point filter coefficients. I've not seen any data on filter accuracy of this version when using filters with very low cutoff frequencies, but would be very interested if someone has a link showing such data. Then I could add it to my article about the different 2x4 versions.

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post #13 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the miniDSP devices here. While it's possible to set cutoff frequencies lower than 20 Hz, the measured performance doesn't match the predicted performance all that well when using filters with such low cutoff frequencies. See these measurements of the 4x10 (in the section beginning with "miniDSP 4x10 HD measurements"). The reason for the discrepancy is the fixed-point filter coefficients used by the DSP chip. It can be seen that the behavior is much worse when using the plugin with the 96 kHz sample rate than with the 48 kHz plugin. The 2x4 HD uses a different DSP chip having floating-point filter coefficients. I've not seen any data on filter accuracy of this version when using filters with very low cutoff frequencies, but would be very interested if someone has a link showing such data. Then I could add it to my article about the different 2x4 versions.

Awesome, and sorry to take this off track, but I'm gonna . So this issue ONLY applies if you are adding EQ like PEQ filters, highpass below 20 hz correct? And does it apply to the 2x4 RCA version and the 2x4 Balanced one?

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post #14 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Awesome, and sorry to take this off track, but I'm gonna . So this issue ONLY applies if you are adding EQ like PEQ filters, highpass below 20 hz correct?
It's a gradual degradation as you go the filter cutoff goes down in frequency. See the graph on this page just above where it says, "Comments miniDSP 4x10 HD low frequency instability". To read the numbers on the frequency axis, you need to click the graph, whereupon it gets huge. I can't seem to link to it for some reason, so you'll need to navigate to the page in order to see it. It shows that the lower the cutoff frequency of the high-pass, the more the response deviates from being "maximally flat" (should be no hump at all). You can see a slight hump even with a cutoff frequency of about 30 Hz. This probably won't matter for most applications, as the amplitude error is small. But for a tool like MSO for subwoofer optimization, it matters because these small amplitude errors are associated with phase errors that are larger than expected, and MSO is sensitive to filter phase response, not just amplitude.

You can also see from those graphs that for the 96 kHz plugin with the 4x10, the situation is pretty bad at low frequencies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
And does it apply to the 2x4 RCA version and the 2x4 Balanced one?
Yes. The behavior of the HD version is (to me at least) unknown. Maybe someone has seen data that I haven't, though. I asked miniDSP for the HD data, but they didn't get back to me.

Last edited by andyc56; 06-22-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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post #15 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
It's a gradual degradation as you go down in frequency. See the graph on this page just above where it says, "Comments miniDSP 4x10 HD low frequency instability". To read the numbers on the frequency axis, you need to click the graph, whereupon it gets huge. I can't seem to link to it for some reason, so you'll need to navigate to the page in order to see it. It shows that the lower the cutoff frequency of the high-pass, the more the response deviates from being "maximally flat" (should be no hump at all). You can see a slight hump even with a cutoff frequency of about 30 Hz. This probably won't matter for most applications, as the amplitude error is small. But for a tool like MSO for subwoofer optimization, it matters because these small amplitude errors are associated with phase errors that are larger than expected, and MSO is sensitive to filter phase response, not just amplitude.



You can also see from those graphs that for the 96 kHz plugin with the 4x10, the situation is pretty bad at low frequencies.







Yes. The behavior of the HD version is (to me at least) unknown. Maybe someone has seen data that I haven't, though. I asked miniDSP for the HD data, but they didn't get back to me.


Thanks. Good to know. In my case I’m using only a low shelf boost starting at 40hz so I should be ok. No other EQ w the MiniDSP. I’ve got only sealed subs lol.


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post #16 of 30 Old 06-22-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the miniDSP devices here. While it's possible to set cutoff frequencies lower than 20 Hz, the measured performance doesn't match the predicted performance all that well when using filters with such low cutoff frequencies. See these measurements of the 4x10 (in the section beginning with "miniDSP 4x10 HD measurements"). The reason for the discrepancy is the fixed-point filter coefficients used by the DSP chip. It can be seen that the behavior is much worse when using the plugin with the 96 kHz sample rate than with the 48 kHz plugin. The 2x4 HD uses a different DSP chip having floating-point filter coefficients. I've not seen any data on filter accuracy of this version when using filters with very low cutoff frequencies, but would be very interested if someone has a link showing such data. Then I could add it to my article about the different 2x4 versions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
It's a gradual degradation as you go the filter cutoff goes down in frequency. See the graph on this page just above where it says, "Comments miniDSP 4x10 HD low frequency instability". To read the numbers on the frequency axis, you need to click the graph, whereupon it gets huge. I can't seem to link to it for some reason, so you'll need to navigate to the page in order to see it. It shows that the lower the cutoff frequency of the high-pass, the more the response deviates from being "maximally flat" (should be no hump at all). You can see a slight hump even with a cutoff frequency of about 30 Hz. This probably won't matter for most applications, as the amplitude error is small. But for a tool like MSO for subwoofer optimization, it matters because these small amplitude errors are associated with phase errors that are larger than expected, and MSO is sensitive to filter phase response, not just amplitude.

You can also see from those graphs that for the 96 kHz plugin with the 4x10, the situation is pretty bad at low frequencies.



Yes. The behavior of the HD version is (to me at least) unknown. Maybe someone has seen data that I haven't, though. I asked miniDSP for the HD data, but they didn't get back to me.
You got it, that is exactly what I was referring to. My subs are tuned at 11.5Hz, so I wanted to make sure the ULF filters worked properly on the 2x4 HD before I bought it. MiniDSP assured me that they did in fact work, and I purchased the device. I have tested HPF and shelf filters down at 10-11Hz, and can confirm they work well. The great thing about the HD is that its USB streaming capability makes it so easy to see the results of filters by streaming to REW. This allowed me to test the ULF filters and confirm they were working as intended. It also allowed me to see my signal chain rolloff, as well as the effects of Audyssey. It's a super useful tool to me.
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post #17 of 30 Old 06-23-2018, 09:15 AM
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Since the HD version has a higher output voltage at 4v, does it then still suffer from a high noise floor as the regular unit does?
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post #18 of 30 Old 06-24-2018, 09:26 AM
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I'm not sure the HD version really can do the 4V out. If it can their datasheet is wrong.


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post #19 of 30 Old 06-24-2018, 12:08 PM
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What's the full-scale input voltage for an iNuke? (say a 6000DSP. Is the MiniDSP's 2V enough to get full power from an iNuke)
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post #20 of 30 Old 06-24-2018, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
What's the full-scale input voltage for an iNuke? (say a 6000DSP. Is the MiniDSP's 2V enough to get full power from an iNuke)
I get full power from my 6000DSP through my 2x4 HD.

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post #21 of 30 Old 06-25-2018, 06:08 AM
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I get full power from my 6000DSP through my 2x4 HD.
How is the noise on the HD vs regular unit?
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post #22 of 30 Old 06-25-2018, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpinMonster View Post
Since the HD version has a higher output voltage at 4v, does it then still suffer from a high noise floor as the regular unit does?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan.john303 View Post
I'm not sure the HD version really can do the 4V out. If it can their datasheet is wrong.


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The MiniDSP Balanced 2x4 can do 4V out, not the HD. The HD is only good for 2V out, as dan.john pointed out.
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The MiniDSP Balanced 2x4 can do 4V out, not the HD. The HD is only good for 2V out, as dan.john pointed out.
Thank yu. Does the 4V version regardless of model have a lower noise floor. I'm trying to find out if they all have hissing/hum
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post #24 of 30 Old 06-25-2018, 08:42 AM
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Thank yu. Does the 4V version regardless of model have a lower noise floor. I'm trying to find out if they all have hissing/hum
I can't answer that for you, unfortunately. The only one I own and have used is the original 2x4 balanced before they even had jumpers in them. Mine is only good for a max of 2V out. I only ever used it for sub duty and you could hear a low level of hiss out of my subs; not sure how pronounced it would be into full range speakers.
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I would recommend the HD. If you don't have balanced outputs on your AVR, this is the one to get. I just picked one up and love it. The higher delay settings are a big selling point. Didn't notice any hissing from it. I do have a ground loop issue but that's not the minidsp's fault.

Something else that no one mentioned is that fact that there is only one plugin for everything and its included with the purchase from parts-express.
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post #26 of 30 Old 06-25-2018, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
I would recommend the HD. If you don't have balanced outputs on your AVR, this is the one to get. I just picked one up and love it. The higher delay settings are a big selling point. Didn't notice any hissing from it. I do have a ground loop issue but that's not the minidsp's fault.

Something else that no one mentioned is that fact that there is only one plugin for everything and its included with the purchase from parts-express.
Thanks, I contacted PE today and they told me it is included. I'll be going with HD.
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post #27 of 30 Old 06-29-2018, 02:40 PM
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The MiniDSP Balanced 2x4 can do 4V out, not the HD. The HD is only good for 2V out, as dan.john pointed out.
Sorry late to the party again. I'm using a Marantz AVR and Crown XLS and I need to use the .775V setting on the XLS to get enough power. The non-HD has an input switch for .9V or 2V but the HD input is 2/4V. Does this mean I need to use the non-HD version? The outputs were discussed and I know I could switch the setting on the XLS accordingly, but the input had me concerned the HD would not work correctly due to low output from the AVR.
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post #28 of 30 Old 05-26-2019, 08:14 AM
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I have a peavey IPR7500dsp that can only high pass @30Hz .

I was looking at a minidsp2x4 for a high pass of 17.5.

Is the HD version worthwhile for this ? will the 2v vs 4v make a difference ?

The 2x4 is $139 canadian

the 2x4hd is $285
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post #29 of 30 Old 05-26-2019, 11:03 AM
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The regular 2x4 with RCA's is generally unsuitable for subwoofers. Get the HD or the 2x4 balanced.
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post #30 of 30 Old 05-26-2019, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The regular 2x4 with RCA's is generally unsuitable for subwoofers. Get the HD or the 2x4 balanced.
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