To Each His Own (driver size) - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 76 Old 06-27-2018, 04:33 PM
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Experienced members simply jump immediately to the known best overall option when someone asks. From there the restrictions and restraints for the person come to light and we work from there. I don’t think I have seen much deviation from that and don’t see a problem with it. We always end up somewhere unexpected in the end.

That said, I came here trying to do something simple that was better than my old ass 10” paradigm sub. Notnyt recommended 4 18’s but timing and finances put me at 2 lmsr’s. Now look at me..... 🙄🤣
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post #32 of 76 Old 06-27-2018, 05:03 PM
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Ill never forget the first time i saw an 18 sealed it just looked enormous. I was looking at a HSU sub for sale used and the gent just started building subs diy.

10s and 12s are fine but if one wants a truly great HT experience getting extension down to 10 or 15 and getting 115db takes a bunch of 12s in all but the smallest rooms. Its just a matter of efficiency imo.
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post #33 of 76 Old 06-27-2018, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric HA View Post
+1 to this. I lived with dual Rythmik 12"s for a decade, and finally admitted that they weren't getting the job done. I have since supplemented them with two 18"s and the improvement has been amazing. I have also "hid" one 18" as furniture (blanket trunk) and the other is tucked between two bookshelves.




Tell me more about this blanket trunk. Does it also store blankets successfully?

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post #34 of 76 Old 06-27-2018, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
Sometimes I think there is too much emphasis in this forum on 18" (or bigger) drivers. And too much derision for smaller drivers. Sure big subs are great, lots of output, good bang for buck.
But MANY people just don't want or need drivers that big. Big drivers mean big boxes. Big boxes means loss of space. I live in a small house - 1000square ft. And that space is precious. I got lucky and was able to build something big, but most people with limited space just don't have that option. Most people have many other considerations and a smaller driver fits their purposes MUCH better. 15" driver, 2 cu ft box, or less even, is much more ideal and realistic for a lot of people, so just because someone wants to use a 15", 12" or 10" driver doesn't mean squat. That is just what works for them.
I did not read through the whole thread, but my builds are for a living room. Some (like my wife) consider 3 subs excessive, but at the same time she enjoys the end result.

I built an 18" sub because "what if" hit me. I don't regret it at all, but I can't say that it performs that much differently then the 12" subs I built before in that room. Still have to tweak settings...

Basically for me the whole point to DIY is not the size of the driver, but the "what if". If I didn't have the "what if" in my mind to begin with, I may have never gone DIY. My Infinity 1260 builds far out perform the PL-200 I started down this road with. And they can look like whatever I can imagine.

TL;DR - To me, it isn't the size of the driver that matters, it's the result of the build(s).
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post #35 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 06:23 AM
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The 32$ jbl cs1214 really changed my mind on the entire big sub thing. 8 of them is a game changer for both evening out room response, and ULF plus, midbass galore.

I cant wait to get my 4 up and running and im still on the fence about ordering 4 more to put 2 stacked in each front corner.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ss-xxls12.html

That thread also opened my eyes. We cant all afford what bassthathz is running, but a slew of 12's can do amazing things as well.
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post #36 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Ortizer View Post
Tell me more about this blanket trunk. Does it also store blankets successfully?

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No, I should have said faux blanket trunk. It's just a 4 cu. ft. box that I veneered with walnut, made some cuts to the veneer to simulate a lid, and mounted a trunk latch and some trunk corners.
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post #37 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
The 32$ jbl cs1214 really changed my mind on the entire big sub thing. 8 of them is a game changer for both evening out room response, and ULF plus, midbass galore.

I cant wait to get my 4 up and running and im still on the fence about ordering 4 more to put 2 stacked in each front corner.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...ss-xxls12.html

That thread also opened my eyes. We cant all afford what bassthathz is running, but a slew of 12's can do amazing things as well.
12's are perfectly fine IF you have a heard of them.... at least EIGHT.

This post sums it up nicely... https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56405606

It's all about cone area and displacement and 18's just get you where you need to be more efficiently... an 18 has OVER TWICE the Sd of a 12.....

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post #38 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 09:12 AM
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I think we are seeing 12's recommended a bunch is because a ton of us got in on that 34 dollar JBL CS1214 (or other versions). 4 of those (total cost of 136) will model similar to a single UM18 given similar sized sealed boxes, and wattage. The JBL's however have a better response up high....

So if 4 of those 12's = 1 UM18, then you can save a TON of cash, assuming you have the wattage and space to build that box, and you are looking sealed. The 12's also allow for a skinner depth of the box, so you can put them in places you cant put a 18.


So to put it in perspective, I have plans to put 12 12" drivers in my setup (I have 16 total if needed). I'm going all sealed, so that is another factor here. But my 12 drivers equal 3 UM18's per WinISD. I spent 234 on those 12 drivers. 3 UM18's is about 1k. So for 40% of the cost of the 3 UM18's I have similar performance, with smaller form factor options than I would with the Ultimax's.

Now this is a very specific application, but since the JBL's are still around (though not as cheap as I got mine for), its a VERY attractive option. Just like we saw a TON of 1260/1262 builds when those models went on clearance.
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post #39 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I think we are seeing 12's recommended a bunch is because a ton of us got in on that 34 dollar JBL CS1214 (or other versions). 4 of those (total cost of 136) will model similar to a single UM18 given similar sized sealed boxes, and wattage. The JBL's however have a better response up high....

So if 4 of those 12's = 1 UM18, then you can save a TON of cash, assuming you have the wattage and space to build that box, and you are looking sealed. The 12's also allow for a skinner depth of the box, so you can put them in places you cant put a 18.


So to put it in perspective, I have plans to put 12 12" drivers in my setup (I have 16 total if needed). I'm going all sealed, so that is another factor here. But my 12 drivers equal 3 UM18's per WinISD. I spent 234 on those 12 drivers. 3 UM18's is about 1k. So for 40% of the cost of the 3 UM18's I have similar performance, with smaller form factor options than I would with the Ultimax's.

Now this is a very specific application, but since the JBL's are still around (though not as cheap as I got mine for), its a VERY attractive option. Just like we saw a TON of 1260/1262 builds when those models went on clearance.
Excellent point ^^^^ .... and if you are going AT, it doesn't matter if there are 16 12's or 4 18's behind the screen as long as it meets your goals.

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post #40 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I think we are seeing 12's recommended a bunch is because a ton of us got in on that 34 dollar JBL CS1214 (or other versions). 4 of those (total cost of 136) will model similar to a single UM18 given similar sized sealed boxes, and wattage. The JBL's however have a better response up high....

So if 4 of those 12's = 1 UM18, then you can save a TON of cash
Yup, you are exactly right, I fell in love with that.

1 18 is still just 1 sub, 1 sub doesnt give even room response in all listening positions, 2 helps, but 8 12's is better then 2 18's in my eyes lol.

I dont think ill jump in on the 18"-24" subs. I like what the 8-16 12's are showing/doing.

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post #41 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 09:47 AM
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I should mention that we are assuming those 4 12s are within the same enclosure. Otherwise my situation doesn’t hold true.

And again, it only works well with the JBLs, in sealed boxes, compared to a Ultimax in the same sealed box.

Ported is a whole different ballgame.


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post #42 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 11:47 AM
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Ok, about those CS1214's. I've got 8 myself in boxes stacked on the floor and I'm planning on building a couple of boxes that will probably go nearfield.


You guys mentioned "mid bass". What signal are you feeding these things? I figured it would be the same sub signal your other subs get; which is whatever the AVR feeds you from the LFE and XO. How can you get mid bass from that if you're crossed over at 80Hz?
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post #43 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 11:54 AM
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Well then, 8 18s would be even better than 8 12s. See how quickly it escalates?


It's all about budget and goals. The problem is newbies come into DIY asking for the lowest and/or loudest, but expect a single 10" in a small box to do it for them.
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post #44 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 12:00 PM
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Yeah, my favorite is, I want reference level bass from a 10 inch sub in 1 cubic foot. I had a 12x12 and 12x18. The 12s sound really good and better than my prior 8x18 setup. However, the next 8x18 system was much better. The driver matters know matter what size. Now I have a 2x19 SLLT and soon to be 4x19 SLLT.

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post #45 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Ok, about those CS1214's. I've got 8 myself in boxes stacked on the floor and I'm planning on building a couple of boxes that will probably go nearfield.


You guys mentioned "mid bass". What signal are you feeding these things? I figured it would be the same sub signal your other subs get; which is whatever the AVR feeds you from the LFE and XO. How can you get mid bass from that if you're crossed over at 80Hz?

I moved my AVR crossover all over the place, from 40 to 120 Hz. I settled on 100 Hz and got a lot more mid-bass thump with music. It really depends on your room and the capability of your other speakers (my son's system has much more mid-bass than most, but his left and right are JTR Triple 12s).

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post #46 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
I moved my AVR crossover all over the place, from 40 to 120 Hz. I settled on 100 Hz and got a lot more mid-bass thump with music. It really depends on your room and the capability of your other speakers (my son's system has much more mid-bass than most, but his left and right are JTR Triple 12s).
I am low passing my 18" MBM at 100hz as well and get good chest kick, though the bass is starting to localize at that hertz level. Dropping even ten cycles to 90hz lessens the localization, as well as the dynamic thump. It's all a compromise.
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post #47 of 76 Old 06-28-2018, 04:56 PM
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I am low passing my 18" MBM at 100hz as well and get good chest kick, though the bass is starting to localize at that hertz level. Dropping even ten cycles to 90hz lessens the localization, as well as the dynamic thump. It's all a compromise.

Got it, thanks guys. I was wondering if I was missing some other trick to getting subs into the mid-bass region.


That all makes sense; get the AVR's crossover up into the mid-bass (as far as you can anyway). And I can see where it would be a balancing act with localization and I'd guess, maybe even male voices ending up being reproduced in the subs.



I thought about splitting the LR mains coming out of the AVR with a Y-cable; one end to my external amp (for the mains) and another to a miniDSP I'd put in line to the nearfield subs. I could EQ the miniDSP to just reproduce the midbass. Then I realized what a nightmare it would be to align that nearfield box with the mains since they'd be reproducing some of the same frequencies. Bad idea.
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post #48 of 76 Old 06-29-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I should mention that we are assuming those 4 12s are within the same enclosure. Otherwise my situation doesn’t hold true.

And again, it only works well with the JBLs, in sealed boxes, compared to a Ultimax in the same sealed box.

Ported is a whole different ballgame.


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As in they're in the 4 cubic ft flat pack from pe? Or just that they have the same internal volume?

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post #49 of 76 Old 07-01-2018, 01:39 AM
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I've just noticed a lot of comments along the lines of "why not just build an 18" DIY cab"; "15"? why so small?"; "Don't bother with that 10"or 12" sub, just throw it away"; "18 or bust!".
I think you are lumping everyone into the same category here. I have an extreme system in my house but I also have a small bedroom system that has a pair of JBL 308 MkII's along with a TC sounds sealed 12" sub in a 1.5 cubic foot box. Within its limitations of SPL it is every bit enjoyable as my big system. It hits peaks of 100db at 15hz and that is very nice. It has that room lock for subsonic notes with music and it is pleasing. All my big system does is play louder and a bit cleaner on top from using beryllium compression drivers. My bedroom system has dropped a few jaws.

A few extremists jump on threads to try to save new members from having the painful path to upgrade. I think 90% of DIY builders, build to upgrade and they were foretold that they would want to so guys tried to help out up front by steering them toward a more efficient path. Please understand that you are very much in the minority if you build small and enjoy it enough to not want to upgrade.

I have never told anyone that a smaller driver is a waste of time.
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post #50 of 76 Old 07-01-2018, 10:26 AM
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You have to admit though... small subwoofers are kitten-cute. hehe!

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Oh look a UM-15, how cute!


Oh look a LMS-18, how cute!


Oh look a MalX-21, how cute!


Mic Drop
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post #51 of 76 Old 07-01-2018, 06:31 PM
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Another thing about people recommending big drivers is usually because a person asks open ended questions with no clear goal other than MOAR BASS.

If a person can get away with smaller drivers it’s usually unclear, even with a room layout it’s just unclear how a driver would react before actually having one there. I’d recommend a bigger driver just to be safe and it’s usually not a bad idea as you can also save some money that way.

You could get away with smaller nearfield, this is something I want to do with ULF. I tried it with my MBM’s and I just didn’t like it, I most likely had them integrated poorly though.


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post #52 of 76 Old 07-01-2018, 06:47 PM
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Another thing about people recommending big drivers is usually because a person asks open ended questions with no clear goal other than MOAR BASS.

If a person can get away with smaller drivers it’s usually unclear, even with a room layout it’s just unclear how a driver would react before actually having one there. I’d recommend a bigger driver just to be safe and it’s usually not a bad idea as you can also save some money that way.

You could get away with smaller nearfield, this is something I want to do with ULF. I tried it with my MBM’s and I just didn’t like it, I most likely had them integrated poorly though.


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Nearfield can be hard to integrate. Mbm I feel would be even harder than ULF. When I ran a single sub nearfield I had to set the avr xover to 80 and the sub xover almost as low as it would go to avoid localization. Now that I'm running one up front I have the nearfield one set to the same xover. Hopefully my 4 12s will be easy to set up too.
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post #53 of 76 Old 07-01-2018, 11:51 PM
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I tried my MBM's nearfield back in 2014 and it too was horrible placement option. Up front corner loaded seems like the best spot for my room.
My 24 is nearfield because that's the only spot left in the room that it can go, nearfield lacks room-gain below 30hz which is the only downside. The phase coherence of a nearfield sub is unbeatable, it generally looks something similar to a data-bass chart (i.e. smooth.)
Probably best to have them be ported or horned so that the box-tuning is lower than sealed and thus helps with the lack of room-gain issue.
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post #54 of 76 Old 07-03-2018, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazle View Post
I've just noticed a lot of comments along the lines of "why not just build an 18" DIY cab"; "15"? why so small?"; "Don't bother with that 10"or 12" sub, just throw it away"; "18 or bust!"


I don't think I've ever said anything like that. And yes I did build an 18", that was due to my personal desire for extreme bass. Not everybody has THAT desire, some people just want GOOD bass.


It's just really easy to throw those comments out but to me it feels like a put down on people who choose (for whatever reason) to use a smaller driver. That's not encouraging or helpful. Maybe I could have worded it better, but I think we can all be more careful about those kinds of comments.
Now neither myself, the wife nor the neighbours have a need for extreme bass BUT I still have an 18" (a JBL I traded up to). Why? Simple physics. Low bass requires lots of air movement. The easiest way to get that is with a lots of cone area. The simplest way to get that is with a big driver, hence 18". Notice I said 'easiest' not best. I don't have it loud, although the above non-enthusiast philistines would disagree, but boy, the sound is so smooth. I have listened to many subs and of all configurations (albeit usually in places other than my HT) and while many produce big sound, many are also peaky/lumpy/boomy/etc. My horn-loaded 15" is smooth but designed with a peak at 45Hz (for that wack in the gut feel) and I used to have it on all the time. It gets tiring after a while, so now I connect it only for the big action superhero movies. For the most part it stays off. I am happy with the JBL big box, it has its spot on the floor and doubles as a perfect-height table.
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post #55 of 76 Old 07-03-2018, 08:03 PM
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Too much emphasis is being placed on the THING, and not enough on the Circumstances.

Circumstances, Room Size, Preferences, Priorities, and precisely what you are trying to accomplish mean more than how big the THING is.

You want a balanced system that fits in the room, and does the job you need done. MORE BASS TO THE EXTREME is not always the job that needs to be done. Certainly for Movies, you want some serious bass impact, but it still needs to be reasonably blended with the sound track. If booming one note bass stand out as distinct, then you probably have the wrong Subwoofer.

For Music, you are probably more likely to strive for a seamless transparent blend. You are not necessarily looking to blow the windows out, but to seamlessly blend an additional octave of low bass. That's a very different task than blow the windows out movies sound tracks.

So, the question to ask is -

- How big is the Room?

If the Room is 20ft x 30ft, that's very different than if the room is 10ft by 15ft.

- What is it you want to do?

Know what your needs and priorities are and serve them. MORE BASS is not always the right question or answer. Built the system that fit your SPECIFIC needs and fits your SPECIFIC space.

- How much do you want to spend?


Got $2000, you can get a pretty fantastic Sub, $3000 even better, probably with full Front/Sub Bass Management built in. If you've got $300 to $500 to spend, then your goals need to be a bit more realistic. More isn't always better, sometime less but truly better is better than more but truly worse.

In my opinion, it is not about the THING, it is about the Person, the Room, the Requirements, the Preferences, the Goals, and the Budget.

Don't serve the thing, rather serve your specific requirements.

In my opinion....

Steve/bluewizard
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Last edited by bluewizard; 07-03-2018 at 08:06 PM.
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post #56 of 76 Old 07-04-2018, 07:21 AM
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Using reciprocity and a small subwoofer to improve bass performance

I have a fairly large (18' X 32' X 12'H) media room, yet I was unhappy with the bass performance in the room even using 4 large subs. As a professional acoustical consultant with over 40 years of consulting on room design and design of large-scale venue sound systems, I luckily had the tools and technical chops to look into the reason. By using reciprocity (Google it if you are not familiar with the term) and a real-time analyzer, I quickly determined that any feasible locations for the large subs resulted in a null at the main listening position in a significant portion of the bass spectrum in the midbass, around 50-70 Hz. Although moving the subs around could change the frequency of the nulls, and I could place them to get satisfactory response if I located them at aesthetically and functionally infeasible places in the room, I was unable to find any set of feasible locations that avoided the null at some frequency at the listening position. However, I found that if I located one of the subs so the listener was very near it, the response smoothed out nicely. The sub was way too large to leave it there, but the finding pointed the way to an easy solution: supplement the main woofers with a small woofer that had lots of output capability over the frequency range of the null, along with filters to complement the operating range needed by each of the woofers. Even a single location for a main large sub along with the small woofer near the listener yielded very satisfactory response.

One of the nice things about using reciprocity to determine woofer locations is that it is a very quick technique. A large woofer playing pink noise is placed at the ultimate listener position and candidate final woofer locations can be determined by a trained listener surveying likely locations for the subs by ear, or measuring bass response with a real-time analyzer, or some combination of both.

Last edited by Tucker2; 07-04-2018 at 09:24 AM.
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post #57 of 76 Old 07-04-2018, 07:33 AM
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I don't know. I have 2-12", 500w each in my living room with vaulted ceiling, open into kitchen and have had zero issues. In fact, I've been outside on my driveway talking to friends and had my friends comment that they can hear the thunder in the distance but don't see any lightening [my kid was watching the original 'Ironman' flick]. To me, that was the ultimate compliment.

Not that there is anything wrong with 18", it is just unnecessary overkill in my situation and I doubt the bass would be any more clean than it is right now.

Main: Mitsubishi 73736|OTA|fireTV|Sony BDP-S1100|Denon AVR4311CI|MartinLogan Preface|Phantom|MartinLogan Encore TF|2 - DIY 12" Subs|Behringer KM750|2 Bass Shaker|APC H15 Power Conditioner|Harmony Hub|Sennheiser RS 160|SMSL B1 BT Rx|Linksys SE2500
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post #58 of 76 Old 07-04-2018, 11:52 AM
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Not sure I know what options one has for driver size, but kickpoint of the shaft sure matters. A few years ago I took a repair opportunity to try a low kickpoint. Worked out well for a while, but it seems my swing speed has diminished with age. Having a hard time getting it out there beyond 225, I switched back. During the last few rounds I’ve gotten a couple out to the 280 yard area.
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post #59 of 76 Old 07-04-2018, 11:56 AM
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^

once again affirming the wisdom of the ages: It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

DIY FAN Denon X4400 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS V2, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
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post #60 of 76 Old 07-04-2018, 01:11 PM
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Hahahaha
You guys on here are insane 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Good one @Martin Donnelly and @asarose247
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