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post #31 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
This. I wrote up a semi-long post about recommending a kit as the first response to the OP's new thread. I was going to recommend a kit because getting the crossover correct is the hard part. But also typed up that you don't learn if you don't try something and I don't know where your head is at on that.


Now I do. I think anyone can build a decent speaker. It takes a pro to build a great one. The kits are great speakers. But you're not going to learn anything by buying a kit if that's what you're after. I think it's totally fair for you to come in and ask for driver recommendations. You already know that you've got a few more cans of worms ahead of you but it sounds like you're willing to open them and get it figured out.


Cary

Agreed! it wont be perfect or even close lol but it will be ours. I have REW/Bassbox pro UMIK-1/WinISD ill be using- Im going to read as much as i can on Xover building- I will hand it to you that one will be a Olympic swimming pool of worms- But im willing to pull my hair out and learn.
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post #32 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyCramers View Post
80HZ xover sounds like absolute garbage.
What are you basing this on?
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post #33 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyCramers View Post
Yeah im a tough cookie to deal with- Very stubborn in i dont want a kit lol. I think my wife would kill me if i did that, I understand the Xover is going to be huge- im prepared to deal with that. Im taking the provided information and researching- im pouring over the builds other have done and more drivers. Trying to balance price VS performance

Well, I personally feel that DIYSG offers great price/performance, especially with their kits. I've added up costs of gathering components myself and can't beat their price (and I can't get many of the components they use in their kits, as they are custom). But I get what you're after and wish you the best of luck with it. I know I couldn't design a crossover to save my life...
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post #34 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 02:25 PM
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Out of curiosity why are you so against a kit ? Why on earth would your wife care if you bought a kit ? I mean if the speaker comes in a kit or it is a totally custom build it is still going to look like the same speaker.

If you want to start learning to design speakers than more power to you, pick cheap drivers and experiment and learn. If you just want to build speakers once for a theater than you just cant do better than established designs. Most (if not all) of the DIYsound stuff is designed by guys who have been doing this for years and it still took them alot of time and experimenting with combinations to get the designs to where they are now.
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post #35 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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@bochoss - I dont like 80HZ over its that simple. Sounds like garbage to my wife and I. Lifeless sound, i try it and i have to kill it almost immediately- The last time i tried it was two days ago i did 8 sweeps with audyssey and it sounded fake and thin. In a perfect world where i had more money id have ALL my speakers play and crossed at 40hz(about) and powered by external amps and have my subs handle the LFE and where i cross my speakers at.

@HFGuy because i don't want a kit, i don't want to slap together someone else's work- and she wants me to do what i want to do and that's build my own. She wants me to be happy. Building a kit wont make me happy- designing with my own, improving it along the way will make me happier. * Damn wife wanting me to be happy where does she get off haha* joke
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post #36 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyCramers View Post
@bochoss - I dont like 80HZ over its that simple. Sounds like garbage to my wife and I. Lifeless sound, i try it and i have to kill it almost immediately- The last time i tried it was two days ago i did 8 sweeps with audyssey and it sounded fake and thin. In a perfect world where i had more money id have ALL my speakers play and crossed at 40hz(about) and powered by external amps and have my subs handle the LFE and where i cross my speakers at.

@HFGuy because i don't want a kit, i don't want to slap together someone else's work- and she wants me to do what i want to do and that's build my own. She wants me to be happy. Building a kit wont make me happy- designing with my own, improving it along the way will make me happier. * Damn wife wanting me to be happy where does she get off haha* joke
Good lord just leave this forum and go figure out how to build a speaker then. Since you want to do everything yourself just go figure everything out and quit giving such stuck-up bullsh-- responses to everyone.
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post #37 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyCramers View Post
I dont like 80HZ over its that simple. Sounds like garbage to my wife and I. Lifeless sound, i try it and i have to kill it almost immediately- The last time i tried it was two days ago i did 8 sweeps with audyssey and it sounded fake and thin. In a perfect world where i had more money id have ALL my speakers play and crossed at 40hz(about) and powered by external amps and have my subs handle the LFE and where i cross my speakers at.
The fact that it's crossing over at 80hz isn't the reason it sounds bad. It sounds like you have room mode issues with your subwoofer placement, or you are not getting good EQ through Audyssey. It would be worthwhile to figure out the root of your problem. What version of Audyssey are you using? How many subs and where are they located? Sounds like you already have REW which is a great tool for solving bass problems.
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post #38 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bochoss View Post
What are you basing this on?
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Originally Posted by bochoss View Post
The fact that it's crossing over at 80hz isn't the reason it sounds bad. It sounds like you have room mode issues with your subwoofer placement, or you are not getting good EQ through Audyssey. It would be worthwhile to figure out the root of your problem. What version of Audyssey are you using? How many subs and where are they located? Sounds like you already have REW which is a great tool for solving bass problems.
I have addressed placment issues- Its simpler than that. I dont like 80HZ cross. we all have our likes and dislikes. I prefer 40-60hz

Yeah i get what you mean that "its" crossing- i meant i am not one to do that-

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post #39 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:19 PM
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" She wants me to be happy"

a man who is not content with what he has will not be content with what he would have.

so while you're in the dungeon laboratory finessing out the finer details of "soon not to be a frankensprecher"

we don't know what the 2 of you are listening to in the interim, but one but can't help wonder about how she feels about "what" she doesn't have to be listening to . . .

and the 80 hz thing.

show us the room, how perfect is it so that all speakers @40 hz would offer no localization issues.

get REW and post the sweeps , 1 speaker at a time, for us . . we all want to learn . . .

especially how the bass can't be made anything but weak and thin. are you sure it isn't flabby or boomy or cavitating or . . .

help us help you

dig in your heels, stand your ground but how about some science and facts . .

props to @Samps

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post #40 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:22 PM
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The trouble is how you asked the questions in the original post gives off the vibe that you didn't want to do or learn how to do any of the real design work involved in building your own speakers.

Instead of asking for specific 8/10" driver recommendations I believe you should have asked something along the lines of "What kind of specs should I be looking for in an 8/10" driver if I wanted to use one in a 2-way speaker capable of hitting 40hz. in a box up to 2cuft". The answer might have been that if there aren't already recommendations for enclosure volumes and bass extension on the product page the T/S specs will tell you what kind of sensitivity and bass extension the driver will give you just input the data into a speaker box design program and you can model the bass response from the driver in any range of enclosure styles and sizes. Also that for 8-10" drivers crossing over to a regular dome tweeter you want to try and find ones that have a clean frequency response up well above 2000hz and that you will want a fairly stout dome tweeter capable of a low crossover point otherwise you will end up with midrange beaming from the large diameter of the bass driver.

You should be trying to learn why a driver is a good or bad choice rather then just asking for driver options that fit your criteria. Don't just dismiss all the existing speaker designs you can often look at ones with similar goals to what you want from your speakers in order to get ideas for drivers. Often the designers with more detailed build threads/pages will give explanations on why they choose the specific drivers they did.
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post #41 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:25 PM
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^ give a brother a "AMEN"

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post #42 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
" She wants me to be happy"

a man who is not content with what he has will not be content with what he would have.

so while you're in the dungeon laboratory finessing out the finer details of "soon not to be a frankensprecher"

we don't know what the 2 of you are listening to in the interim, but one but can't help wonder about how she feels about "what" she doesn't have to be listening to . . .

and the 80 hz thing.

show us the room, how perfect is it so that all speakers @40 hz would offer no localization issues.

get REW and post the sweeps , 1 speaker at a time, for us . . we all want to learn . . .

especially how the bass can't be made anything but weak and thin. are you sure it isn't flabby or boomy or cavitating or . . .

help us help you

dig in your heels, stand your ground but how about some science and facts . .

props to @Samps


Im sorry but what a bunch of nonsense lol- Why are so many butt hurt on the 40hz? i like my bass is that so hard to understand? Your Likes/dislikes are your own not mine stop trying to turn others into sheep. There is no "science"facts" to disprove someones taste. The 80HZ bs was a guideline not some golden rule backed by decades of scientific data - I dont have a perfect room - but in "A perfect world" <-- gotta understand that part, Where i have more money- i would have speakers and a room that this would be usable. I want to Localize the bass thats the point- i want my bass where it belongs.

"a man who is not content with what he has will not be content with what he would have" is a BS line to put on a facade of superiority(intellectually)- Honestly im having a hard time even typing with out laughing my butt off at the bs you spew- All this nonsense because i want a starting point for driver recommendations. You people have some serious issues you need to work out.
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post #43 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:33 PM
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But you're not going to learn anything by buying a kit if that's what you're after.

Cary
I'm not trying to start an argument but if he's never built a speaker before then a kit will teach him plenty. No you won't learn the reasons why certain crossover components effect the signal but you can learn to lay out the crossover components so they don't interfere with each other, solder, put enclosures together, and put finishes on the cabinets.
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post #44 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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The trouble is how you asked the questions in the original post gives off the vibe that you didn't want to do or learn how to do any of the real design work involved in building your own speakers.

Instead of asking for specific 8/10" driver recommendations I believe you should have asked something along the lines of "What kind of specs should I be looking for in an 8/10" driver if I wanted to use one in a 2-way speaker capable of hitting 40hz. in a box up to 2cuft". The answer might have been that if there aren't already recommendations for enclosure volumes and bass extension on the product page the T/S specs will tell you what kind of sensitivity and bass extension the driver will give you just input the data into a speaker box design program and you can model the bass response from the driver in any range of enclosure styles and sizes. Also that for 8-10" drivers crossing over to a regular dome tweeter you want to try and find ones that have a clean frequency response up well above 2000hz and that you will want a fairly stout dome tweeter capable of a low crossover point otherwise you will end up with midrange beaming from the large diameter of the bass driver.

You should be trying to learn why a driver is a good or bad choice rather then just asking for driver options that fit your criteria. Don't just dismiss all the existing speaker designs you can often look at ones with similar goals to what you want from your speakers in order to get ideas for drivers. Often the designers with more detailed build threads/pages will give explanations on why they choose the specific drivers they did.


Agree i should have worded it differently as apposed to adding why it is im looking- Didnt think it would cause a firestorm of people playing keyboard warrior over my desires to do my own thing
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post #45 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:37 PM
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I have addressed placment issues- Its simpler than that. I dont like 80HZ cross. we all have our likes and dislikes. I prefer 40-60hz

Yeah i get what you mean that "its" crossing- i meant i am not one to do that-
Again, you haven't found the root of your bass problem. You don't like how it sounds because you have a room mode or EQ issue with your subwoofer in the 40-80hz range. Your are trying to solve it by building larger speakers, even though that isn't the root of your problem. If properly set up, you would get good results at 40, 60, or 80hz crossover. You say you have tried to address this already, but it was not done properly.

I find it strange that you want to go to great lengths to learn how to design speaker crossovers, but won't address or at least understand the subwoofer issues you have.
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post #46 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:42 PM
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From the first post:

"We dont care if you think we should have a 80HZ xover and not to worry about 40hz- thats not going to happen 80HZ xover sounds like absolute garbage."

This is probably why this thread has the wrong tone. The idea isn't the issue, it's more the way it was written. I'm sure it was meant in a harmless way.

Maybe we can get this back on track.

An 8 or 10 should be easy to get to the levels you want. A dome tweeter might run out of gas for movies, but will probably be ok and easier to develop the xo, plus they're generally cheaper and don't require a waveguide.

Is there a preference for tweeter type?

A lot of choices to be made. And every choice will impact the others.
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post #47 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Again, you haven't found the root of your bass problem. You don't like how it sounds because you have a room mode or EQ issue with your subwoofer in the 40-80hz range. Your are trying to solve it by building larger speakers, even though that isn't the root of your problem. If properly set up, you would get good results at 40, 60, or 80hz crossover. You say you have tried to address this already, but it was not done properly.

I find it strange that you want to go to great lengths to learn how to design speaker crossovers, but won't address or at least understand the subwoofer issues you have.
Im not trying to "fix" anything with bigger speakers...Speakers i have cant do 40HZ thus i want to build some.

Your just assuming you know all the facts- I have spent hours placing speakers and subs- they are ideal for my room/situation. Im evein adding another Wonderful MTG's VBSS subs- i have subs covered. My speakers arent up to the task of performing where i need them

Im trying to wrap my brain around why my taste being 40hz corss is some how a bad thing and relates to bad eq/placement etc
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post #48 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Samps View Post
From the first post:

"We dont care if you think we should have a 80HZ xover and not to worry about 40hz- thats not going to happen 80HZ xover sounds like absolute garbage."

This is probably why this thread has the wrong tone. The idea isn't the issue, it's more the way it was written. I'm sure it was meant in a harmless way.

Maybe we can get this back on track.

An 8 or 10 should be easy to get to the levels you want. A dome tweeter might run out of gas for movies, but will probably be ok and easier to develop the xo, plus they're generally cheaper and don't require a waveguide.

Is there a preference for tweeter type?

A lot of choices to be made. And every choice will impact the others.

Agreed- I apologize for that- its one my major flaws. I'll edit it to sound less crazy lol

Thanks for the input- Im hunting down 8/10's - Thats good to know about domes- i was considering the Air Motion ones but they seem like you need to go big or get not much out of them lol We have no preference to tweeter type- we are open to what ever so long as we are not dropping wads of cash

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post #49 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:58 PM
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People spend their entire life learning.
Nobody is born with knowledge.
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post #50 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CrazyCramers View Post
Im not trying to "fix" anything with bigger speakers...Speakers i have cant do 40HZ thus i want to build some.

Your just assuming you know all the facts- I have spent hours placing speakers and subs- they are ideal for my room/situation. Im evein adding another Wonderful MTG's VBSS subs- i have subs covered. My speakers arent up to the task of performing where i need them

Im trying to wrap my brain around why my taste being 40hz corss is some how a bad thing and relates to bad eq/placement etc
Because there is no such thing as "taste" for a crossover frequency. What you care about is the response at your listening position, which you can measure easily with REW. If you are not getting the response you want to your taste, then something else is wrong (especially with the strong mid-bass from the VBSS). Whether your subwoofer driver is vibrating at 60 hz or your speaker driver is vibrating at 60 hz does NOT matter for sound quality (overall output, distortion, and headroom aside). Only their locations and EQ. Different versions of Audyssey handle subwoofer EQ differently, which is why I asked about that.

An additional VBSS will definitely help cure room modes if properly placed, and give you lots more mid-bass (if you don't cross too low!).

I am also curious why you say you like a 40hz crossover if your current speakers can't even go that low?
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post #51 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 04:14 PM
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I think the OP might have been burnt by the last kit he built (which likely wasn't DIYSG).

and so now he is kit-adverse.
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post #52 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Because there is no such thing as "taste" for a crossover frequency. What you care about is the response at your listening position, which you can measure easily with REW. If you are not getting the response you want to your taste, then something else is wrong (especially with the strong mid-bass from the VBSS). Whether your subwoofer driver is vibrating at 60 hz or your speaker driver is vibrating at 60 hz does NOT matter for sound quality (overall output, distortion, and headroom aside). Only their locations and EQ. Different versions of Audyssey handle subwoofer EQ differently, which is why I asked about that.

An additional VBSS will definitely help cure room modes if properly placed, and give you lots more mid-bass (if you don't cross too low!).

I am also curious why you say you like a 40hz crossover if your current speakers can't even go that low?
Granted my current speakers cant go that low very well- Thats why building ones that can. I prefer that cross setting, it sounds more real to us. Its not that my VBSS is not performing- it is very well. our room screams in horror with every movie. I dont like having say a heart-beat thats supposed to be at center or L/R go to the sub- it irritates me. Last night we were watching Edge of tomorrow, Opening LFE shakes room to shreds and then the action kicks in- all gun fire sounds thin and lifeless, explosions are devoid of their boom where it happens and you(we) hear their "sound" from the subs which in part is fine and should be but not "all" of it. Ive owned a few speakers that could handle into the 30s and it was great- But that was then- i like having as much of the sound where its located - I hope this helps a bit explain our stand point.

If it wasnt so pricy id just buy a sub for each speaker lol and run Line level
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post #53 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 04:36 PM
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I was met with similar flack and puzzlement when I created the thread on my LCR build.

Nobody could understand why I wanted them flat to 2Hz, and why I wanted sealed over 50hz ported, and why did I want Birch instead of DIYSG mdf, and why I wanted them 5.5ft tall instead of stands.
As a result that thread got like 0 likes, even though its flat from 40khz to 2hz at 100db/w/m and 4kW power handling. hehe!

The difference being that I never asked for advice from anyone, I found and selected DIYSG all by myself and just ran with it. This was before 1299 days or F15 days.

Come to think of it... Have I ever asked anyone for advice? (Interesting! )

Suggestions and opinions perhaps...
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post #54 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 04:36 PM
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A dome tweeter will normally have a smoother response and a more consisten dispersion. That make the xo easier since you may not need antything more than a high pass network on it. Plus the sensitivity is lower so you probably won't need an lpad to lower its level. But it will be limited in max spl. If you don't listen loud, and have a suitable room without hard reflections, a dome tweeter would be the least difficult to get a good result.

Picking the right dome tweeter will depend on how low you need it to go, which will be based on how high the woofer can go. The 8" woofer will makes things a little easier also since it can usually play higher. I'm not sure what the flavor of the month is for dome tweeters, but there are a few that most designers tend to use. Parts express tech forum is a good place to browse to see what others are using.

There are just so many variables if you want to do it right. It's possible to just pick some drivers based on published specs but real world results don't always match. Buying a few different woofers and tweeters and testing is a good start. Then return the ones you don't like. Or pick the popular tweeter and just order a few woofers. Otherwise you'll need to follow someone else's design and then you're back to essentially a kit.
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post #55 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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A dome tweeter will normally have a smoother response and a more consisten dispersion. That make the xo easier since you may not need antything more than a high pass network on it. Plus the sensitivity is lower so you probably won't need an lpad to lower its level. But it will be limited in max spl. If you don't listen loud, and have a suitable room without hard reflections, a dome tweeter would be the least difficult to get a good result.

Picking the right dome tweeter will depend on how low you need it to go, which will be based on how high the woofer can go. The 8" woofer will makes things a little easier also since it can usually play higher. I'm not sure what the flavor of the month is for dome tweeters, but there are a few that most designers tend to use. Parts express tech forum is a good place to browse to see what others are using.

There are just so many variables if you want to do it right. It's possible to just pick some drivers based on published specs but real world results don't always match. Buying a few different woofers and tweeters and testing is a good start. Then return the ones you don't like. Or pick the popular tweeter and just order a few woofers. Otherwise you'll need to follow someone else's design and then you're back to essentially a kit.

Yeah it is daunting pouring over all these drivers/tweeters. Our room sucks- wood floors and couple open areas and large window(covered). I will say for some reason i am attracted if you will to Eminence- i like their looks for some reason - iwas going to ask about these two as a combo before all the madness started. Eminence Alpha-8A 8" PA Driver & Eminence ASD1001B 1" HF Titanium Horn Driver. Again with my limited Knowledge im going off og the woofer "plays" high enough to easily pair with a tweeter- The Horn i liked because how low went but also dont mind that 500-1K was lower. The woofer is said to have usable FQ 58 Hz – 5.0 kHz, so wasnt sure about getting to that F3 40HZ with them lol These arent set in stone just ideas.

I will say im not a fan of "shrill" highs, i listed to V1 of the Volt-10 and it was a good sound and they had great bass they way he had them set up(corner loaded and crossed low) so im not against compression drivers. If i had the skills and experience id build a more sensitive version of these http://projectgallery.parts-express..../synergy-horn/ just not sure how i feel about tweet mid and woofers lol
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post #56 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I was met with similar flack and puzzlement when I created the thread on my LCR build.

Nobody could understand why I wanted them flat to 2Hz, and why I wanted sealed over 50hz ported, and why did I want Birch instead of DIYSG mdf, and why I wanted them 5.5ft tall instead of stands.
As a result that thread got like 0 likes, even though its flat from 40khz to 2hz at 100db/w/m and 4kW power handling. hehe!

The difference being that I never asked for advice from anyone, I found and selected DIYSG all by myself and just ran with it. This was before 1299 days or F15 days.

Come to think of it... Have I ever asked anyone for advice? (Interesting! )

Suggestions and opinions perhaps...
Well said! haha i appreciate you and @Samps helping so much through the BS- next "thread" will definitely be carefully worded
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post #57 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 05:26 PM
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This thread might be a good start:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...eff-bagby.html
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post #58 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Holy smokes! awesome im heading over there now and watching/reading all i can.
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post #59 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 05:55 PM
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I built some speakers once. I bought a 6.5" driver that was 4ohm, built a cabinet, literally drilled a hole in the front of 1/4" plywood hooked up pos and neg and went with it. I was 16, knew jack about coaxials, I literally ran a 6.5" woofer full range. The port was more of a leak, zero tuning frequency. They made sound yes, not good sound though.

I agree the diy you see today is not 100% diy. That's because to get sound that beats 1000$ speakers for 200$, someone else needs to get down and dirty. They preselect parts that work. So we buy them with maximum bang for buck in mind. If you wish to buy tons of parts and do testing feel free, but just because you are in the diy section does not mean we are all professional speaker builders. Sad but true.
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post #60 of 80 Old 06-28-2018, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I was met with similar flack and puzzlement when I created the thread on my LCR build.

Nobody could understand why I wanted them flat to 2Hz, and why I wanted sealed over 50hz ported, and why did I want Birch instead of DIYSG mdf, and why I wanted them 5.5ft tall instead of stands.
As a result that thread got like 0 likes, even though its flat from 40khz to 2hz at 100db/w/m and 4kW power handling. hehe!

The difference being that I never asked for advice from anyone, I found and selected DIYSG all by myself and just ran with it. This was before 1299 days or F15 days.

Come to think of it... Have I ever asked anyone for advice? (Interesting! )

Suggestions and opinions perhaps...
I am absolutely a big believer in full range speakers all around. Afaik thats how movie soundtracks are recorded. Running full range for LCR has been a revelaton to me. I havent got to your level of sealed glory but Im working on it. Maybe sealing up the titan left and right speakers and then two um18s under each for stereo subs and stands, crossing over at 80Hz.
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