Titan 615 LX / amp combo - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Titan 615 LX / amp combo

Hey All - hoping some Titan owners can weigh in... I was planning on going simple with my HT and just using an AVR with ~150wpc to run Titans as my front stage and Volts as my surrounds. That seems doable given that Titans have a 99db sensitivity, but in reading various posts, I've seen it suggested that something like an XPA-3 with 275-ish wpc would be better suited for LCR duty.


I like to listen at fairly loud and I understand that AVR's typically have current limiting so I wouldn't be getting full power to the Titans, but is it bad enough to warrant a larger amp?
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post #2 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 07:16 AM
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What various posts?
This is the DIY section, so I find that extremely hard to believe you're finding VARIOUS posts suggesting people buy a $1200 amp that is rarely talked about on this subsection. People usually buy pro amps here, because it's way better bang for your buck.

It's a 99db sensitivity. You can use a basic calculator to get an idea of how loud they get. Or you can just trust us and use your AVR. Only real reason to use an amplifier is because you like to (I do... I would NEVER use my AVR. I like to have full power on tap).

99db sensitivity would mean that with 1 watt going through your system it's already very loud. We have youtubes of this posted before. Generally, the best use for the amplifier is playing at 100+ feet.

Personally, my mind just thinks that speakers sometimes need bursts of power that an AVR can never deliver reliably.

I prefer to use a crown XLS.

Personally, again PERSONALLY, I'd never use an emotiva amplifier to power my speakers. But again, this is also because any design I like could use way more power than that.

Given that it can take 2000 Watts burst according to the spec page I'd get an LG Clone amplifier. The FP10Q has 1350 RMS, and I think generally the burst is double the RMS rating, so I imagine the Titan's can do around 1000RMS.
So I'd get the FP10Q minimum, I'd probably just use an FP20K though and call it a day. I hate thinking my speakers could be hungry.

That's me personally.
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post #3 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 07:17 AM
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Just use your AVR first, and if you feel you want to experience more, then get the amplifier.
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post #4 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 07:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
Hey All - hoping some Titan owners can weigh in... I was planning on going simple with my HT and just using an AVR with ~150wpc to run Titans as my front stage and Volts as my surrounds. That seems doable given that Titans have a 99db sensitivity, but in reading various posts, I've seen it suggested that something like an XPA-3 with 275-ish wpc would be better suited for LCR duty.


I like to listen at fairly loud and I understand that AVR's typically have current limiting so I wouldn't be getting full power to the Titans, but is it bad enough to warrant a larger amp?

This depends mainly on how loud you like to listen and how far away your seating is.

With such highly sensitive speakers, unless your room is the size of a small warehouse, you’ll be fine with a decent AVR for movies when crossing over to a sub around 80Hz. Just 20-30 watts will get most people to reference levels and beyond (which is very loud) with speaker efficiency in mid 90’s and above.

A little extra headroom for the amp is nice to reduce distortion and avoid clipping, but I’m guessing you don’t sit 25-30’ from the speakers; if that were the case, you could easily push a few hundred watts into them for brief instances with +20dB dynamic swings and 85dB average program volume.

A couple calculators for you.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/

Crown’s website assumes an outdoor/free space, so in room performance will require even less power.
https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators

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post #5 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 07:43 AM
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We'd need to know what seating distance you're at and what levels you want to hit, but if you're going to be crossing over to subs at 60 or 80hz, I'd be surprised if you weren't happy just driving them off of an AVR. Now, if you're looking to run them full range and want to see those woofers really moving, that's where you'll need to look at some external amplification.

I'm with tential on this one: go ahead and build them out and try them. You can always beef up your amplification later if you aren't happy with your output or if you're clipping more than you'd like off of your AVR.
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post #6 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post
What various posts?
This is the DIY section, so I find that extremely hard to believe you're finding VARIOUS posts suggesting people buy a $1200 amp that is rarely talked about on this subsection. People usually buy pro amps here, because it's way better bang for your buck.
I know there were at least more than one post on the XPA-3, XPA-7 or A-500 in the Titan 615lx thread. I at least posted about the XPA-3, which is what I'm using to power my Titans. So, I don't think the OP is exaggerating when he's talking about various posts (i.e., not threads) discussing additional power in lieu of only using your AVR.

To OP, mtg90 (the speaker designer) indicated that the Titans may benefit from having additional power on tap. You wouldn't go wrong adding additional juice to your AVR. I initially ran my Titans just off my AVR, but I had the XPA-3 in storage. Once I got it out, I've been glad with the performance of the Titans on additional power.
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post #7 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 09:29 AM
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I have mine running with the XPA-5 and am very happy with it... That being said, if I didn't already have the XPA I would likely go buy an INuke or the latest gen of that amp as they have more bang for the buck and DSP.
Currently, the XPA is kicking ass so I have no need to replace it.
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post #8 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post
What various posts?
This is the DIY section, so I find that extremely hard to believe you're finding VARIOUS posts suggesting people buy a $1200 amp that is rarely talked about on this subsection. People usually buy pro amps here, because it's way better bang for your buck.

It's a 99db sensitivity. You can use a basic calculator to get an idea of how loud they get. Or you can just trust us and use your AVR. Only real reason to use an amplifier is because you like to (I do... I would NEVER use my AVR. I like to have full power on tap).

99db sensitivity would mean that with 1 watt going through your system it's already very loud. We have youtubes of this posted before. Generally, the best use for the amplifier is playing at 100+ feet.

Personally, my mind just thinks that speakers sometimes need bursts of power that an AVR can never deliver reliably.

I prefer to use a crown XLS.

Personally, again PERSONALLY, I'd never use an emotiva amplifier to power my speakers. But again, this is also because any design I like could use way more power than that.

Given that it can take 2000 Watts burst according to the spec page I'd get an LG Clone amplifier. The FP10Q has 1350 RMS, and I think generally the burst is double the RMS rating, so I imagine the Titan's can do around 1000RMS.
So I'd get the FP10Q minimum, I'd probably just use an FP20K though and call it a day. I hate thinking my speakers could be hungry.

That's me personally.

I don't remember if they were in this section or not, but I posted here because my question relates to the Titans...

Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post
Just use your AVR first, and if you feel you want to experience more, then get the amplifier.
This was my initial thought as well. If I bought an AVR and wound up needing an external amp later, then it would probably bug me that I had not just gone with a pre/pro & external right from the start... hence my question.
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post #9 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sekosche View Post
This depends mainly on how loud you like to listen and how far away your seating is.

With such highly sensitive speakers, unless your room is the size of a small warehouse, you’ll be fine with a decent AVR for movies when crossing over to a sub around 80Hz. Just 20-30 watts will get most people to reference levels and beyond (which is very loud) with speaker efficiency in mid 90’s and above.

A little extra headroom for the amp is nice to reduce distortion and avoid clipping, but I’m guessing you don’t sit 25-30’ from the speakers; if that were the case, you could easily push a few hundred watts into them for brief instances with +20dB dynamic swings and 85dB average program volume.

A couple calculators for you.
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/

Crown’s website assumes an outdoor/free space, so in room performance will require even less power.
https://www.crownaudio.com/en/tools/calculators

Thanks for the calculator links, appreciate it! I'm all about headroom

Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
We'd need to know what seating distance you're at and what levels you want to hit, but if you're going to be crossing over to subs at 60 or 80hz, I'd be surprised if you weren't happy just driving them off of an AVR. Now, if you're looking to run them full range and want to see those woofers really moving, that's where you'll need to look at some external amplification.

I'm with tential on this one: go ahead and build them out and try them. You can always beef up your amplification later if you aren't happy with your output or if you're clipping more than you'd like off of your AVR.
Seating will be 12-ish to 18-ish feet...
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post #10 of 33 Old 07-10-2018, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by petethekiller View Post
I have mine running with the XPA-5 and am very happy with it... That being said, if I didn't already have the XPA I would likely go buy an INuke or the latest gen of that amp as they have more bang for the buck and DSP.
Currently, the XPA is kicking ass so I have no need to replace it.
So are you suggesting a mono / bridged INuke per channel?
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post #11 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 10:33 AM
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I'm running an XPA-3 for my Titans and I am quite happy with it. Lots of headroom and no issues with noise or distortion on upper frequencies. I have always been skeptical of pro amps with full range speakers in a critical listening environment. It's just my opinion, no need to debate it. I picked up my XPA-3 for about $600.

With very dynamic music, the combination of the 15" midbass driver with tons of power on tap makes for a really enjoyable combination. Fantastic midbass kick that I am confident would not be present with a less powerful amplifier.
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post #12 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
Thanks for the calculator links, appreciate it! I'm all about headroom



Seating will be 12-ish to 18-ish feet...
At your distance I think you will be fine with an avr. If you wanted to run the Titans full range you might want to look at getting an amp. Most all the DIYSG home theater speakers are designed to run just fine with an AVR. Just remember though you have to double the wattage to get a 3db increase in output
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post #13 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 11:47 AM
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My 615lx left right pair worked fine with a Denon 6200W avr, however once I started apply DSP boost on the lower end I switched to a Behringer A500 and now bridged EP4000s.
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post #14 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
I don't remember if they were in this section or not, but I posted here because my question relates to the Titans...



This was my initial thought as well. If I bought an AVR and wound up needing an external amp later, then it would probably bug me that I had not just gone with a pre/pro & external right from the start... hence my question.

A PrePro + External Amp isn't efficient. The Receiver + Amp is better. Hence why I gave the advice. If there was a good PrePro/External Amp combo that wasn't MORE expensive with less features than the receiver + amp then sure. But unless you're dropping an insane amount, that's not how the receiver/prepro game works. Receivers have similar/more features for less money. That's just how it works.

As I already explained, these speakers should be able to take a lot of power. So all of the amps listed in this thread still would not hit the maximum it could take, other than the LG Clone amps I already talked about. That would be where I'd put my effort if I was serious about driving crazy amounts of power.
Otherwise, the CrownXLS for its silence, top end model.

The amount of power the Emotiva amps provide over the receiver amps isn't that meaningful. If I want an amplifier, I want a serious amplifier.

Last edited by tential; 07-12-2018 at 11:55 AM.
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post #15 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post
A PrePro + External Amp isn't efficient. The Receiver + Amp is better. Hence why I gave the advice. If there was a good PrePro/External Amp combo that wasn't MORE expensive with less features than the receiver + amp then sure. But unless you're dropping an insane amount, that's not how the receiver/prepro game works. Receivers have similar/more features for less money. That's just how it works.
I am assuming you mean "cost efficient". I agree that in the entry level and middle end receivers with the run of the mill features found today, you aren't going to find a comparable pre/pro dollar for dollar, so adding an amplifier to a basic receiver is completely understandable and will save money over a pre/pro with similar features. But I would argue that not everyone in DIY is looking for the best bang for the lowest possible dollar (especially someone willing to buy Titans). Many DIY'ers are shooting for high end sound on a budget, willing to spend more than the lowest possible dollar, but unwilling to make the leap into the ridiculous prices truly high end gear commands.

I can give you two examples where your statements above are incorrect.
1) I originally got into a pre/pro because there wasn't a receiver with Dirac Live and I wanted better than Audyssey. So for what I was after, a pre/pro was the ONLY option. Now there is one out there, the NAD 758v3 with 110 watts per channel, and cheaper new than an XMC-1 new. BUT, you still don't have balanced outputs or an OSD, so feature for feature the XMC-1 is still better in pretty much every way when running external amplifiers, and the extra price is fully justified. There is no other viable comparison for the required feature set.
2) My XMC-1 doesn't have Atmos and the upgrade is still months away, so I needed an interim Atmos processor. My requirements are fully balanced signal path and 11.1 processing. Again, you can get some of that in a Denon x6300 for the same price, but it missed out on one of my requirements. The Marantz has better DAC's and the balanced signal path, making it a superior product feature for feature, with more features and the same price point on top of this.

Like I mentioned above, the person who buys a Titan isn't looking for the cheapest way to get good sound. A Fusion 8 or 10 sounds nearly identical to a Titan 615LX at the power output of a typical receiver. 105wpc just isn't going to give you your money's worth. If you are spending nearly 2 grand on 3 DIY speakers you still have to build (and you still need surround speakers), you probably aren't looking for the absolute cheapest option to power them. And if you are building speakers yourself, you are probably not the type to buy a $25k pre/pro either, but a $1200-1500 processor like the Marantz 7703 is a very compatible option and not terribly uncommon. Couple it with a $600 used XPA-3 amplifier and you are getting $10-15k sound for under $4k. THAT is budget high end IMHO, and the goal of DIY for me. YMMV

Quote:
So all of the amps listed in this thread still would not hit the maximum it could take, other than the LG Clone amps I already talked about. That would be where I'd put my effort if I was serious about driving crazy amounts of power.
I can't disagree that if your goal is max power, there are better choices than an Emotiva (or other similar class A/B or Class H amplifier), but I would debate two things here:
1) whether class D power is better (or even necessary) for 60hz-20khz in a small venue like a home theater.
2) how necessary (or realistic) achieving 2000 watts on a set of 99db sensitivity speakers really is.

Quote:
The amount of power the Emotiva amps provide over the receiver amps isn't that meaningful. If I want an amplifier, I want a serious amplifier.
I disagree with this statement for a number of reasons.
1) Power supply. The XPA-3 has a power supply that can drive all three channels at max power and still have the current capacity to drop the impedance down and push over 1000 watts. Very few receivers can drive more than 2 channels at max power, and that is usually the limit of the power supply with nothing left. This is apparent when listening to dynamic music at high volumes with both types of amplifier. The Emo can deliver where the integrated receiver will fall flat.
2) 3-4x more output. Apples to Apples with all channels driven, the The Emo XPA-3, is going to deliver 3-4x the total power over a receiver. This equates to about 8-10db louder. This is meaningfull, especially when you still have enough dig to reach the peaks.
3) I would bet money that very few people, if anyone at all, would ever drive the Titan much over 300 watts in reality, aside from once or twice when they are trying to prove that the speaker can handle the power. Music and even movies are so dynamic, and above 60hz you are going to be running maybe 10-100 watts 99.9% of the time. I am all about more power, but even I understand the point where overkill becomes a waste of money.

I am all for a lot of power, don't get me wrong. I have 4 of 6 18" subs in large ported enclosures in my room so far, with 2 inuke 6kdsp's pushing them, and still have 2 more to build with another inuke to push them. I can move the couch two levels up and I spent thousands on soundproofing the room. And yet my XPA-3 powering the Titans can more than keep up with the subs, even when running the subs at +20db over the mains. A receiver couldn't do anything like that Emo amp can do, any day of the week. But hey, if you think you need 2kw per channel on speakers like this, go for it. It isn't my ears that will be bleeding long before I hit max output.
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post #16 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tential View Post

Otherwise, the CrownXLS for its silence, top end model.

I’ve hooked my XLS 2502 up to various high sensitivity speakers (JTR’s and DIYSG stuff) and I always notice hiss from it. It’s less hiss compared to an inuke or Peavey IPR-2 but still bugs me too much to run pro amps on high sensitivity speakers.
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post #17 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 06:33 PM
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https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a
$1000 for Dirac Live(Not to mention the ability to string them together to get even more channels of Dirac support beyond 7. Does Emotiva give you this I'm not sure?)
Use any receiver that supports preamps for under $700.
So to me, that's a far cheaper way of getting Dirac than using an Emotiva XMC-1.

I use the Receiver like a PreAmp. I don't use any amplification from it. I just think it's cheaper to piece it all out than to buy an all in one solution with a larger mark up.

Yes, I'm overkill, it's the DIY section, of course I'd want to use LG Clone amps. For the price of the Emotiva, I can get far more amplification than the Emotiva, for cheaper, and pay someone to mod it for me, and still come out cheaper. Just don't have any interest in less amplification per dollar than I can get.
FP10Q half the price of the Emotiva with far more amplification power.
The Emotiva is just overkill price wise. You can use CrownXLS1500s and come out far cheaper. There just isn't a way really I can find an Emotiva product to be remotely cost effective while also having a large amount of power on tap for full potential.

I'm really just not impressed with Emotiva's product offering at all after being on here. If I can get more for less, I'm going to do it... just a no brainer for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonDeyholos View Post
I’ve hooked my XLS 2502 up to various high sensitivity speakers (JTR’s and DIYSG stuff) and I always notice hiss from it. It’s less hiss compared to an inuke or Peavey IPR-2 but still bugs me too much to run pro amps on high sensitivity speakers.
Ask BassThatHz how he gets around it?
Others run pro amps to.
So not sure what it is, I know I have 0 hiss now ever since I moved.

Edit: You could also run Crown XLS as bridged by themselves one per speaker. I mean I don't know how large your rack is though or if you have one, or how your room is set up.

Last edited by tential; 07-12-2018 at 06:38 PM.
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post #18 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 06:43 PM
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Also, it's not that I want to "Cheap out" and that's why I don't like the preamp.
Just from so far, considering you mention Dirac Live, I want to get into Dirac Live myself, and it seems the best way to do so is to buy a receiver with preouts (You can get 11.2 receiver with 13.2 preout support I believe) for around ~$700.
Then daisy chain 2 MINIDSP Dirac Live boxes for full 15 channel suppoprt. Since the Diract boxes support 8 channels, probably would add in another subwoofer, or maybe some other center back channel.

That's $2700. I just couldn't justify the Emotiva XMC-1 when I could get so much for $2700, and be able to upgrade the receiver while keeping the Dirac portion, and you still have to pay to upgrade to full Dirac with the Emotiva.
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post #19 of 33 Old 07-12-2018, 08:33 PM
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If you want low distortion class D amps, consider building hypex nc400 kit amps. Nyt measured one of his ncores in his amp thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post47941977

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post #20 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Good conversation, thanks for the replies! A little bit more about my wants;
Atmos... looking at a 7.2.4 setup, and was pretty keen on either the Anthem MRX1120 (AVR) or the AVM60 (Pre/Pro).
Wanting to do 3 Titans for LCR and Volt8/10 for the surround/atmos. Subs will likely be 2 B&C21's in eng399's enclosures.


People keep talking INukes and Crowns... but in my mind, you'd have to buy three for the LCR and bridge them (or two run 2 channel and a second bridged to the center) unless I'm over thinking things?


What about the Monoprice Monolith? It gets good reviews other than heat and would be somewhere between 200 - 300wpc on the Titans
https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2
This would be used as one amp in conjunction with a Pre/Pro
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post #21 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mumbles60 View Post
Good conversation, thanks for the replies! A little bit more about my wants;
Atmos... looking at a 7.2.4 setup, and was pretty keen on either the Anthem MRX1120 (AVR) or the AVM60 (Pre/Pro).
Wanting to do 3 Titans for LCR and Volt8/10 for the surround/atmos. Subs will likely be 2 B&C21's in eng399's enclosures.


People keep talking INukes and Crowns... but in my mind, you'd have to buy three for the LCR and bridge them (or two run 2 channel and a second bridged to the center) unless I'm over thinking things?


What about the Monoprice Monolith? It gets good reviews other than heat and would be somewhere between 200 - 300wpc on the Titans
https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2
This would be used as one amp in conjunction with a Pre/Pro
Overthinking things....
2 Crown XLS
You can run 2 channel and 1 channel on the other, leaving 1 channel free for later.

Even still 3 Crown XLS bridged powering 1 titan each is STILL cheaper than the monoprice solution you proposed, with a proven quiet amp, with the power to completely use the maximum power of the Titan.

You could buy 4 Crown XLS for $1200 giving you 8 channels of power.

Or, you could buy that monoprice amp, and get less power, and spend more.

Up to you what you like to do.

Or you could buy 2 NU46000 and get 8 channels of power for $800.

When I first came here, I needed an amplifier, and I looked at Emotiva/etc. It was this subforum that explained to me the value of ProAmps. So ya... that's still what I advocate for as that's what was explained to me to work well, and I can't argue with numbers.

Pro AMPs are just more cost effective, so unless you just really want your amp in a pretty home theater style enclosure, and are willing to pay way more, and get way less in power, you're just better off with a pro amp.

The FP10Q, 2 of those would be less than the monooprice amp, and have way more power. I mean, just anyway you cut it, hometheater branded amps are going to be more expensive than a pro amp.

Edit: To top it all off, the ProAmp Class D solution would be a lighter solution than the 93 lb monoprice solution putting out minimum amounts of power. I wouldn't even waste my time putting that in my rack, it would be a complete waste of the weight capacity I have available. I'd take a far more efficient solution for producing power. If I'm going to take up 4U of rack space, I want to actually get something from it.

Last edited by tential; 07-13-2018 at 07:32 AM.
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post #22 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 07:30 AM
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https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a
$1000 for Dirac Live(Not to mention the ability to string them together to get even more channels of Dirac support beyond 7. Does Emotiva give you this I'm not sure?)
For 7.1.4, you would need 2 of these, plus a receiver, so now you are at the cost of a used XMC-1 with Atmos upgrade and you don't have the added latency to deal with or the unbalanced signal path that has now gone through an additional d/a and a/d conversion that further degraded your signal and added noise.

Even for 7.1 with one minidsp unit, you have introduced delay and noise into your signal path along with the potential for ground loops with the added device. If you don't care about all that and just want sound to come out of your speakers at very loud volumes for as little money as possible, then your solution works.

Again, it is all relative based on what your goals are.
Personally I can completely understand someone doing DIY speakers that cost 100-200 each and sticking to the most basic signal processing and not worrying about the signal chain so much.

But when someone is investing around $700+ per speaker for something that won't even sound different than the $200 option until you start putting a lot of power to it, AND something with a very high sensitivity tweeter that will pass along any noise from the signal chain with crystal clarity, I don't see where using the most budget option fits the equation very well.

Then again back in my car audio days I installed a lot of $20,000 systems in $5,000 cars, so nothing much surprises me.
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post #23 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 07:41 AM
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For 7.1.4, you would need 2 of these, plus a receiver, so now you are at the cost of a used XMC-1 with Atmos upgrade and you don't have the added latency to deal with or the unbalanced signal path that has now gone through an additional d/a and a/d conversion that further degraded your signal and added noise.

Even for 7.1 with one minidsp unit, you have introduced delay and noise into your signal path along with the potential for ground loops with the added device. If you don't care about all that and just want sound to come out of your speakers at very loud volumes for as little money as possible, then your solution works.

Again, it is all relative based on what your goals are.
Personally I can completely understand someone doing DIY speakers that cost 100-200 each and sticking to the most basic signal processing and not worrying about the signal chain so much.

But when someone is investing around $700+ per speaker for something that won't even sound different than the $200 option until you start putting a lot of power to it, AND something with a very high sensitivity tweeter that will pass along any noise from the signal chain with crystal clarity, I don't see where using the most budget option fits the equation very well.

Then again back in my car audio days I installed a lot of $20,000 systems in $5,000 cars, so nothing much surprises me.
I already said you would need 2 of them. I explained you would need to daisy chain them.
Why you bring up the cost of a used product is beyond me. You just said you don't want the most budget option....
Also, it's not the most budget option, it's the most efficient option.

The XMC-1 is $3k+ once you add in the new HDMI board. Trying to throw out the used number is ridiculous, because you could buy the miniDSP setup used+receiver used.

It's nothing to do with the most budget option. I have no problem worrying about the signal chain, or any part of the setup. The option I presented cost MORE than the XMC-1, so it's not about the most budget option, so stop framing it as me trying to just use the most budget option when I'm suggesting an option more expensive.

The XMC-1 only does 8 channels of processing, vs the option I presented doing 16 channels. It's just different strokes, but to suggest I put my option as a pure budget option when it's a more expensive robust option than the XMC-1 is a vast miscategorization of what I presented.
It's not about not wanting to spend money, it's about being efficient with every dollar spent, and I just don't see the Emotiva solution as efficient, or robust. Just mostly lackluster, with better options available.
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post #24 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 07:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Then again back in my car audio days I installed a lot of $20,000 systems in $5,000 cars, so nothing much surprises me.
Ahh, car audio... now yer talking! I'm on a few car audio forums and see lots of noobs (like myself at home audio) asking about equipment that is pure crap. They get responses steering them away from crap, and go ahead and buy crap anyway??? So, my questions are an attempt to NOT be THAT guy.
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post #25 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 07:58 AM
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Good conversation, thanks for the replies! A little bit more about my wants;
Atmos... looking at a 7.2.4 setup, and was pretty keen on either the Anthem MRX1120 (AVR) or the AVM60 (Pre/Pro).
Wanting to do 3 Titans for LCR and Volt8/10 for the surround/atmos. Subs will likely be 2 B&C21's in eng399's enclosures.


People keep talking INukes and Crowns... but in my mind, you'd have to buy three for the LCR and bridge them (or two run 2 channel and a second bridged to the center) unless I'm over thinking things?


What about the Monoprice Monolith? It gets good reviews other than heat and would be somewhere between 200 - 300wpc on the Titans
https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_...seq=1&format=2
This would be used as one amp in conjunction with a Pre/Pro
Again I have to disagree with many people here, I think using an extra amp over your AVR for your LCR is a waste of money, again unless you run them full range. If you crossover your mains at 80hz which most people do and extra amp isn't needed. You can get to reference lvl (95db with 105 peaks) on those titans with 24 watts. For comparison 95db is the same volume level as a lawnmower, more ot less. You have to double your watts to get 3 additional db from a speaker, so even it you want 98db thats still only 48 watts going to each speaker, well within the possibility for most AVR's. Unless your trying to go crazy loud, well above reference level you will be fine.
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https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a
$1000 for Dirac Live(Not to mention the ability to string them together to get even more channels of Dirac support beyond 7. Does Emotiva give you this I'm not sure?)
Use any receiver that supports preamps for under $700.
So to me, that's a far cheaper way of getting Dirac than using an Emotiva XMC-1.

I use the Receiver like a PreAmp. I don't use any amplification from it. I just think it's cheaper to piece it all out than to buy an all in one solution with a larger mark up.
I'm familiar with minidsp products and have read good things about Dirac, so this is kind of intriguing... although I'm not sure my old ears could tell the difference between ARC and Dirac, it would be nice to have the option.
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Again I have to disagree with many people here, I think using an extra amp over your AVR for your LCR is a waste of money, again unless you run them full range. If you crossover your mains at 80hz which most people do and extra amp isn't needed. You can get to reference lvl (95db with 105 peaks) on those titans with 24 watts. For comparison 95db is the same volume level as a lawnmower, more ot less. You have to double your watts to get 3 additional db from a speaker, so even it you want 98db thats still only 48 watts going to each speaker, well within the possibility for most AVR's. Unless your trying to go crazy loud, well above reference level you will be fine.
Hmmm, I'm not completely sold on this. I don't have the stats, but just the idea of most AVR's producing 48 wpc with all channels driven without pushing the AVR is not how I think of headroom and keeping distortion low. The OP did mention that he likes to listen loud.

To each their own, but I'm not going to run a drag car on slicks, 4 link, roll cage, and wheelie bars with a lawnmower engine If AVR power is the case, I'd suggest Fusion 8 to get the job done, and done well with better paired equipment.
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post #28 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 11:18 AM
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Hmmm, I'm not completely sold on this. I don't have the stats, but just the idea of most AVR's producing 48 wpc with all channels driven without pushing the AVR is not how I think of headroom and keeping distortion low. The OP did mention that he likes to listen loud.

To each their own, but I'm not going to run a drag car on slicks, 4 link, roll cage, and wheelie bars with a lawnmower engine If AVR power is the case, I'd suggest Fusion 8 to get the job done, and done well with better paired equipment.
Thats the thing even if you like to listen loud, unless by loud you mean way above reference level which is more than loud enough for 90% of people even AVS people, a good AVR will provide enough watts per channel to run those titans easy. I'm not saying the OP can't get an amp but it is probably an unneeded expense, most mid level avr's can manage 48w to 3 channels (your LCR) the amount of power going to surrounds is more often than not much less since they are not used nearly as often or as much as your LCR.
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post #29 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 11:27 AM
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Hopefully nobody is getting bent out of shape here, I am just presenting counter arguments to your blanket statements using real world examples. There are factors you aren't considering (or have deemed unimportant) that weigh in on your decisions, and that is perfectly reasonable, as long as you don't start thinking that what is unimportant to you is unimportant to everyone here. You may not find Emotiva a good deal, and there is nothing wrong with that. I happen to find it a good match for my Titans in a number of ways.

Please allow me to clarify.

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Originally Posted by tential View Post
Yes, I'm overkill, it's the DIY section...
Please don't assume I don't understand overkill. Here is my rack for my modest home theater (prior to swapping the XMC-1 for the Marantz 7703).


I've just learned from experience where the line between overkill for a purpose and overkill that is counterproductive lies.

Quote:
...of course I'd want to use LG Clone amps. For the price of the Emotiva, I can get far more amplification than the Emotiva, for cheaper, and pay someone to mod it for me, and still come out cheaper. Just don't have any interest in less amplification per dollar than I can get.
And I don't have any interest in driving a speaker with power delivered by a chinese knockoff amplifier that has virtually no warranty, no matter how much money I will save. I can already make my Titans louder than I can handle with the XPA-3, so more power adds zero benefit whatsoever and comes at the price of a higher signal to noise ratio, more distortion on the upper frequency range, and a higher risk of damaging my Titans. To me this is that line between good overkill and bad overkill.
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FP10Q half the price of the Emotiva with far more amplification power.
And no reasonable warranty, spotty quality control, etc. Buy at your own risk, if you get a bad one, you have to buy another and now it isn't half the price.

I want to be perfectly clear here, IF you are OK with running Class D on a 99db sensitivity speaker playing 20khz, then your choices are clearly less expensive for more power. Is it "better"? That becomes subjective really fast, but my opinion is no, it isn't better, just cheaper. I don't see any reason to put 2kw to a Titan in a home theater room, under any circumstance.

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Why you bring up the cost of a used product is beyond me.
Because I purchased much of my equipment used, with warranty in most cases and in perfect condition, so if you are going to talk DIY costs, we should be talking about real world examples.

Furthermore, the XPA-3 is a really good match to the Titans, and can be had used for $600-$700 used, making it an excellent match both in power and in price compared to the price and performance of the speakers.

Quote:
You just said you don't want the most budget option....
Also, it's not the most budget option, it's the most efficient option.
Sorry if I was unclear, I am looking for the BEST option FOR ME while not sacrificing quality and performance, whether it is cheaper or not.

I could have bought cheaper DIY speakers or used cheaper amps to drive them, but when I looked at all the data, it wasn't a good fit for me even with more raw power. On my subs, that is a different story, at 80 hz and lower, power is power as far as I am concerned, and the cheapest path to having max power for my subs with DSP to dial them in was the inuke 6kdsp's, so I bought three of them. I looked at options like the LG clones, Crown XLS, and even SpeakerPower, but none could touch the power to price ratio for 1000 watt subs, especially when adding in the need for balanced signal path and DSP control.

When you say it is the "most efficient option", that is a very obscure statement. What is more efficient? Power draw? Price? Yes, Class D amps are more efficient than Class A/B. Also Class D is more heat efficient, meaning you can package it in smaller enclosures and use less heat sink, which usually means lower shipping and lower manufacture costs. "Price efficiency" is better if you are only looking at price/power, which most people do when considering Class D amplifiers. But then start looking outside PA amps that are driven with Class D (like the ice modules) that perform more to spec with a good Class A/B or Class H amp and suddenly your price/power ratio is not as clearly superior.
Quote:
The XMC-1 is $3k+ once you add in the new HDMI board. Trying to throw out the used number is ridiculous, because you could buy the miniDSP setup used+receiver used.
It is $2500 with the new HDMI board, $3100 with the Atmos upgrade (when it comes out).

I have looked for used minidsp's and see one come up every 5 or 6 months and it is usually snapped up for 90% of the full retail. Emotiva products are plentiful and can carry the warranty across owners.

I paid $1500 for my XMC-1, it was less than a year old and had about 3 years of warranty left. The warranty was transferred to me and I am registered with Emotiva. There was absolutely no benefit to buying this processor for full price. I paid between $600 and $700 for my 3 Emotiva XPA amplifiers. I have 13 channels of power now for just under $2k. And I trust the quality more than some Chinese knockoff amplifier. And of course, based on experience, I prefer a Class A/B or similar to a Class D for highs, especially a high sensitivity speaker like the Titan that will show off even the smallest hiss or hum. It is not ridiculous to throw out those numbers because that is what I paid for the value that I got. It may not be what you would buy, and that is fine, but it is certainly relevant to this thread.

Quote:
It's nothing to do with the most budget option. I have no problem worrying about the signal chain, or any part of the setup. The option I presented cost MORE than the XMC-1, so it's not about the most budget option, so stop framing it as me trying to just use the most budget option when I'm suggesting an option more expensive.
I'm sorry, you keep using terms like "cheaper" and suggest your options are more cost effective. And you suggest buying clone amplifiers instead of the real thing that costs more but is probably more reliable, better quality, and of course, not pirated designs. All my responses about budget are based on this.

Quote:
The XMC-1 only does 8 channels of processing, vs the option I presented doing 16 channels. It's just different strokes, but to suggest I put my option as a pure budget option when it's a more expensive robust option than the XMC-1 is a vast miscategorization of what I presented.
It's not about not wanting to spend money, it's about being efficient with every dollar spent, and I just don't see the Emotiva solution as efficient, or robust. Just mostly lackluster, with better options available.
The XMC-1 has 13 channels, it just can't process Atmos yet until the upgrade comes out. And for price, the XMC-1 is $2500 new with the Atmos upgrade slated to cost $600, that's $3100. You are suggesting 2 $1000 processors and a 13 channel receiver which seem to be in the range of $900 brand new as an alternative, and then are saying you have a more expensive option that is more robust? How? You suggest something with no balanced signal path, more D/A and A/D conversions that add noise and jitter to the signal path, and use lower quality DAC's to begin with, and somehow your option is more robust?

As for flexibility, sure, as long as you don't care about those things I mentioned, then your options are more flexible than a pre/pro with everything built in.

There is no need to convince me that there is a better option for me, even if there is one, this is the way I went and I am happy with it. Likewise, I don't need to convince you that your path could be any better. But for the subject at hand, I do firmly believe that 2kw to a Titan is extreme overkill and dangerous to the longevity of your investment. I also believe that budget Class D amplifiers are not going to sound as good or have as good of signal to noise ratio as other options. When you combine my two opinions, an XPA-3, especially purchased used, is a really good option for the Titans.
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post #30 of 33 Old 07-13-2018, 11:48 AM
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Again I have to disagree with many people here, I think using an extra amp over your AVR for your LCR is a waste of money, again unless you run them full range. If you crossover your mains at 80hz which most people do and extra amp isn't needed. You can get to reference lvl (95db with 105 peaks) on those titans with 24 watts. For comparison 95db is the same volume level as a lawnmower, more ot less. You have to double your watts to get 3 additional db from a speaker, so even it you want 98db thats still only 48 watts going to each speaker, well within the possibility for most AVR's. Unless your trying to go crazy loud, well above reference level you will be fine.
Most receivers are 100-150 watts per channel, rated with 2 channels driven. Most midrange receivers today have 7 channels of power even if they can process 9 or 11. When driving all 7 channels, it is rare that a receiver can hit rated power, or the rated power is much lower with all channels driven.

And while you may cross your Titans at 80 hz (I cross mine at 60), 80-200 hz benefits from having more than 100 watts at typical reference volume. If you do an A/B comparison, you will find the dynamics in those lower notes to be much more pronounced and clear with more power.

Personally I find 200-300 watts to be excellent on the Titans, and while I have not A/B'd them specifically, I have A/B'd other DIYSG speakers that have similar efficiency and found that extra power to be both noticeable and worthwhile.

Plus let's be honest, you don't buy the Titans to max out at 105db unless you have a large auditorium for a theater. You're buying these so the gunshots and trains crashing in movies sound real. And for that you need more power than most any receiver can put out, IMHO.
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