Assistance with my Titan 615LX -- Lackluster performance - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Assistance with my Titan 615LX -- Lackluster performance

Just finished my Titan 615LX build finally, a year after purchasing them.. Just took me that long to get it done, life got in the way..

So there I was, had them all hooked up and turned them on for the first time hoping to be impressed.. Immediately I was like, wow these are lackluster... At first I thought it had to be my media room, which has no treatments.. I know eats bass (built some Marty's with UM18's last year), echos, etc.. The room is another work in progress, but it shouldn't cause this. So I decided to move them out to the living room to test. In the living room I have a set of Paradigm Studio 100v3's and some home-made subs that feature 2 x 10" Dayton PA speakers in 2cu ft ported boxes each (PA255-8) powered by an INuke. This setup sounds amazing in the living room, tons of bass out of the Paradigms already, but adding the el-cheapo 10" PA speakers will thump your skull.

I get the Titan's moved out there to test and again, lackluster. These things put out less bass than the 10" Dayton's do, almost on part with the Paradigms (which have 3 x 7" woofers each). The titans also take way more power to get to enjoyable levels for music/movies than my Paradigms do too. This whole time I've been reading and thinking these Titans are advertised as super sensitive I was expected it to be equal or better on dB per wattage.


Soo... Am I asking too much from the Titans, or I'm hoping there's really just something wrong? Perhaps with my x-over? I've double checked my PCB board and believe I have everything traced and wired correctly. I built them in a 4ft box as per the design, almost identical to the reference builds out there. I would just expect these things to make these Paradigms look like chumps overall, and especially my Dayton 10" PA speakers that I'm using as cheapo subs. Would just blow my mind that a high end 15" PA driver gets beat out by a 10" PA driver.

Hopefully someone has some ideas as I'm kinda upset and disappointed right now. Been reading and reading and finally have them done just to run into this..



Update: Please read through this thread if you're interested... Finally moved my paradigms into the media room and did a true A to B comparison.. TLDR... Room acoustics are my root issue.

Last edited by buckweet; 08-01-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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post #2 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 03:42 PM
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Did you purchase preassmbled crossovers, or build them yourself? If yourself, are you sure they are right?
How do the solder joints look?

Run them without any room correction software to test, make sure that is not doing weird things.

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post #3 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 03:43 PM
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What does it sound like if just one is playing?
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post #4 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 03:56 PM
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Do you have a calibrated mic? I'd sweep both and then if I needed to dig further I'd probably play pink noise and close mic each driver.

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post #5 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 04:24 PM
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How are the Titans supposed to put out as much bass as the subwoofers if they're playing different frequencies?

Are you running Audyssey...
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post #6 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by buckweet View Post
The titans also take way more power to get to enjoyable levels for music/movies than my Paradigms do too.
This tells me something is definitely wrong, likely with the crossover or wiring. The Titans should be about 10dB more sensitive then the Paradigms. Do you have pictures of the crossover and wiring?
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post #7 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 07:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tential View Post
How are the Titans supposed to put out as much bass as the subwoofers if they're playing different frequencies?

Are you running Audyssey...
No Audessey, have them running full range from the AVR.. Meaning they're set to LARGE in the setup so it's getting full frequencies.
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post #8 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nater1 View Post
Did you purchase preassmbled crossovers, or build them yourself? If yourself, are you sure they are right?
How do the solder joints look?

Run them without any room correction software to test, make sure that is not doing weird things.

I built the X-overs myself, soldering is good.. I found pictures of the pre-assembled unit and duplicated the copper PCB (etched and all) as the official unit was built like. All 3 speakers sound exactly the same, so if it's anything I built them wrong.. I tripled checked the x-over schematic to the way it's built and it lines up though.

One thing I did do was remove the X-over and ran the woofer directly and it sounded bass wise pretty much the same. So I don't think it's the X-over, at least for the woofer portion.. I also messed with the placement of the speakers in the room and that helped some. Perhaps the woofers are just still not fully broken in need time to freeup to get a better experience.


One question I did have is what is the low end roll-off for this setup? I'd assume since it's a 15" woofer, it should still dig decently low. I'd assume better than these Dayton 10" PA's at least for sure, but perhaps this Eminence driver just isn't built that way and I'm expecting something different than what it can really deliver. Even with the AVR running almost at full power (testing on an older Onkyo 705 unit) these woofers are barely moving.

Sorry I'm all over the place on my answers, just trying to answer current questions and throw thoughts out there.. Much appreciate the responses folks have given!
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post #9 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a REW test using a UMIK-1 from MiniDSP.. Output is a Macbook Pro connected via HDMI audio..

I guess this is more flat than I was expecting, so this doesn't seem all that bad? I'm no REW pro, I'd call myself a newb at this point for sure. Definitely want any pointers on how to use this, I've been watching Youtube!


Last night when I was tinkering with this, it looked much worse when the speakers were placed differently in the room (further away from the wall/corner). I do know this room is really bad, so perhaps this is just a big part of it. Along with newness of the woofers..
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post #10 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:23 PM
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Your attachment isn't showing up on my end.

Automation: Alexa- Harmony Hub- Wemo Dimmer Switch- Wemo Smart Plug BatCave: SY Triple Black
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post #11 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Another attempt!
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post #12 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:36 PM
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Is that all three titans?

Automation: Alexa- Harmony Hub- Wemo Dimmer Switch- Wemo Smart Plug BatCave: SY Triple Black
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Audio: 5.2.4 Marantz SR7011- (LCR) Stage Right 15" PA- (Surrounds) (4) BIC FH6-LCR- (Atmos) (4) Dayton Audio B652 6-1/2-Inch- (Subs)2 23ishcuft ported HS24s 14-15Hz tune- 4 PA460 in ported cabs 40Hz tune- FP20000Q- 2 Sanway FP10000Q- Crown XLS1500- . To be continued...
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post #13 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Is that all three titans?
just the Left and Right..
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post #14 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:46 PM
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Another attempt!
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just the Left and Right..
That looks suspiciously like room mode issues...especially that 1.5 octave node at 50 Hz. Have you taken just one Titan, given it a sub test tone, and moved it about the room measuring response from your MLP?
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post #15 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:46 PM
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Another attempt!

You would be best served to leave the default 105-45 db scale in the vertical axis.
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post #16 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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That looks suspiciously like room mode issues...especially that 1.5 octave node at 50 Hz. Have you taken just one Titan, given it a sub test tone, and moved it about the room measuring response from your MLP?
Haven't gotten that far yet to do the crawl. I'm not shocked to hear you say that about room modes.. Last year when I built the marty's, it was pretty much dead silent in the middle of the room. Walk to a corner and you go deaf.. It's pretty crazy to hear everything vibrating apart around you, yet you hear/feel nothing. The kitchen is about 40ft from here and the bass is powerful out there, again within the room pretty much nada.

So this room is really bad... It's just when I moved them to the living room where I get a good experience with the Paradigms, I was still disappointed.. Granted I couldn't put them in the exact spot where the paradigms were sitting due to the massive size of the titans (big blocks vs tall skinny). So perhaps that was my issue out there too, I hope!
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post #17 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 09:01 PM
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its gotta be in the signal chain or crossover...

Those things should rock you right out of the house all day and all night...
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post #18 of 66 Old 07-19-2018, 09:15 PM
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On AVR power the woofer won't move much even when cranked. Just because it's a 15" doesn't mean bass extension will be deeper, I would expect your Paradigm's to dig far deeper then the Titan's which the rolloff knee begins in the 50's.

Bass is highly room and placement dominated, it may just be that the place you have placed the speakers kills all the bass at the listening position.

If you have the 10" Dayton's on a separate amp running off the subwoofer channel of the AVR you can raise the gain until you feel satisfied with the bass output. This isn't the case with full range speakers without using EQ. But if you want hook the Titan woofer cabinets directly up to the amp you use for the 10" Dayton woofers on and try them that way to get a better sense of the capability of the woofers.
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post #19 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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On AVR power the woofer won't move much even when cranked. Just because it's a 15" doesn't mean bass extension will be deeper, I would expect your Paradigm's to dig far deeper then the Titan's which the rolloff knee begins in the 50's.

Bass is highly room and placement dominated, it may just be that the place you have placed the speakers kills all the bass at the listening position.

If you have the 10" Dayton's on a separate amp running off the subwoofer channel of the AVR you can raise the gain until you feel satisfied with the bass output. This isn't the case with full range speakers without using EQ. But if you want hook the Titan woofer cabinets directly up to the amp you use for the 10" Dayton woofers on and try them that way to get a better sense of the capability of the woofers.
Thanks.. I guess this is the statement that I was really looking for. I was just expecting it to be different based on what I've read, expecting it to be a bigger version of my Paradigms.. Some folks have said they didn't realize their subs weren't on for example. I just don't see anyone being pleased with the low end on these without a sub, or perhaps they've just EQ'ed its low end higher..


I appreciate everyone's input.. Time to learn more REW and get this room treated.
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post #20 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 06:31 AM
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Haven't gotten that far yet to do the crawl. I'm not shocked to hear you say that about room modes.. Last year when I built the marty's, it was pretty much dead silent in the middle of the room. Walk to a corner and you go deaf.. It's pretty crazy to hear everything vibrating apart around you, yet you hear/feel nothing. The kitchen is about 40ft from here and the bass is powerful out there, again within the room pretty much nada.

So this room is really bad... It's just when I moved them to the living room where I get a good experience with the Paradigms, I was still disappointed.. Granted I couldn't put them in the exact spot where the paradigms were sitting due to the massive size of the titans (big blocks vs tall skinny). So perhaps that was my issue out there too, I hope!
Above, Matt touches on the paradox of running large full-range speakers at full-range...as LCRs. Due to the physics of room modes, the speaker location where room modes would permit the speaker to provide strong LF at your listening position may well not coincide with where an LCR speaker has to be to work as an LCR.

You describe the classic demonstration of the first axial node in the middle of your room. When I attended the THX school back in 2002, it was still a week long intensive course, especially in acoustics...and taught by none other than Anthony Grimani! The classroom work was done in our hotel, but the rest at Skywalker. One amazing thing he did was set up demonstrations of axial modes. He placed a very big sub (on a furniture dolly) in a corner of a large room in the hotel. He sent it the frequency of the first axial mode in that room. Wherever you stood, it was deafening...until you stepped into the middle of the room...where it was silent. Take one big step forward or aft, and it was deafening again. He also demonstrated this with much higher frequencies with a teaching aid he made using a 1.5' or so length of PVC pipe in which he had a very small microphone. The mic was rigged such that he could slide it fore and aft along the length of the pipe. Knowing the length of the pipe, we could calculate the first axial mode...and confirm it by sliding the mic (kind of like a trombone) and find that there was no sound at the mid point at that frequency.

What are the shapes and dimensions of the two rooms, and where in each are you listening/measuring?

My point in suggesting you do the LF crawl is only to try to verify that there is nothing wrong with the Titan. The position you find (assuming you are not listening/measuring in the middle of the room) where the Titan has good acoustic LF response will almost certainly not be the optimal place to place an LCR. Does that mean that the Titan is a bad choice? No! It just means that you may have to use bass management to achieve smooth/linear response. I think the Titan is incredibly sexy looking, and I would kill to have those two waveguides which I'm sure sound fantastic. But...like your room, the L/R main locations in my room (just at the edge of the s 10' wide AT screen) have a huge, horrible node centered at 43Hz. 20 years ago I was trying to figure out why I had poor bass with subwoofers at those locations. After attending the THX school and acquiring a measurement capability, I confirmed the problem.

So, LF is not the only benefit to the Titans. If you can get them smooth down through 60Hz, cross them there using xt32, and call it a victory! Presuming your subwoofers are in acoustically friendly locations, xt32 will smooth them beautifully. You can then use your RTA utility and the MEQ Editor app to smooth out response a bit more and manipulate to the target curve of your choice. You can make modest tweaks for the LCRs. The LF will likely be smooth, so you will only need to adjust sub trim/gain to lift the LF region and splice region to emulate the Harman curve. I'm a huge proponent of the Harman/Synthesis curve. All that, plus Dynamic EQ, and you'll be in heaven.

My "compromise" to that terrible node was to use HTM-12s for L/R mains, and cross them at 60Hz using the process in the previous paragraph. The results are seamless. I never miss the HTM-12s not reaching below 60Hz because the splice with the subs is excellent resulting in linear response (+/- 3db or better) down to 22Hz or so. The SMPTE mixing room/dubbing stage spec is linear to 25Hz. Achieving that at a minimum is where I want to be.

Hang in there. Keep working it.
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post #21 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 06:43 AM
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I still think something is wrong. He said it takes much more volume to get the Titans to play loud than the Paradigms and that should not be the case. Whether the Titans extend deeper or not the range it can play should be much louder at the same master volume. If this is not the case then something could be wired wrong internally or something wrong with the driver?

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post #22 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 06:53 AM
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Can you post a front and back picture of your crossovers?

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post #23 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 07:50 AM
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I still think something is wrong. He said it takes much more volume to get the Titans to play loud than the Paradigms and that should not be the case.
Good point. There's no way that the Titan mid driver and CD would not roar at the same wattage sent to the Paradigms.
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post #24 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 08:17 AM
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Good point. There's no way that the Titan mid driver and CD would not roar at the same wattage sent to the Paradigms.
Yep. Something's got to be wrong either with the crossover assembly or the wiring to the drivers. Also- room modes would affect the Paradigms and the Daytons as well, so that doesn't really account for the differences he's hearing in playback between them, either.

OP- I know it's a pain in the butt, but you need to follow Erich's advice and post pictures of one of your crossovers, front and back. Both Matt (who designed the Titans and the crossovers) and Erich (who operates DIYSG) are actively responding to you in this thread. Take advantage of it!

If the XO's check out, I'd look at your wiring next. Make sure your +'s and -'s all match up.
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post #25 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 09:12 AM
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I still think something is wrong. He said it takes much more volume to get the Titans to play loud than the Paradigms and that should not be the case. Whether the Titans extend deeper or not the range it can play should be much louder at the same master volume. If this is not the case then something could be wired wrong internally or something wrong with the driver?

Low distortion makes seems things not 'as loud'.

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post #26 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 09:16 AM
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Yes, but 10dB difference in sensitivity should make a huge difference in loudness. The AVR should have set the trims to much less than the paradigms or something of note. If he kept the same trim it would be much louder.
I had someone go from paradigms to JTR speakers and the difference was obvious in sensitivity as well.

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post #27 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I still think something is wrong. He said it takes much more volume to get the Titans to play loud than the Paradigms and that should not be the case. Whether the Titans extend deeper or not the range it can play should be much louder at the same master volume. If this is not the case then something could be wired wrong internally or something wrong with the driver?
I agree with what you are saying, but he said the "titans take way more power to get to enjoyable levels..." It depends on what that really means. If he is just referring to enjoyable levels of bass, then it could still have everything to do with placement, especially since he said due to the width of the titans he cannot put them in the same spot where his other speakers sit.


Just a thought.

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post #28 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 09:58 AM
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Yes but based on his graphs that should not be the case. The Titans are still much more sensitive in the region it was designed for and should not take more power to get loud, it should take less. Now if he is looking for bass under the range of the Titan then it would more, but it's -10 dB point should still be equal to the Paradigms in loudness, wherever that frequency happens. This is not what a normal response is going from low to high sensitivity speakers is. Usually one says, Holy crap, these are loud and much more dynamic because they are. Something is wrong. If he has a null in the bass due to positioning then the highs and mids should be so much louder and sound out of balance. The whole speaker is more sensitive, not just bass. His response shows in balance with it dropping off at 50hz which is probably normal in full range.

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post #29 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
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Another attempt!
Like others have said I would post a crossover picture. That looks like it could be the problem, mids and highs look like they are 20db down almost right at the woofer crossover point.


Even if the bass was lackluster the mids and highs should blow you out of the room at the same wattage as you normally run the Paradigms.
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post #30 of 66 Old 07-20-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
Yes but based on his graphs that should not be the case. The Titans are still much more sensitive in the region it was designed for and should not take more power to get loud, it should take less. Now if he is looking for bass under the range of the Titan then it would more, but it's -10 dB point should still be equal to the Paradigms in loudness, wherever that frequency happens. This is not what a normal response is going from low to high sensitivity speakers is. Usually one says, Holy crap, these are loud and much more dynamic because they are. Something is wrong. If he has a null in the bass due to positioning then the highs and mids should be so much louder and sound out of balance. The whole speaker is more sensitive, not just bass. His response shows in balance with it dropping off at 50hz which is probably normal in full range.

I agree. Judging by the graph they should sound tremendously midbass heavy.
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