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post #61 of 84 Old 03-20-2019, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigJake82 View Post
I agree with Trimlock I'd definitely keep the Mag 12's ported. You could stuff the ports in your current boxes and see if you like it, but these are pretty much designed to go in a vented box. Don't be surprised if your f3 is 90-100hz, vs 40-50hz in a proper vented box.

Also 18>15. If you plan on sealed you want to go with 18's. Sealed 15's aren't going to be that much of an upgrade over ported 12's. 2kw is enough for a couple decent 18's, or one pretty good one.
Thanks for the advice! What would be a good one? I was looking at the Dayton reference HO to replace the Rythmik but I could drop more coin than that.

No way would I seal up those MBMs. They model crazy in a sealed config. I meant sealed replacements if I replaced them with Sealed Dayton HO’s (the smaller box is attractive).

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post #62 of 84 Old 03-20-2019, 10:07 AM
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Thanks for the advice! What would be a good one? I was looking at the Dayton reference HO to replace the Rythmik but I could drop more coin than that.

No way would I seal up those MBMs. They model crazy in a sealed config. I meant sealed replacements if I replaced them with Sealed Dayton HO’s (the smaller box is attractive).


I would for sure say to stick a sealed big sub with the mag 12’s. The UM’s IMO model very good in sealed versus the HO and take more power, has better xmax and is just an overall better design.


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post #63 of 84 Old 03-20-2019, 10:19 AM
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Thanks for the advice! What would be a good one? I was looking at the Dayton reference HO to replace the Rythmik but I could drop more coin than that.

No way would I seal up those MBMs. They model crazy in a sealed config. I meant sealed replacements if I replaced them with Sealed Dayton HO’s (the smaller box is attractive).

Here's a few I loaded up in WinISD real quick. I did everything in 4cuft boxes, single for the Fi HT-3 and SI HST-18. Dual for the UM18's and Fi HT-1's. Everything modeled with 2kw. UM18's are dual 2 ohm so you won't get 2kw from your XLS2002, you would have to get a different amp setup for those to get 1kw ea. They are mostly there for comparison purposes, you could run one off your XLS though if you wanted. You run into the same problem with the HO18 seeing as they are 4 ohm. UM18's would get 650w each from the XLS2002. These aren't your only options, lots of good 18's out there.

Build any of these in 22" cubes and they will only be marginally larger then your Rythmiks, 5" width, 1.5" height.
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post #64 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigJake82 View Post
Here's a few I loaded up in WinISD real quick. I did everything in 4cuft boxes, single for the Fi HT-3 and SI HST-18. Dual for the UM18's and Fi HT-1's. Everything modeled with 2kw. UM18's are dual 2 ohm so you won't get 2kw from your XLS2002, you would have to get a different amp setup for those to get 1kw ea. They are mostly there for comparison purposes, you could run one off your XLS though if you wanted. You run into the same problem with the HO18 seeing as they are 4 ohm. UM18's would get 650w each from the XLS2002. These aren't your only options, lots of good 18's out there.

Build any of these in 22" cubes and they will only be marginally larger then your Rythmiks, 5" width, 1.5" height.
Here's what I have for sizing:

Dayton HO 18" sealed: 2.5 cuft
Dayton HO 18" vented: 4.5 cuft
Dayton HO 15" sealed: 1.5cuft
Dayton HO 15" vented: 3.5 cuft 24Hz
Dayton HO 12" sealed: .8 cuft
Dayton HO 12" vented: 1.3 cuft 24Hz
Given I only listen at -15dB max volume with subs 6dB hot I really only need to hit 101dB (or would it be 111dB) from all of these. I think 2 15's and 2 12's sealed would hit that.

Attached are some compression sweeps I did when I first got the LVX 12's. I can say that the 0MV one was uncomfortably loud. I don't even remember if it's the 110dB humps (no room correction) or even the 101.

The 18" vented is just too big of a box, heck the 15" vented is not my fav either (but maybe I could squeeze 3 cuft and give up some low end).
Thoughts?
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post #65 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I ran these a double drivers in double sized boxes with double wattage because there will be 2 of each of them.

  • The double ported 12" fronts equal the double sealed 15" rears from 20 to 40Hz;
  • The double sealed 15" rears equal the midbass of the current Mags I have
  • Just 2 sim what a max spl would look like I put 4 ported 12" and they basically align with the double ported 15"s with 113dB at 20Hz (with 2 of them being 15's it would obviously be higher) and equal the mid-bass of the double mags
  • Just 2 sim what a max spl would look like I put 4 sealed 12" and they basically align with the double ported 15"s with 109dB at 20Hz (with 2 of them being 15's it would obviously be higher) and equal the mid-bass of the double mags
The lower 2 sims would be similar to what reality would be (conservatively). The question would be is this an upgrade from what I have sonically? People rave about the Rythmik's but I have no frame of reference. I'm really happy with the newly tuned Mags but wonder what a full range sub would sound like upfront in a smaller sealed box...
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post #66 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 11:49 AM
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Magnum 12 MBM not what I'm expecting (so far)

Hey while you guys are modeling stuff, can you maybe see what 3 PA460s tuned to 42Hz in say a 11-12cuft vol cab would produce vs:

4 Mag12s in an 8 cuft vol cab tuned to 42Hz?

And for giggles if you have another 5 minutes maybe a pair of 18DS115 in the same box as the PA460 model? I know big difference but checking out some bang for the buck.




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post #67 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 12:42 PM
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Look up the Flex-12's that MTG-90 took to one of the audio GTG's. Two Magnum-12's in what I believe were 3cuft enclosures tuned low and DSP. No one could believe they were only 12's.
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post #68 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
Here's what I have for sizing:

Dayton HO 18" sealed: 2.5 cuft
Dayton HO 18" vented: 4.5 cuft
Dayton HO 15" sealed: 1.5cuft
Dayton HO 15" vented: 3.5 cuft 24Hz
Dayton HO 12" sealed: .8 cuft
Dayton HO 12" vented: 1.3 cuft 24Hz
Given I only listen at -15dB max volume with subs 6dB hot I really only need to hit 101dB (or would it be 111dB) from all of these. I think 2 15's and 2 12's sealed would hit that.

Attached are some compression sweeps I did when I first got the LVX 12's. I can say that the 0MV one was uncomfortably loud. I don't even remember if it's the 110dB humps (no room correction) or even the 101.

The 18" vented is just too big of a box, heck the 15" vented is not my fav either (but maybe I could squeeze 3 cuft and give up some low end).
Thoughts?

Reference is 115db for bass, so 115-15=100+6= 106db at listening position.

Id definitely have a look at the Flex 12 thread like Erich mentioned. The solution might just be new enclosures for your Mag 12's. Worth a try at the very least, they about at the upper limit of what you want size wise. If they don't work out your just out some time and wood.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/401-d...bm-12-kit.html
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I wish I could find the post from Eng-999 (I think) when those Flex-12's were first fired up at that GTG.
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post #70 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Look up the Flex-12's that MTG-90 took to one of the audio GTG's. Two Magnum-12's in what I believe were 3cuft enclosures tuned low and DSP. No one could believe they were only 12's.
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Reference is 115db for bass, so 115-15=100+6= 106db at listening position.

Id definitely have a look at the Flex 12 thread like Erich mentioned. The solution might just be new enclosures for your Mag 12's. Worth a try at the very least, they about at the upper limit of what you want size wise. If they don't work out your just out some time and wood.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/401-d...bm-12-kit.html
Hmmm. I may give that a try for my rears (which are hidden). The absolute max I can do is 1.3 cuft up front. Perhaps I put these in back and get some Dayton's 12's up front. Then they'll all be full range and tuned to the same frequency.

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post #71 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a few I loaded up in WinISD real quick. I did everything in 4cuft boxes, single for the Fi HT-3 and SI HST-18. Dual for the UM18's and Fi HT-1's. Everything modeled with 2kw. UM18's are dual 2 ohm so you won't get 2kw from your XLS2002, you would have to get a different amp setup for those to get 1kw ea. They are mostly there for comparison purposes, you could run one off your XLS though if you wanted. You run into the same problem with the HO18 seeing as they are 4 ohm. UM18's would get 650w each from the XLS2002. These aren't your only options, lots of good 18's out there.

Build any of these in 22" cubes and they will only be marginally larger then your Rythmiks, 5" width, 1.5" height.
my Rythmiks I see approx 4 cuft and a 22" cube 5 cuft. Am I calculating that correct? I see you modeled them at 8 cuft

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post #72 of 84 Old 03-22-2019, 07:31 PM
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my Rythmiks I see approx 4 cuft and a 22" cube 5 cuft. Am I calculating that correct? I see you modeled them at 8 cuft

Duals were modeled at 8cuft, singles were modeled at 4cuft.


22" cube is about 6.2cuft outside and generally 4.2cuft inside depending on how it's built. I'll draw one up when I get few minutes to confirm.
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I believe @eng-399 flex-12's were custom made because he had to change the port location. they are also 4.5 cu/f.
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post #74 of 84 Old 03-23-2019, 03:37 AM
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Magnum 12 MBM not what I'm expecting (so far)

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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I wish I could find the post from Eng-999 (I think) when those Flex-12's were first fired up at that GTG.


I’ll find it and post it.

Found it here’s the thread for it. Guys loved the flex-12’s the output was awesome from both of them.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-gtg-meet.html

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post #75 of 84 Old 03-23-2019, 03:52 AM
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Magnum 12 MBM not what I'm expecting (so far)

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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
I believe @eng-399 flex-12's were custom made because he had to change the port location. they are also 4.5 cu/f.


Yep I side ported them and made them have less depth because of where I was going to put them.
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I’ll find it and post it.

Found it here’s the thread for it. Guys loved the flex-12’s the output was awesome from both of them.
The post I'm thinking about was the very first time Matt brought the Flex-12's to one of the GTG's. I think it was a year before the one you posted, not sure. When they were fired up people couldn't believe they were just 12's.

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Yep I side ported them and made them have less depth because of where I was going to put them.
I'm definitely building those! What was the cuft and tune (24 or 20)? The model weird and I needed an aggressive HPF right at tune which lowered that and then I needed a negative PEQ around 35Hz to keep the excursion under control.



I can experiment with my existing boxes with some Dayton's upfront sealed in a smaller box or tuned to the same tune. So the cost of all of this is some lumber and 2 Dayton 12" DVC's or 2 additional mags

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I'm definitely building those! What was the cuft and tune (24 or 20)? The model weird and I needed an aggressive HPF right at tune which lowered that and then I needed a negative PEQ around 35Hz to keep the excursion under control.



I can experiment with my existing boxes with some Dayton's upfront sealed in a smaller box or tuned to the same tune. So the cost of all of this is some lumber and 2 Dayton 12" DVC's or 2 additional mags


I’ll check when I get home on the size and tune for ya.
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my Rythmiks I see approx 4 cuft and a 22" cube 5 cuft. Am I calculating that correct? I see you modeled them at 8 cuft

Drew one up real quick, it's actually 4.8cuft not including driver displacement or bracing. I'd figured it with .75" wood, double front baffle.
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Drew one up real quick, it's actually 4.8cuft not including driver displacement or bracing. I'd figured it with .75" wood, double front baffle.
Thank you for doing that! I'm pretty pumped with my options right now. No new amps and I can build a few new boxes and test drivers.

It will be hilarious if the Rythmik's and Mag mids work out. Then it'll have all been for science and woodworking! I've got a hankering to get a table saw... My birthday is coming up!

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post #81 of 84 Old 03-23-2019, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I’ll check when I get home on the size and tune for ya.
Thanks! I'm very interested in trying it out.

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post #82 of 84 Old 03-23-2019, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm definitely building those! What was the cuft and tune (24 or 20)? The model weird and I needed an aggressive HPF right at tune which lowered that and then I needed a negative PEQ around 35Hz to keep the excursion under control.



I can experiment with my existing boxes with some Dayton's upfront sealed in a smaller box or tuned to the same tune. So the cost of all of this is some lumber and 2 Dayton 12" DVC's or 2 additional mags


I’ll check when I get home on the size and tune for ya.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
my Rythmiks I see approx 4 cuft and a 22" cube 5 cuft. Am I calculating that correct? I see you modeled them at 8 cuft

Drew one up real quick, it's actually 4.8cuft not including driver displacement or bracing. I'd figured it with .75" wood, double front baffle.
Started the test box. It’s 20” cube so 18.5” ID coming to about 3.66 cuft approx 3.4 after displacement. Tuned to 24hz with a 2x7x16 slot port.

Hopefully I’ll have it done and dried by Monday to test.

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post #83 of 84 Old 03-29-2019, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm definitely building those! What was the cuft and tune (24 or 20)? The model weird and I needed an aggressive HPF right at tune which lowered that and then I needed a negative PEQ around 35Hz to keep the excursion under control.



I can experiment with my existing boxes with some Dayton's upfront sealed in a smaller box or tuned to the same tune. So the cost of all of this is some lumber and 2 Dayton 12" DVC's or 2 additional mags


I’ll check when I get home on the size and tune for ya.
Did you get those dimensions? My cube is not a good fit. I’d like something less deep like yours but that can still be upright on carpet.

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Speakers: Paradigm Prestige 75F's + 55C; 8x Paradigm CI Pro P65-R's
Subs1: 2x LRK Build Thread + 2x Rotel 981 (bridged); retired: VRK Build thread
Subs2: 2x Rythmik LVX12; 2x Dayton HF 12's Ultra-NearField + Crown XLS 2002
MiniDSP HD & Non; DIY Room Treatments: Dutch Floral Prints
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post #84 of 84 Old 03-30-2019, 01:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Look up the Flex-12's that MTG-90 took to one of the audio GTG's. Two Magnum-12's in what I believe were 3cuft enclosures tuned low and DSP. No one could believe they were only 12's.
What is the XMech on these? I made a 3.5cuft box tuned to 24Hz similar to @MTG-90;. However, even at 380W, it's 3mm past it's Xmax at 40hz and 20Hz where there's a 4th order HPF at 20Hz.

77" C9 + NAD 758 v3 with Dirac 7.6.4 + Rotel 976 + Panamax M5300-PM
Speakers: Paradigm Prestige 75F's + 55C; 8x Paradigm CI Pro P65-R's
Subs1: 2x LRK Build Thread + 2x Rotel 981 (bridged); retired: VRK Build thread
Subs2: 2x Rythmik LVX12; 2x Dayton HF 12's Ultra-NearField + Crown XLS 2002
MiniDSP HD & Non; DIY Room Treatments: Dutch Floral Prints
tjcinnamon is online now  
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