Calling all Canadian Bass Heads!! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 55 Old 08-09-2018, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Calling all Canadian Bass Heads!!

Hi All - I am moving into a new home soon and am going to be building a dedicated theater from scratch as the basement is unfinished. I was initially set on trying to figure out a way to ship / pick up an HSU VTF-3 subwoofer but it sounds like headache to get the sub across the border, not to mention the exchange rate! After doing some research on DIY subs I figure this could be the best option as long as I can source a sub/cabinet/amp for a decent price. I ideally am looking for dual 15's or a single 18 which would allow me to add another down the line if need be. Is there anyone here from Canada that has done these DIYs and would recommend some great components. As of now the only cabinet I can find in canada is from Solen and is the 4 cu ft sealed box. I have looked at the Mack 5 UXL-18 sub which looks like a monster however I dont know if they are still available to buy. From my limited knowledge of theater subs (I only have a PB-1000 now) I understand that ported subs are better in order to get output below 20hz. Are there any kits I can buy for a 15 or 18 inch sub, I dont really want to build from scratch as I dont have the woodworking skills / tools. Thanks guys!!!
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post #2 of 55 Old 08-09-2018, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
Hi All - I am moving into a new home soon and am going to be building a dedicated theater from scratch as the basement is unfinished. I was initially set on trying to figure out a way to ship / pick up an HSU VTF-3 subwoofer but it sounds like headache to get the sub across the border, not to mention the exchange rate! After doing some research on DIY subs I figure this could be the best option as long as I can source a sub/cabinet/amp for a decent price. I ideally am looking for dual 15's or a single 18 which would allow me to add another down the line if need be. Is there anyone here from Canada that has done these DIYs and would recommend some great components. As of now the only cabinet I can find in canada is from Solen and is the 4 cu ft sealed box. I have looked at the Mack 5 UXL-18 sub which looks like a monster however I dont know if they are still available to buy. From my limited knowledge of theater subs (I only have a PB-1000 now) I understand that ported subs are better in order to get output below 20hz. Are there any kits I can buy for a 15 or 18 inch sub, I dont really want to build from scratch as I dont have the woodworking skills / tools. Thanks guys!!!

Unfortunately for us a Canadian DIYSG equivalent is non existent and there no crossborder shipping option through DIYSG. Some have used reship as an option but your paying for it non the less. Having said that there are some Canadian companies that carry alot of drivers that are used in DIY cabs like qcomponents but I don't think its any cheaper since they are bringing them in from the US anyway.

Mach 5 is still around if your looking for a DIY sub and if you have lots of money to burn theres also Funk Audio.
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post #3 of 55 Old 08-09-2018, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
Hi All - I am moving into a new home soon and am going to be building a dedicated theater from scratch as the basement is unfinished. I was initially set on trying to figure out a way to ship / pick up an HSU VTF-3 subwoofer but it sounds like headache to get the sub across the border, not to mention the exchange rate! After doing some research on DIY subs I figure this could be the best option as long as I can source a sub/cabinet/amp for a decent price. I ideally am looking for dual 15's or a single 18 which would allow me to add another down the line if need be. Is there anyone here from Canada that has done these DIYs and would recommend some great components. As of now the only cabinet I can find in canada is from Solen and is the 4 cu ft sealed box. I have looked at the Mack 5 UXL-18 sub which looks like a monster however I dont know if they are still available to buy. From my limited knowledge of theater subs (I only have a PB-1000 now) I understand that ported subs are better in order to get output below 20hz. Are there any kits I can buy for a 15 or 18 inch sub, I dont really want to build from scratch as I dont have the woodworking skills / tools. Thanks guys!!!
Where in Canada are you located?
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post #4 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I am based in Etobicoke just outside of Toronto.

As of right now, from my initial research I think my best options cost wise are the below. Does this look like a solid set up or am I way off here in terms of selection for components. The one option I am wrestling with is going with two Ultimax 15's off the bat and finding a smaller ported box for each if possible as opposed to one 18 inch and adding one potentially down the line. Would the inuke 6000 be able to power two UM-18's?

Driver
$406 - https://solen.ca/products/speakers/h...ofers/um18-22/
$710 - https://www.mach5audio.com/product/uxl-18-subwoofer/

Cabinet
$260 - Denovo Audio Knock-Down MDF 4.0.

Amp
$599 - https://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-a...w-amplifierdsp
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post #5 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 06:29 AM
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I use croosborderpickups for stuff like this. They've been good in the past for stuff from diysg and parts express.
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post #6 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 07:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks - If I was ordering one UM-18 and the cabinet panels do you know roughly what I would be charged for total shipping/taxes/duties if I was going to pick it up from their mississauga location. I just want to make sure this is a cheaper option than finding a retailer in Canada.
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post #7 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 08:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Maybe a silly question but given I could probably get two UM-18's and a inuke6000 for $2000 and the only real ID option in Canada for that price would be two SVS PB-2000 subs from sonic boom or a single PB-13 Ultra- would there be any comparison in quality between these options or would the UM's best them in every category (loudness, depth, chest slam, flatness in sound)?
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post #8 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 08:50 AM
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They have an estimator on their site once you log in. I'll pm you with details of previous transactions.
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post #9 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 09:05 AM
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You may want to consider the 12 inch JBL deal from the American Walmart. Check out the other threads here. Each one is $30 and four of them combined outperformed a single 18 inch ultimax. There's a significant cost saving there.
I have an 18 ultimax in an end table Johnnysub and it's amazing. It's a night and day difference from my old HSU sub.
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post #10 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
Maybe a silly question but given I could probably get two UM-18's and a inuke6000 for $2000 and the only real ID option in Canada for that price would be two SVS PB-2000 subs from sonic boom or a single PB-13 Ultra- would there be any comparison in quality between these options or would the UM's best them in every category (loudness, depth, chest slam, flatness in sound)?



PB-13 Ultra test here: https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=55


UM-18 test here in 4.2 cu ft: https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=116


You can use the comparative measurement system to see the results first hand of one vs. the other on the Data-Bass website.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #11 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 10:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for sending across Michael, interesting to see the charts. From what I can interpret the ultimax not only gives more low end output but output overall, maybe the only positive for the SVS is that the response is flatter, maybe that could be smoothed out with a DSP for the ultimax. I see that they used a 4.2 cu/ft sealed enclosure in the test, would the results be similar for the PE 4.0 cu/ft box that comes standard with the Ultimax?
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post #12 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 10:50 AM
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Do you have woodworking skills and the tools to do it?
It is way, WAY cheaper to just build your box, rather then purchase a flat pack cabinet...
There are a lot of designs on here, or post an idea and the community will help!
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post #13 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 11:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks unique Pattern - I likely dont have the necessary tools in terms of routers and electric saws so it might be tough however perhaps I can borrow from family members. Is there a good sealed cabinet you would recommend for the UM-18?
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post #14 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
Thanks for sending across Michael, interesting to see the charts. From what I can interpret the ultimax not only gives more low end output but output overall, maybe the only positive for the SVS is that the response is flatter, maybe that could be smoothed out with a DSP for the ultimax. I see that they used a 4.2 cu/ft sealed enclosure in the test, would the results be similar for the PE 4.0 cu/ft box that comes standard with the Ultimax?
The UM-18 was tested in a sealed box, you have to compare it to the sealed SVS. Porting the UM-18 will make it better than the SVS.

Usually when it comes to subs the bigger the cone or the more cones that there are, the better...
With only few or no exceptions.
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post #15 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 11:52 AM
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I also live in the Toronto area and I bought from DIYSG, I just had Erich ship it to CBI USA in Niagara, I then drove over and picked it up. CBI is really cheap and DIYSG is free shipping in the USA so it basically costs you like $12 USD.
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post #16 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, does DIYSG have 15 or 18 inch subwoofer kits, I cant see any?
Given my home theater room is approximately 24ft by 12 ft, ~7.5ft ceilings I am starting to think the 18inch ultimax initially with another potentially later on might be too much, perhaps 2 ultimax 15's from the start would be a better option in order to ensure smooth bass across all seats. Would this be a fair conculsion?
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post #17 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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As I dont have much reference for quality subs other than my little SVS PB-1000, I would love to hear what these DIY 15's or 18's can do. Is there anyone on here who lives in the GTA that could help me with a demo?
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post #18 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 01:23 PM
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I originally owned the SVS PB-1000. I was missing it quite a bit when I sold it and was without a sub for a while. Then I build two Mini Martys with the UM18 and forgot all about that little guy.

I have since moved the UM18 int the PE 4 c.f. sealed boxes, I got the drivers and the flat packs imported by a Canadian Company, but for the life of me cannot remember which. Maybe I can browse the forums to find out. The owner was local and I asked him if possible to get the Flat Pack across too. He only had the UM18 listed on his web site.

Granted if I was to do it again, I would bring it across myself. I live close to the border and get a lot of things delivered to a mail box across and pick it up bring it across myself. So far I have only been charged taxes (no Duty), for all electronics / goods I have brought in, but I guess there is no guarantee ..

As far as skills / tools, you'd need clamps / glue to assemble the flat packs too, unless you are getting a fully build box ? Even so, you'd need to screw the driver in, so you need some tools ?

Really, all you need is a skill saw and a straight edge to be able to cut a box of a custom size that fits you best. You can really get away with just a lot of clamps, skill saw and a straight edge. That is all I have.
Well plus a brad-nailer and a pocket screw jig, but you can likely get away with just clamps. You can even rent stuff out .. I got the jig saw from Home Depot for a day to cut out the baffle driver cutouts.

I am currently in the process of building two huge 20.c.f boxes as a new home for my two UM18, but I am too far in the west to be able to demo this for you when done.


I also own the iNuke6000DSP, plenty of power for two UM18s, a bit noisy fans, but I don't really see any other option that would beat it in the price / power range. The DSP is essential, especially if going ported.
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post #19 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the note Alex - Given cost / execution reasons I think that the already prebuit 4.0 cu/ft enclosures will be a good first step, perhaps I could try and build a ported box at a later point if needed. When you moved to the smaller sealed cabinets from the ported did you notice a big drop in performance, such as getting the extension and slam in movies?
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post #20 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 01:43 PM
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I am afraid to say I did.

Note that sealed are said to extend deeper, but really SPL is fairly low at low frequency, so you do need a lot of them and a lot of power (unless a lot of room gain). In my case the extension of the sealed was not noticeable.

But the SPL at ~20Hz from the ported I did miss ! Rumbling explosions just did not feel the same. That said, they were still decent, and why I kept sealed for a while (takes away much less space in the room).

But I changed layout in the room recently, and really need the extra SPL the ported were giving out at around 20Hz, and why moving back to building ported (and even bigger this time, 9 c.f. to 20 c.f.). The bigger box size would also allow me tune lower, so get deeper extension with the SPL benefits of ported.


Edit: I realize this may be down-playing the sealed 4.c.f UM18 a bit too much, compared to the PB-1000, they are still in a completely different class and I am sure you'd be enjoying them, possibly deciding to just stick with them .. (what I was telling myself a year or so ago ..)

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post #21 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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What is the size of your room? I'm building a theater in my new home in the basement and it is not a massive space, 12ft x 24ft, ~7.5ft ceilings. Hopefully I can get some room gain with a single 18 inch however I wont know until I build it. If only someone in the GTA could build ported cabinets for a decent price!
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post #22 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 02:16 PM
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post #23 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alextr75 View Post
I also own the iNuke6000DSP, plenty of power for two UM18s, a bit noisy fans, but I don't really see any other option that would beat it in the price / power range. The DSP is essential, especially if going ported.
I have an inuke 3000 and couldn't agree with your more about the fans.... horrible. But I replaced the stock fan with a cheapy from my local computer store and its nearly dead silent now.
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post #24 of 55 Old 08-10-2018, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
Thanks for sending across Michael, interesting to see the charts. From what I can interpret the ultimax not only gives more low end output but output overall, maybe the only positive for the SVS is that the response is flatter, maybe that could be smoothed out with a DSP for the ultimax. I see that they used a 4.2 cu/ft sealed enclosure in the test, would the results be similar for the PE 4.0 cu/ft box that comes standard with the Ultimax?

The frequency response posted at Data-Bass is measured outdoors, in a real room the results will be non-flat for all but a subwoofer that matches the room gain profile.



Data Bass used a very large amplifier, and measures at 2 meters ground plane outside. The difference between 4 and 4.2 cubic feet is negligible in a sealed enclosure.



DSP is vital to getting a good response and good integration with your main loudspeakers.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #25 of 55 Old 08-11-2018, 01:19 PM
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Sealed is louder at single digits, and above 50hz it will be just as loud as the ported is. (Assuming the boxes are optimal-box, or equal in size.)

Ported will be flat to its tuning point (typically 14-20hz) and thus significantly louder near that tuning point.
Basically 3 sealed + 3x the amps = 1 ported at tuning with 1 amp with a HPF, something like that anyway...

The port is basically acting as a 2nd cone, but only tuned to 14-20hz (PR style.)
Above and below tuning the port is basically useless.

In order to hear/feel <10hz requires at least 4 sealed 24's or 8 sealed UM-18's IMO (and required amplification).
These are minimums, there is almost no such thing as "too much bass" below 20hz...

Hearing-damage below 20hz is around 150-180db range, and few will be reaching that SPL and those frequencies anytime soon...

1db @ 1khz = 70db @ 20hz
1db @ 1khz = 100db @ 10hz
1db @ 1khz = 130db @ 5hz

and that's for just 1db equivalence... you have 85db, if playing at THX, so you need even louder ULF to be perceived as equal-loudness. (and if you play above THX, you'll need EVEN MORE. )

The lower you tune, the less efficient the box design becomes.
At a tuning of 0.1hz the ported box is identical to a sealed box in terms of frequency response and efficiency. (It's the worst-case scenario.)

Horn is 6db louder than ported, at all frequencies, not just at tuning.
But they are the size of fridges and freezers, and are hard to model and hard to build.
They also rolloff faster the ported below tuning, and are generally useless above 130hz... (unless it is a mid-bass horn.)

In an extreme case, the ported and horned subs will let out some of the hot air from the box, which helps with cooling. It won't save the coil from smoke if you throw 14kW at the coil short-term; it only helps songs after hours and hours of heavy use when the long-term heat has finally fully-saturated the air and magnet structure.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 08-11-2018 at 01:28 PM.
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post #26 of 55 Old 08-11-2018, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the note. So all in all if I would be using a UM 18, and potentially a second, for home theater do you think it would be worth the effort to build a mini marty box where the ports would have more dramatic impact for movies. I have little reference for big subs and only have the PB-1000 but from what i understand the ported nature gives that needed low end for movies.

While getting the 4 cu ft kit would be much easier if there is a chance that I wont notice a drastic improvement from a smaller ported box, I think I may as well try to build the ported enclosure. Is there a general rule for what tuning is best for theater, I think the mini marty is 19hz???
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post #27 of 55 Old 08-11-2018, 04:58 PM
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15hz is probably closer to ideal.
20hz can work in a pinch.
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post #28 of 55 Old 08-11-2018, 05:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible to get 15hz with a mini marty or would some room help be needed. I cant go full marty as I wouldnt have room for two. Would it be safe to say that a um 18 mini marty with an inuke6000 match or beat an SVS PB-13 in terms of output and quality of sound?
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post #29 of 55 Old 08-11-2018, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
What is the size of your room? I'm building a theater in my new home in the basement and it is not a massive space, 12ft x 24ft, ~7.5ft ceilings. Hopefully I can get some room gain with a single 18 inch however I wont know until I build it. If only someone in the GTA could build ported cabinets for a decent price!

You could always print out a cut list and assembly guide for a car audio fabrication shop and have them give you a quote to build boxes for you.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #30 of 55 Old 08-11-2018, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazzer55 View Post
Is it possible to get 15hz with a mini marty or would some room help be needed. I cant go full marty as I wouldnt have room for two. Would it be safe to say that a um 18 mini marty with an inuke6000 match or beat an SVS PB-13 in terms of output and quality of sound?
From what I can quickly see a Mini Marty tuned to 19Hz, can theoretically output a max of 108dB at 15Hz, with a HPF etc, maybe you are looking at something like 105dB, but adding a second sub on the second iNuke channel will then add another 3dB to 6dB. Plus maybe add some room gain. Even if it does not end up reaching reference levels (115dB), for your needs I think it is going to be plenty. You could maybe tune a bit lower with a longer port, but I would not personally do it since you may end up lowering 1st port resonance quite a bit. You really need a bigger box for lower tuning.

I had Mini Marty before, plenty of rumble at low frequencies. If listening at lower volumes, you can consider adding a DEQ, or even possibly a low shelf boost for extra oomph, though I would be more careful with the later (you want to make sure you have proper HPF or limiters set ..). Actually probably scratch the LS idea for ported, you really need to know what you are doing if so, but DEQ is probably fine.

I was plenty pleased with my Mini Martys at the time, but unfortunately switched to sealed since. I have since thrown away the original Mini Marty boxes, so was now getting ready to build new ones. But then I told myself, why don't go all out and build Full Martys. Gave it another night or two, and thought, well, why don't really go all the way and build something even bigger, so currently in the process of building those 20 c.f. boxes ( I now know what they mean by refrigerator subs). Even for that size, I think the ideal tune is somewhere around 13-14Hz, I may end up tuning to 11.3Hz (my original design / goal) given I have already cut the ports up to that design, but if I am not too lazy I may shorten that port channel and retune to 13Hz or 14Hz which I really think fits this size better. It is not going to be much louder than your Mini Marties at 20Hz, possibly even not as loud, but the box size allows me for several Hz deeper extension.

If I can give you any advice, if for movies, plan for the largest you can possibly fit , though I'm sure many would disagree. Just my personal experience really. On the other hand, being honest, I'm not sure you'd really notice much difference between a Mini Marty and a Full Marty.

Something I thought I point out, I was not particularly happy with my UM18 for music, maybe I just never properly integrated them with my mains. But for movies, especially in ported, they sure kick..

Last edited by alextr75; 08-11-2018 at 09:39 PM.
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