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post #61 of 107 Old 08-20-2018, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
I just placed the order for 4 Fi IB318, they said it's in the ballpark of 3 weeks for delivery.
And NX series will not ship till the end of Sep.
My HT is taking shape right now, most of the framing is done. It will certainly finish first.
It will be a waiting game for the sub system to be ready.

------------------------------Wiring------------------------------
Since 6000 it's the same two channel amp configuration as 3000, I guess I can use the same wire method on post 32 ?


BTW, Can you show some target curves you think is good? Thx
That’s a good choice of driver. What voice coil resistance did you get?
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post #62 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 12:11 AM
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I found what I was looking for............ regarding series wiring. I remember reading this back in the 1990s when JL audio was making a big splash in the car audio world. JL Audio dealers were sent a book/binder with info about their speakers, subs, enclosures etc and that is where I first read it I believe.

Like I mentioned before I have compared series vs parallel and I could not hear an audible difference. I only compared 2 subs in series I never tried 3 or 4 or more, maybe then there would be an audible difference? Or maybe it is more of a concern with higher frequency drivers and not as critical for subwoofers?

Anyway just thought I would post it to follow up if anyone was interested.

http://www.jlaudio.com/Info/Subwoofe...oofers/2685253

"Please note that when wiring multiple drivers, it is recommended that series connections between drivers be avoided at all costs. This does not include series connections made between voice coils on the same driver. For more information, please consult our dual voice coil tutorial section."

https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...iring-Tutorial

"It is far less desirable to make subwoofer to subwoofer connections in series. Due to slight and unavoidable differences between speakers and the high likelihood of uneven loading between different speakers in a car, there will be slight differences in the mechanical behavior of the two speakers in series. These differences in movement result in the creation of induced voltage (called back EMF) by the speakers across the series connection. This effect causes a problem when two speakers that behave differently are connected in series because the speakers can modulate each other (cause each other to move), resulting in distortion. The problem becomes more serious as more speakers are connected in series.

The following is a good experiment to show the effect of back EMF: connect four speakers in series and short the positive and negative input leads of the series circuit. Push down on one cone with your hand; you will notice that the three other speakers will move in the opposite direction of the one you are pushing. Now, reconnect the speakers in parallel, short the inputs and push down on one cone. The speakers will not modulate each other because each one is shorted directly."

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post #63 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 03:34 AM
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In still not seeing how back EMF would be a deal breaker if you have the same drivers, with the same (spec'd) impedance, sharing the same airspace. Found an interesting article discussin BEMF and how to test for it.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwo...ml#post4420608

The link takes you directly to a quick test the OP conducted by applying voltage to the averaged Fs of four (4) drivers wired in series. Sure, each driver received a very slightly different input voltage due to their very slightly different Fs.

I was hoping someone smarter than me would have summarized the results of the test, but the main take away I got from the entire thread was... No drivers will ever have the EXACT same impedance, but potential BEMF is typically mitigated by other external factors (such as air spring) to render it inconsequencial.

Guess the other argument could be had that it's basically a 50/50 coin toss of all of the DIYers on AVS alone who have their multiple subs wired in series or parallel. Honestly, I haven't ever heard of anyone complaining either way.
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post #64 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I don't think the 6000 bridges the amps the same way since its actually 2 3000's. If you go with the 6000, you're going to have to wire to each channel, set 2 dps, have 2 inputs (unless you can combine inputs). Further, because it's 2 3000's each one is already bridged so it doesn't take a 2ohm load either. So you're still going to have to wire them like my diagram in post 32 except the connections are the amp will each be their own channel. The 3000 will put out about 600 watts per speaker. The 6000 running 2 channels at 8 ohms are going to be about 800 watts per speaker, maybe a little less. So in the long run it won't be any better and you'll have to have 2 dsps not one etc. I'd still go with the 3000.
Confusing post is confusing...

What is dps? Are you referring to "DSP?" If so, I believe that is a moot point as I am sure you can link both channels together, accordingly.

The NU6000 was bench tested @ 1,800 watts both channels driven to a 4 ohm load for bass duty, so ~900 watts per 4 ohm channel. The NU6000DSP was bench tested and found to be even weaker (sorry can't find link at the moment).
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post #65 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Confusing post is confusing...

What is dps? Are you referring to "DSP?" If so, I believe that is a moot point as I am sure you can link both channels together, accordingly.

The NU6000 was bench tested @ 1,800 watts both channels driven to a 4 ohm load for bass duty, so ~900 watts per 4 ohm channel. The NU6000DSP was bench tested and found to be even weaker (sorry can't find link at the moment).
Problem is, because it’s 2 3000s, it is already bridged as each channel is a bridged 3000. So the amp cannot bridge to one channel and cannot take 2 ohm loads per channel. As the speakers are likely 4 ohm each that leaves the 6000 as a relatively poor choice. He can use half of it and that will act as a single 3000 driving all 4 speakers at 4 ohms. Or the speakers can be wired in series in two pairs for 2 8 ohm loads. In either case, not much will be gained vs a single 3000.
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post #66 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
Problem is, because it’s 2 3000s, it is already bridged as each channel is a bridged 3000. So the amp cannot bridge to one channel and cannot take 2 ohm loads per channel. As the speakers are likely 4 ohm each that leaves the 6000 as a relatively poor choice. He can use half of it and that will act as a single 3000 driving all 4 speakers at 4 ohms. Or the speakers can be wired in series in two pairs for 2 8 ohm loads. In either case, not much will be gained vs a single 3000.
Buuuuuut they aren't. The Fi18's can be spec'd to a single 4 ohm or 2 ohm impedance.

So, at least I now get where you were trying to come from.
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post #67 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 05:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosifee View Post
That’s a good choice of driver. What voice coil resistance did you get?
Guys... I'm having an anxiety attack.
I placed the order yesterday for 4 IB318 @ 4 ohms per markmon1's recommendation.

My goal basically is to run 4 drivers as one so I prefer one input.

It looks like parallel is the way to go but with amp power debate, channel connection method associated with 3000/6000 and wiring options, I'm pulling my hair now.
With 3 weeks delivery time, I guess I have few days to make the change to the order.

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post #68 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Buuuuuut they aren't. The Fi18's can be spec'd to a single 4 ohm or 2 ohm impedance.

So, at least I now get where you were trying to come from.
I know, but 2 ohms isn't a very good choice. I wouldn't order oddball drivers for a specific amp, but rather order an amp to fit the drivers. 4 and 8 ohm drivers are much more common and having 2 ohm drivers pretty much guarantees a series wiring (as discussed above people want to avoid this). Personally, I think a couple pairs in series are going to be fine. Those speakers are going to stay put but the amp may be replaced in the future. 4 ohm drivers really makes a lot more sense than 2 ohm drivers.

So if it were me, between the 6000 and 3000 I'd just save the money and get the 3000 in this case since it'll be about the same, or if the 6000 ends up being a little more due to running at 8 ohms, it won't be enough to achieve the 3db increase so won't be audible.

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post #69 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
I know, but 2 ohms isn't a very good choice. I wouldn't order oddball drivers for a specific amp, but rather order an amp to fit the drivers. 4 and 8 ohm drivers are much more common and having 2 ohm drivers pretty much guarantees a series wiring (as discussed above people want to avoid this). Personally, I think a couple pairs in series are going to be fine. Those speakers are going to stay put but the amp may be replaced in the future. 4 ohm drivers really makes a lot more sense than 2 ohm drivers.

So if it were me, between the 6000 and 3000 I'd just save the money and get the 3000 in this case since it'll be about the same, or if the 6000 ends up being a little more due to running at 8 ohms, it won't be enough to achieve the 3db increase so won't be audible.
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post #70 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
Guys... I'm having an anxiety attack.
I placed the order yesterday for 4 IB318 @ 4 ohms per markmon1's recommendation.

My goal basically is to run 4 drivers as one so I prefer one input.

It looks like parallel is the way to go but with amp power debate, channel connection method associated with 3000/6000 and wiring options, I'm pulling my hair now.
With 3 weeks delivery time, I guess I have few days to make the change to the order.
With a quad of four ohm drivers, the 6000 is a difficult match. It isn't stable at two ohms, and if you run a pair in series off of each channel, the 6000 will make about 600 watts per channel, or about half what the drivers can take. You'll be leaving a lot on the table this way.

A 3000 is a better match since you can bridge it into a 4 ohm load, but that's hard on the amp, so a pair of 3000s is better still. Take each pair of drivers, series them to present an 8 ohm load, and bridge a 3000 into the pair. The 3000 will make about 1200 watts into an 8 ohm load, which is about 600 watts per driver, which is right at the RMS rating for your drivers.

With 2 ohm drivers, the 6000 is a better match. You can run a pair of drivers in series for a 4 ohm load and then run each pair off a channel of the amp. This will give you the same power as two 3000s, but in a single chassis.
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post #71 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosifee View Post
With 2 ohm drivers, the 6000 is a better match. You can run a pair of drivers in series for a 4 ohm load and then run each pair off a channel of the amp. This will give you the same power as two 3000s, but in a single chassis.
I would go this route also. Reading more about series wiring it doesn't sound like it is an issue in most cases in real-world use. Reading the link @popalock posted and I also found some posts over on data-bass and it doesn't sound like it is an issue. But there might be cases out where it is an issue and I haven't read about them or saw them.

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post #72 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 01:05 PM
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Did I hear someone mention the NX3000DSP?



Is it officially for sale somewhere now?
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post #73 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
Guys... I'm having an anxiety attack.
I placed the order yesterday for 4 IB318 @ 4 ohms per markmon1's recommendation.

My goal basically is to run 4 drivers as one so I prefer one input.

It looks like parallel is the way to go but with amp power debate, channel connection method associated with 3000/6000 and wiring options, I'm pulling my hair now.
With 3 weeks delivery time, I guess I have few days to make the change to the order.
Sorry about all this man. Me posting correct information has seemed to confuse everything. I'll stop.

Feel free to PM me your # and we can chat sometime if you like.
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post #74 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 02:17 PM
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@Shreds

Yo Paul, you did a little research on BEMF over at DIYAudio a few years back here.

I read that entire thread and felt I understood the premise, complex math and overall consensus, but did you yourself draw a final conclusion on the topic?

Basically, is BEMF really an issue in a real world sub-woofer scenarios using the same drivers sharing the same airspace? Effectively ensuring the Fs/impedance is within a fairly tight tolerance?

One other thing I feel needs to be reiterated is that people aren't DB Drag racing in their homes. What are your feels on the topic 3 years later? Haha.
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post #75 of 107 Old 08-21-2018, 09:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Sorry about all this man. Me posting correct information has seemed to confuse everything. I'll stop.

Feel free to PM me your # and we can chat sometime if you like.
Sorry for any discouragement.

It might be silly but this is my reasoning behind the earlier purchase.
1, I want to run 4 drivers as one sub so I think 1 input & 1 output is the best way. Nu3000 bridge mode does just that. Nu6000 and dual Nu3000 require 2 channels.

2, I was under the impression that Nu3000 at 4ohm bridged aka optimal configuration offers enough power or close to the 4x600w RMS.

3, Series wiring with 2 ohm drives which should be avoided like plague.

But now it looks like the series wiring is fine, nu3000 become underpowered(anyone has bench test number?), and maybe #1 just my imagination.

So correct me if I'm wrong. There is still time to call Fi audio.

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post #76 of 107 Old 08-22-2018, 03:36 AM
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Here is one of the NU3000 bench tests.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class...surements.html

This test appears inconsistent with the NU6000 bench test posted earlier that is much more thorough. I say that because it is common knowledge that the NU6000 is basically two (2) bridged NU3000's together in a single chassis. However, due to a difference in testing methodologies, the NU3000 bench claims ~2,000 watts both channels driven @ 2 ohm where the more comprehensive NU6000 bench shows ~1,800 watts both channels driven @ 4 Ohm. Anything wrong with that picture?

In my opinion (based on the modeling I provided for you earlier), a single NU3000 pushing your 4 18's is going to be weak sauce, especially 20Hz and below. But hey, positive side to this is that your new drivers won't ever be in mechanical or thermal trouble (unless driven with a massively clipped signal).

Best case scenario you love it! Worst case scenario you feel the need for more output and have to amp upgrade in the future.

No big deal.
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post #77 of 107 Old 08-22-2018, 08:40 AM
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If this were me, I'd just go with a 6000 and be done with it. You can limit the voltage of the 6000 if you're concerned about the drivers. However, the Fi drivers are very well designed. It's not something I'd be too concerned with. My .02

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post #78 of 107 Old 08-22-2018, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
If this were me, I'd just go with a 6000 and be done with it. You can limit the voltage of the 6000 if you're concerned about the drivers. However, the Fi drivers are very well designed. It's not something I'd be too concerned with. My .02

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I agree, but... He would either have to change the impedance of his drivers to 2 ohm for a series connection to a single 6000 (something someone convinced him was comparable to one of the most devastating pandemics in human history), or get two (2) 6000's.

If I were him, I would go ahead and purchase two (2) 6000's since the modeling is showing the Fi's can take about 900 watts a piece before they reach xmax. As you said, even if it turns out to be a bit too much juice, he can actually set the limiter on the 6000 accordingly.

Actually, if I were him, I'd just take a chance purchase a Clone amp, run all four (4) subs off a single channel and have a spare channel for the next four (4) subs I would inevitably talk myself into getting down the road. I mean, one clone amp would be a little cheaper than a pair of 6000DSP's.
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post #79 of 107 Old 08-23-2018, 10:31 AM
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I have been running series/parallel wiring for subs and line arrays for a long time, best sound I have ever owned. Too much reading and not enough experience. I ran 8 SI 18s on one Inuke 6000 just fine, coming from a sanway 14k. I could clip the inuke 6k at 12 dB over reference but needed more than my 20 amp breaker for the clone. Both levels were much more than your average bear. Get more amp only if you are going to push them hot and loud, otherwise series wiring and Inuke will be fine IME. The Fi IB3-18 was my second favorite driver I have owned, the best being the XXX 18.
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post #80 of 107 Old 09-03-2018, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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update:
Baffle wall framing is completed, waiting for the driver to arrive.


But I still have some question regarding the actual speakon wiring for the inuke3000 bridge mode.

Do I use two 2-pole speakon connector to two output?


or get the 4 pole connector like this to one output? Is channel A or B matters?
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post #81 of 107 Old 09-03-2018, 07:48 PM
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Baffle wall looks great man!

I wish I could help with the wiring situation, but I feel like whatever I end up saying will end up being undermined, further confusing the situation. Plenty of resources online to show series and parallel connections.
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post #82 of 107 Old 09-03-2018, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
update:

But I still have some question regarding the actual speakon wiring for the inuke3000 bridge mode.

Do I use two 2-pole speakon connector to two output?

or get the 4 pole connector like this to one output? Is channel A or B matters?
I would use a single 4 pole Speakon and +1 and +2 and plug it into CH A if you want to bridge it.

Also, you could try running 2 in parallel on each channel and see if you can hear or measure a difference in the parallel vs series. I would be curious to see if I could hear or measure a difference between the two. I take everything I read with a grain of salt and test it out for myself to judge or compare. It does not take that much to compare the two and then know for yourself.
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post #83 of 107 Old 09-03-2018, 09:05 PM
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Your wiring diagrams are right. Either a single 4 pin speakon or 2 (more common) 2 pin speakon connections will do the job the same way. Your choice.

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Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #84 of 107 Old 09-03-2018, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
update:
Baffle wall framing is completed, waiting for the driver to arrive.
Is there a reason why you decoupled the baffle wall from the ceiling but not from the side walls?
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post #85 of 107 Old 09-04-2018, 05:16 AM
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How are you planning to get to the drivers if ever needed? Just unscrew from the front? I guess no access (or air flow) eliminates possibility of putting amps in there. Still this is looking neat. I bet you'll be thrilled.

Video: JVC RS4500 135" screen in pure black room no light, htpc nvidia 1080ti.
Audio: Anthem mrx720 running 7.1.4, McIntosh MC-303, MC-152, B&W 802d3 LR, B&W HTM1D3 center, B&W 805d3 surround, B&W 702S2 rear, B&W 706s2 x 4 shelf mounted for atmos, 2 sub arrays both infinite baffle: 4x15 fi audio running on behringer ep4000 + 4x12 fi audio running on 2nd ep4000.
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post #86 of 107 Old 09-04-2018, 05:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there a reason why you decoupled the baffle wall from the ceiling but not from the side walls?
Because the sidewalls are already decoupled from the existing structure.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I suppose I don't need to double decouple.

How is your double projector with the mirror works? The lower projector seems to block the light from the upper projector. How much throw distance you gain from such setup?
I guess the upper projector capable of shorter throw distance? You put two projectors for higher lumen?

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How are you planning to get to the drivers if ever needed? Just unscrew from the front? I guess no access (or air flow) eliminates possibility of putting amps in there. Still this is looking neat. I bet you'll be thrilled.
Well, my LCR is going to be on the baffle wall too. They are tower speakers standing at 50"x13".
On the baffle wall, I will cut the opening for the LCR which is flush and tight as possible.
When I need to get access I just slide the center out and squeeze myself in.
Still don't know using the mains as part of the wall for separation the front and back wave is a good idea for IB setup. Or cut the LCR opening a little bigger, e.g. 1/2 inch gap better than as tight as possible for a "ported IB" kind of setup?

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LCR JBL 590, Surround 530, Surround Back 520c, Atmos Arena B15
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post #87 of 107 Old 09-04-2018, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiya View Post
Because the sidewalls are already decoupled from the existing structure.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I suppose I don't need to double decouple.

How is your double projector with the mirror works? The lower projector seems to block the light from the upper projector. How much throw distance you gain from such setup?
I guess the upper projector capable of shorter throw distance? You put two projectors for higher lumen?



Well, my LCR is going to be on the baffle wall too. They are tower speakers standing at 50"x13".
On the baffle wall, I will cut the opening for the LCR which is flush and tight as possible.
When I need to get access I just slide the center out and squeeze myself in.
Still don't know using the mains as part of the wall for separation the front and back wave is a good idea for IB setup. Or cut the LCR opening a little bigger, e.g. 1/2 inch gap better than as tight as possible for a "ported IB" kind of setup?
You don’t want a port on IB so don’t do that. The speakers should be ok but make it tight and maybe use some weather stripping to pressure fit the speakers into the opening place if possible.
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post #88 of 107 Old 09-04-2018, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
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Because the sidewalls are already decoupled from the existing structure.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I suppose I don't need to double decouple.
I'm not a baffle wall expert -- I was just thinking that the less vibration transferred mechanically to the soundproof shell the better -- but with your massive subs you also need a very rigid baffle wall which outweighs the benefit of full baffle wall decoupling.

Quote:
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How is your double projector with the mirror works? The lower projector seems to block the light from the upper projector. How much throw distance you gain from such setup?
I guess the upper projector capable of shorter throw distance? You put two projectors for higher lumen?
The avatar photo is from my previous build. The white projector (DLP) actually has a very large vertical lens offset (~90% or 140% depending on how you count) and clears the black projector and was used for casual TV viewing and low latency for gaming (in theory) and was used only to fill the 16:9 portion of my 2.4-aspect screen. The black projector was a JVC with much better movie image quality but with costlier lamp and I used the zoom method to fill my scope screen; as my room throw was too short I used a first surface mirror to extend the throw and also with a tilt trick was able to mount the projector closer to the ceiling without introducing keystone in the image; it was slick except for mirror draw line artifacts that require a more costly "polished" first surface mirror to eliminate. Until I recently figured out a good way to use my room length-wise I planned to continue to use a mirror in my rebuild but now that is thankfully a moot point.
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post #89 of 107 Old 09-04-2018, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by markmon1 View Post
You don’t want a port on IB so don’t do that. The speakers should be ok but make it tight and maybe use some weather stripping to pressure fit the speakers into the opening place if possible.
I'd box them in.
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post #90 of 107 Old 09-16-2018, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Guys, I'm happy to report my installation of false wall ib setup is completed.
And the raw measurement met the expectation, left, middle, right seat from 5-100Hz with less than 3db variation.
SBA concept works!
I think if my sidewall is the same, the variation between 50-60Hz would be eliminated.
Right wall is brick+Clips&DD&GG
Left wall is wood stud with Clips&DD&GG



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Marantz AV7703, Outlaw 7700+5000
LCR JBL 590, Surround 530, Surround Back 520c, Atmos Arena B15
IB SBA setup with 4x18" IB3-V2 & NX3000D
Epson 5040ub, 133" 16:9 Milliskin
FS: Brand new never open JBL Studio 580 speaker pair

Last edited by tamiya; 09-17-2018 at 07:24 AM.
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