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post #31 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 04:30 AM
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I would suggest getting a Smiths or Sanway the second time around

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post #32 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 04:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Bortech fp14000 issue

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
I would suggest getting a Smiths or Sanway the second time around


I have an issue with mis matched stuff. I don’t know what I’m gonna do. Is the only known issue with the Bortech that it’s weaker then the others? None of them produce rated power right? I’m sure with one hst per channel at 4 ohm in a ported cab with highpass the Bortech will give me plenty of power. Right? Again, I don’t know.

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post #33 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I have an issue with mis matched stuff. I don’t know what I’m gonna do. Is the only known issue with the Bortech that it’s weaker then the others? None of them produce rated power right? I’m sure with one hst per channel at 4 ohm in a ported cab with highpass the Bortech will give me plenty of power. Right? Again, I don’t know.
Although it doesn't matter to me, I totally get where you're coming from with the mismatch brands. Since matching is important and you already have a Bortec fp14k, then the simplest thing to do is just get another Bortec. However, if it were me I'd sell the Bortec and get two Smiths or Sanway matching FP14ks But that's just me. I suspect you'll be fine with 2 Bortecs...I hope.


PS The owner of Bortec just rubbed me the wrong way. Not only that, his amp tested poorly and you had a bad one right out of the gate Too many warnings for me.

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post #34 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 05:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Although it doesn't matter to me, I totally get where you're coming from with the mismatch brands. Since matching is important and you already have a Bortec fp14k, then the simplest thing to do is just get another Bortec. However, if it were me I'd sell the Bortec and get two Smiths or Sanway matching FP14ks But that's just me. I suspect you'll be fine with 2 Bortecs...I hope.





PS The owner of Bortec just rubbed me the wrong way. Not only that, his amp tested poorly and you had a bad one right out of the gate Too many warnings for me.


Hey all’s fair man. I think it blew up because I most likely had a 2 ohm load on it with no highpass. I can’t remember exactly when it blew or the exact load it had on it. I’m not trying to promote Bortech. Just trying to give the amp a fair shake. Last night I switched everything back to inukes and I am still overjoyed with the bass in my room. Maybe I’ll sell the Bortech to you and get speaker power! Lol
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post #35 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 05:52 AM
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post #36 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 05:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Or





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post #37 of 76 Old 08-29-2018, 06:39 PM
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Understand ocd but don’t double down if the quality isn’t there. Smiths fp14 inbound, I’ll let you know how it is.


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post #38 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
None of them produce rated power right?
I own Sanway and XBS amps, have ran 2-ohms with no HPF on them. All still working...

The Sanway did 15kW at dual 2-ohm of the 14k it was supposed to do.
The XBS 22k did 18kW.

The 22k blew up on NotNyt at 4-ohm near the 8 to 18kW mark.
I would stay away from the XBS 14k, it is questionable.

I would recommend the 20k over the 22k as it is more robust, double the transistors of the 22k in the area that blew up on NotNyt (probably there for a reason me thinks!)

The Smiths did a bit less burst, but more RMS than the Sanway.

If I understand the test results correctly, the XBS has more RMS than the Smiths, because of having 2 power supplies instead of just 1, but not officially 2-ohm stable. Although I run 1 of my 20k's at quad 2-ohm and it is doing just fine thus-far.

Will be testing my 4 XBS 10k's this weekend, although only at 8-ohm and low power, as I need all 16 channels to stay working...

The SpeakerPower amps cost about 8x the price of the 20k for comparable power at 4-ohm.
Two SP2-12000 vs 20k etc, but the SpeakerPower is quieter and more power at 1-2ohm.
The SP2-12000 also requires two 240V breakers.
No risk though.

I think 8 20k's would smoke it pretty good in terms of channel count for the same price.
Higher risk of DOA or failures, but they will send you parts for self-repair, or you can paypal it back to them.

Whatever makes you happiest...

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post #39 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 04:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I own Sanway and XBS amps, have ran 2-ohms with no HPF on them. All still working...



The Sanway did 15kW at dual 2-ohm of the 14k it was supposed to do.

The XBS 22k did 18kW.



The 22k blew up on NotNyt at 4-ohm near the 8 to 18kW mark.

I would stay away from the XBS 14k, it is questionable.



I would recommend the 20k over the 22k as it is more robust, double the transistors of the 22k in the area that blew up on NotNyt (probably there for a reason me thinks!)



The Smiths did a bit less burst, but more RMS than the Sanway.



If I understand the test results correctly, the XBS has more RMS than the Smiths, because of having 2 power supplies instead of just 1, but not officially 2-ohm stable. Although I run 1 of my 20k's at quad 2-ohm and it is doing just fine thus-far.



Will be testing my 4 XBS 10k's this weekend, although only at 8-ohm and low power, as I need all 16 channels to stay working...



The SpeakerPower amps cost about 8x the price of the 20k for comparable power at 4-ohm.

Two SP2-12000 vs 20k etc, but the SpeakerPower is quieter and more power at 1-2ohm.

The SP2-12000 also requires two 240V breakers.

No risk though.



I think 8 20k's would smoke it pretty good in terms of channel count for the same price.

Higher risk of DOA or failures, but they will send you parts for self-repair, or you can paypal it back to them.



Whatever makes you happiest...


Thanks for that breakdown. I’m not gonna be rushing to get anymore amps. I’m back on my inuke power and everything is loud as hell. Anymore power would just contribute to the death of my house. But I’ll get the itch again and scratch it by buying an amp or two. Sometime.
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post #40 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 07:44 AM
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I believe the Inukes work better on real content than indicated. I powered 8 SI HT-18s with a sanway 14k bridged. During two scenes I would trip the 20 amp breaker. I was running 12 dB hot as well. I had my Inuke 6k running my rear 4 SI HT-18s. I tried the Inuke 6k(non dsp) on my 8 Si's and I never tripped the breaker running the same scenes at the same levels. Now I changed out to XXX-18s and I started to clip the Inuke with just one on each channel.

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post #41 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

The 22k blew up on NotNyt at 4-ohm near the 8 to 18kW mark.
I would stay away from the XBS 14k, it is questionable.
I thought it was closer to a 3.8-4 kW output at 4 Ohms when the magic smoke came out during his testing?


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post #42 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
I thought it was closer to a 3.8-4 kW output at 4 Ohms when the magic smoke came out during his testing?


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I think BTH may have been doing the math for all channels. The FP22k definitely needs better protection, but 8k bridged at 20Hz....I'll take it

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post #43 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Bortech fp14000 issue

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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I believe the Inukes work better on real content than indicated. I powered 8 SI HT-18s with a sanway 14k bridged. During two scenes I would trip the 20 amp breaker. I was running 12 dB hot as well. I had my Inuke 6k running my rear 4 SI HT-18s. I tried the Inuke 6k(non dsp) on my 8 Si's and I never tripped the breaker running the same scenes at the same levels. Now I changed out to XXX-18s and I started to clip the Inuke with just one on each channel.


I definitely feel I get good power out of one bridged 3000dsp bridged per 18” sub. It gets loud and it’s very clean. I’m good down to 12 hz at 125 dB in this configuration at -5 mv.
This is on two 30a circuits
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post #44 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:06 AM
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Exactly, it all depends on the drivers need for power and enclosure used. I mean if you need around 2k per driver at above 10hz(especially for ported), the Inuke 6k can do it for under $700. These 4 channel clones can do it with one chassis for about the same money but there are risks. I really believe the only benefit to these clones is when you need more than 2000 watts per driver(xxx 18 qualifies) and you can bridge them for 4K x2 which the Inuke can never do. I have always felt the only way to run the clones were bridged, and they do a damn good job when working. We can't just hook up any load and let it rip, be careful and if you get a working clone out of the box and run it like you should they are great. I never had a problem with my 3 clones from Sanway, all worked great but using SI HT18s they really are not needed.

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post #45 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I definitely feel I get good power out of one bridged 3000dsp bridged per 18” sub. It gets loud and it’s very clean. I’m good down to 12 hz at 125 dB in this configuration at -5 mv.
This is on two 30a circuits
125db 12 Hz Man that's some crazy room gain.

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post #46 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Bortech fp14000 issue

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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
125db 12 Hz Man that's some crazy room gain.


Correction. 120. But I still had 5 more dB to go to get to reference vol on the receiver. And I play reference vol a lot. No clipping.
These subs could go so much louder.
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post #47 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:40 AM
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How large is your room? I have a huge rectangular shaped theater, about 400sqft, that doesn't provide optimum placement for my subs

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post #48 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
mean if you need around 2k per driver at above 10hz(especially for ported)

I thought not's testing showed 1200W (NU4 bridged) and not 2000W? Or did I miss something somewhere?
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post #49 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
How large is your room? I have a huge rectangular shaped theater, about 400sqft, that doesn't provide optimum placement for my subs


Room is 12.5 wide 22’ long and 7’ tall. Open in the rear to the stairs and there is a 4’ opening in the side wall to the rest of the basement.
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post #50 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
I thought not's testing showed 1200W (NU4 bridged) and not 2000W? Or did I miss something somewhere?
1200 watts is at 5hz. Closer to 2K above 10hz and depending on load. Luke's numbers are higher as he used actual drivers as a load. The point is the UM18 and Si 18HT can use one channel of an inuke to 5hz, beffier drivers that require over 2k needs more than an Inuke if running to the max.

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post #51 of 76 Old 08-30-2018, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The 22k blew up on NotNyt at 4-ohm near the 8 to 18kW mark.
god damn you play loose with numbers.

It blew with one channel running at about 3600 watts into 4.5 ohms after 8 seconds. I even posted the scope capture for that.

And those other numbers you quote are at higher frequencies. They burst lower down low. At least use the 40hz numbers I provided if you want something average for bass...
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post #52 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 05:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Just out of curiosity, what’s the one amp to another, of the same brand and model, variation on power. I’m guessing they could easily vary 10 % at least from one unit to the next right?
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post #53 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
god damn you play loose with numbers.

It blew with one channel running at about 3600 watts into 4.5 ohms after 8 seconds. I even posted the scope capture for that.

And those other numbers you quote are at higher frequencies. They burst lower down low. At least use the 40hz numbers I provided if you want something average for bass...
You said it blew at 5kW. (The scope says 5kW.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Short version: This amp is serious business.

It can burst to about 12.5kw at 20hz, 14kw at 40hz, and 17kw at 80hz and up.

Efficiency is excellent, mid 90s into 4.5 ohms.

Tests were performed with a 120v unit on a 30a circuit.

amplifier board let out the magic smoke during sustained high power tests into 4 ohms. The signal in the image below was captured moments before it let go.

This is pushing close to max power at 40hz on a single channel into about 4.6 ohms


2 channels driven into 4.5 ohms using separate ps


2 channels bridged into 9 ohms. This gives you a good idea of the maximum output capabilities of the amp.
It even says on the amplifier: Don't run 1 channel at high power. Bad things will happen.

For their 14k, 20k and 22k.

Nobody buys a 4 channel amp to play just 1 channel anyways so it shouldn't be a problem.

If you only need 1 channel get a SpeakerPower amp, or a bridged Smiths/Sanway 14k for >= 4-ohm

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Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
Just out of curiosity, what’s the one amp to another, of the same brand and model, variation on power. I’m guessing they could easily vary 10 % at least from one unit to the next right?
Even a variation of 2kw vs 4kw (or 50%) is only a 3db difference in SPL.

Even something as gross as 10% would only be like ~1db maybe.
I doubt the amps vary by more than a db, but who really knows...

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post #54 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 06:21 PM
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@notnyt will you provide some clarification on the image of the scope you posted...I see 5Kw as well.

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post #55 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
You said it blew at 5kW. (The scope says 5kW.)
You apparently don't know how to read a scope. That's fine, but don't go posting like you understand it if you don't.

First, where it says 5kW is for the vertical divisions on the math trace (purple). There are numbers all over the scope screen, not sure what made you pic that one. Second, that trace is input power. The average input power which is calculated below, is 3.65kW. The output was about 3500w. The output trace, which is pink, lists an RMS calculation of 126V on the bottom. 126v into 4.5 ohms is about 3500 watts.

Even if you thought it was 5kW for some reason, you just said it blew at 8-18kW, which is completely fictional.

I mentioned the actual power levels it blew at in that thread somewhere. The owner asked me not to publish the info directly right away, as he was still dealing with XBS.

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

It even says on the amplifier: Don't run 1 channel at high power. Bad things will happen.
lol really? on the amplifier? I don't think so. Regardless, it's supposed to have thermal and over-current protection and be stable at 4 ohms. Clearly that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Nobody buys a 4 channel amp to play just 1 channel anyways so it shouldn't be a problem.
More conjecture. If you run high power on more than 1 channel, it's not going to make the problem any better.
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post #56 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
@notnyt will you provide some clarification on the image of the scope you posted...I see 5Kw as well.
Right next to where it says that it says MATH CH1 * CH4. It's a calculated trace, and it's listing the scale of the trace. I've explained what all the traces are in the past, but here goes again

CH1 - yellow - input voltage
CH2 - cyan (disabled in this one) - signal input voltage
CH3 - pink - output voltage
CH4 - blue - input current

There are calculations performed on those traces and displayed below the graph. In this graph the input voltage was scaled too high and the input current too low, each by a factor of 10, so the power graph is right, but the values of those are off. so where it says 4.06A is actually 40.6A and 18A for peak to peak is 180.
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post #57 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Right next to where it says that it says MATH CH1 * CH4. It's a calculated trace, and it's listing the scale of the trace. I've explained what all the traces are in the past, but here goes again

CH1 - yellow - input voltage
CH2 - cyan (disabled in this one) - signal input voltage
CH3 - pink - output voltage
CH4 - blue - input current

There are calculations performed on those traces and displayed below the graph. In this graph the input voltage was scaled too high and the input current too low, each by a factor of 10, so the power graph is right, but the values of those are off. so where it says 4.06A is actually 40.6A and 18A for peak to peak is 180.
Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, and let me be the first to say, I don't understand how to read that scope read out

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post #58 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, and let me be the first to say, I don't understand how to read that scope read out
That's fine That's why I post the tables of power output
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post #59 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You apparently don't know how to read a scope. That's fine, but don't go posting like you understand it if you don't.
My brain is totally fried atm and my eyes are getting heavy and my vision is getting blurry and I'm about to fall asleep, it's been a long day at work...

Yes you are correct. You were measuring input power, not output power. Doh! My bad.
That's what I get for making posts directly after work, instead of just going directly to bed. LOL!

I have never owned a Rigol nor read its user manual; and I would guess that very few AVS'ers ever have, nor ever will...

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
you just said it blew at 8-18kW, which is completely fictional.
I was going off memory of what I recalled you posting several weeks back in a totally other thread.
I thought you blew it at the 17.7kW mark being that was the higher power value, not the lower power sustained sinewaves test.
Sorry for not having a photographic memory. LOL

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The average input power which is calculated below, is 3.65kW. The output was about 3500w. The output trace, which is pink, lists an RMS calculation of 126V on the bottom. 126v into 4.5 ohms is about 3500 watts.
Yes 126^2 / 4.6 = 3451w output power.

I only have one question:
What is the wallsocket voltage during this test?
3650w avg input / 40.6a rms input = 89v rms input, is that roughly correct for this scope or what?
That's a lot of voltage sag if so... (i.e. far from optimal conditions.)

I shouldn't even be doing math in this state to be honest...
I should be drunk or I need another drink... either works! LOL
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post #60 of 76 Old 08-31-2018, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Yes 126^2 / 4.6 = 3451w output power.

I only have one question:
What is the wallsocket voltage during this test?
3650w avg input / 40.6a rms input = 89v rms input, is that roughly correct for this scope or what?
That's a lot of voltage sag if so... (i.e. far from optimal conditions.)

I shouldn't even be doing math in this state to be honest...
I should be drunk or I need another drink... either works! LOL
happens to us all, I'm a bit fried atm myself, worked too many hours this week.

Your power math assumes perfect phase and pf of 1.0, which isn't the case. On the voltage plot, each vertical divider is 100v.
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