Xover setup with multiple subs - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 08-21-2018, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is what I’m trying to achieve: front 15’s running from 18hz to 90hz (port tune to xover). Simple right? Wrong, now I want to add a VBSS also from 30-200hz. How? What equipment and how would I set it up?

My setup: Yamaha 2060 - crown 1502 on 18hz 15’s -plate amp running VBSS’s 31hz tune.
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My nearfield VBSS’s I want to run from 30hz to 200hz. And hope they are LFE and bass managed, but if I were to ask for one I guess I would want bass managed?!? How can I achieve this?

The problem I see is my AVR, using sub outs (LFE) and using a crossover. If I don’t use a crossover and use “large” then the subs will only get LFE and if I set my mains to 200hz then nothing below 200 will get to my mains (would you put a 200hz xo on your titans?) and then I will have no l/r lower than 200.

Why do I ask this? My front stage, sounds awesome crosses at 90hz mains and 15’s. But because I have three concrete walls and a concrete floor I needed the vbss’s Nearfield to help with punch. I had them crossed at 90 for some time then I started playing around and found that they really fill in the dynamics I’ve been missing all the way to 200hz. Problem number 2: if I use a crossover at 200 my mains won’t fill the room and the VBSS’s being nearfield only sound good on the couch. Aaaaaarrrrgggghhh.

Now I’m sure your going to say minidsp right? This is where I’m completely lost, if I use both sub outs I still need my AVR xo first so no matter what I cannot run from 30-200 because there is not a full range out put while using the AVR xo. I hope I explained this enough that you understand. Please help.

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post #2 of 28 Old 08-21-2018, 08:56 PM
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/w7jmpozner...3E%3Cbr%20/%3E[URL=%22https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/1488457-tutorial-dual-sub-integration-using-minidsp.html

Not sure which one you are looking for as I have seen a couple different ones.

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post #3 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 04:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Bump, I read through some of this. It doesn’t answer my question on setting up crossovers to my desire.
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post #4 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 07:13 AM
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You would need to use external amps for the mains. Then run LFE+mains. Set xo to 200hz. Then use dsp to set all the low passes and high passes for everything.

Basically sending a full range signal everywhere and using dsp to control it all.
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post #5 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 08:15 AM
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My first thought is that you probably don't want your nearfield subs playing up to 200hz. That is quite high and bass at that frequency will be able to be localized behind you and not from the screen.

To do what you want, you will probably need a miniDSP 10x10. Then you can send the LCR channels as well as the 2 sub channels to the MiniDSP and matrix the output accordingly with the appropriate crossovers.
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post #6 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 09:04 AM
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post #7 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 09:29 AM
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Buy a iNuke 3000dsp, or the newer version of it, for the VBSSs. Use the internal DSP to control the xover points for the VBSS.

Set your xover on the Yamaha to 80hz. The internal xover on the iNuke should allow you to set xover points for the VBSS where you want them.

If I'm wrong, then a MiniDSP 10x10 would be the best way to go. But, that's $600. Not sure where your budget is. A iNuke is a lot cheaper. Either way, the iNuke is a better choice for driving the VBSS than a plate amp. I like options. And, the iNuke gives that to you.



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post #8 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowan611 View Post
Buy a iNuke 3000dsp, or the newer version of it, for the VBSSs. Use the internal DSP to control the xover points for the VBSS.

Set your xover on the Yamaha to 80hz. The internal xover on the iNuke should allow you to set xover points for the VBSS where you want them.





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How would the iNuke add content above 80 hz for the VBSS ? If I'm reading everything correctly he wants the VBSS to run from 30 to 200hz , and if the AVR is crossing at 80 then the iNuke won't be getting signal above the crossover , or very little depending on the slope .

With the requirements the OP listed , how would the 10 x 10 mini work ? he said he wanted a wider frequency range for the subs than his AVR will send to sub out when his mains are set to "large" , and a lower crossover than his AVR will send to his mains when he has them set to "small" . Again falling into the realm of creating something that the mini is not receiving from the AVR if I understand how all this works .

Isn't this something that would take a preamplifier and seperate amps for the mains and the subs ? He needs more control than an AVR allows if I'm understanding the post correctly .

I'm asking to get a better handle on this , I am no where near the level of understanding that a lot of folks here are , but I'm interested in this because I may run into a similar situation in the future .

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post #9 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13 View Post
How would the iNuke add content above 80 hz for the VBSS ? If I'm reading everything correctly he wants the VBSS to run from 30 to 200hz , and if the AVR is crossing at 80 then the iNuke won't be getting signal above the crossover , or very little depending on the slope .

With the requirements the OP listed , how would the 10 x 10 mini work ? he said he wanted a wider frequency range for the subs than his AVR will send to sub out when his mains are set to "large" , and a lower crossover than his AVR will send to his mains when he has them set to "small" . Again falling into the realm of creating something that the mini is not receiving from the AVR if I understand how all this works .

Isn't this something that would take a preamplifier and seperate amps for the mains and the subs ? He needs more control than an AVR allows if I'm understanding the post correctly .

I'm asking to get a better handle on this , I am no where near the level of understanding that a lot of folks here are , but I'm interested in this because I may run into a similar situation in the future .
The 10x10 would help because he could hook up the LCR and sub pre-outs to it. Front speakers remain as large and the lfe channel is crossed at 200 in the AVR This .will get the signal from the LCR and sub into the DSP regardless if he is using the internal amp or external amp to power the LCR.

If he is using external amps, he can set the output for each LCR to the appropriate amp unmodified so it will receive the full signal.

If he is using the internal amps, they will still receive the full signal (because they are set to large) and the miniDSP now has a signal for the LCR and sub channels. Those can all be combined and output to 2 different channels. One channel will go to the sub with a lowpass filter at 90 and a highpass set at 18Hz. The other will go to his VBSS and will have a lowpass at 200Hz and a highpass at 30HZ.

This will not only give him the LFE channel but will take the 200Hz and below and add it in without taking it away from the LCR.

Hopefully that makes sense.
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post #10 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post

Front speakers remain as large and the lfe channel is crossed at 200 in the AVR This .will get the signal from the LCR and sub into the DSP regardless if he is using the internal amp or external amp to power the LCR.
This is exactly what I was asking......except...... my yamaha does not have a separate LFE xo and a main xo, the Yamaha has only one xo and that’s it. Did I buy the wrong AVR?
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post #11 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 04:00 PM
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Sounds like it. Denon or Marantz would be my recommendation. Pioneer would be my third choice.
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This is exactly what I was asking......except...... my yamaha does not have a separate LFE xo and a main xo, the Yamaha has only one xo and that’s it. Did I buy the wrong AVR?
Wait, wait, wait. You can't set a 80hz crossover to the mains and a separate xo to you subs? I guess that makes my recommendation above not work.

If that's the case, I'd sell your Yamaha and buy a Denon or Marantz.

What are you using for speakers?

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post #12 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Actually, now that you all have destroyed my initial thought I do have an alternative.
Yamaha has a L+R sub setup.
This will work for me (kinda). Here is what I’m thinking. If I set my xo to 200 my subs in front will play from 18-200 in L+R configuration which means I can add a minidsp on that and my fronts will still be okay because the sub is close to my mains so localization will not be a issue (crossing fingers) hopefully. Not ideal for my ULF 15” subs but..... Then I can still use port 3 combining L+R on the minidsp to run full range and LFE for my VBSS’s.<—— this is a question.

Speakers are a 12” three way generic who cares (custom xo’s help) but I built this setup within the last 9 months and a job change has kept me from ordering my HTM12’s and volt 8’s all around. I can pick away $100 or $200 at a time but replacing right now is not happening. AKA.... rabbit hole!

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post #13 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 05:30 PM
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What about your Center channel?

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post #14 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh sorry, bed speakers will be left alone except for the 200zh xo on the mains. My Yamaha has two preouts for the subs which can be setup in a L+R, Front+Rear or a common setup. This is what I was talking about. So, set xo at 200 for my mains, then set my subs for R+L (which all subs will play under 200) and add a dsp for my subs so they will not play lower than 31 and 18. HOPING that my ULF fronts can play that high so no localization or frequency holes happen in the front, I may have to lower my xo but I hope not, I really need them nearfields because of all my concrete. I have and would listen to other options, just hope your option is kinda cheap right now (weak couch rider). Lol

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post #15 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
The 10x10 would help because he could hook up the LCR and sub pre-outs to it. Front speakers remain as large and the lfe channel is crossed at 200 in the AVR This .will get the signal from the LCR and sub into the DSP regardless if he is using the internal amp or external amp to power the LCR.

If he is using external amps, he can set the output for each LCR to the appropriate amp unmodified so it will receive the full signal.

If he is using the internal amps, they will still receive the full signal (because they are set to large) and the miniDSP now has a signal for the LCR and sub channels. Those can all be combined and output to 2 different channels. One channel will go to the sub with a lowpass filter at 90 and a highpass set at 18Hz. The other will go to his VBSS and will have a lowpass at 200Hz and a highpass at 30HZ.

This will not only give him the LFE channel but will take the 200Hz and below and add it in without taking it away from the LCR.

Hopefully that makes sense.

Except as he stated , he can't set his mains as large AND set the LFE with a 200 hz crossover . Am I just being dense and not seeing the forest here ? If his AVR allowed him to make the adjustments you suggest , wouldn't that actually be what he wants to accomplish , without the need for the 10 x 10? Or if both sub outs had to have the same settings , then he would only need a 2 x 4 to set the crossover for the 15's lower than the VBSS . 200 hz and lower for the VBSS and 80hz and lower for the 15's

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post #16 of 28 Old 08-22-2018, 10:28 PM
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Extra bass is the same as LFE+Main. That is what I use to do what you are asking about. @Samps mentioned it above.

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post #17 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 01:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Extra bass is the same as LFE+Main. That is what you are asking about.
Yes, yes, yes! Thank you. LFE+main and Yamaha calls it “extra bass”. Okay so this newbie (me) did not know this and thought extra bass was a synthesized addition to my bass “bass boost”, it’s not.
Now that I know this I can....1. turn this on (extra bass). 2. Add a high pass to my main through dsp using the main out and another amp for my mains. 3. Still be able to control my subs lower than 200 (xo set in the avr) using a sub out channel which then sends the signal to the dsp 2x4.
I am so sorry for this entire post now. Thank you all for helping. Sorry that this was right in front of my nose and didn’t know.

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post #18 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 02:24 AM
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Except as he stated , he can't set his mains as large AND set the LFE with a 200 hz crossover . Am I just being dense and not seeing the forest here ? If his AVR allowed him to make the adjustments you suggest , wouldn't that actually be what he wants to accomplish , without the need for the 10 x 10? Or if both sub outs had to have the same settings , then he would only need a 2 x 4 to set the crossover for the 15's lower than the VBSS . 200 hz and lower for the VBSS and 80hz and lower for the 15's
You are correct. Due to how the Yamaha works, he would need amps for his LCR to do what he wants to do properly. However, I'm still not sure why he wants the MBMs to be xover that high. I'd think 100 or 120 would be as high as I'd go.

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post #19 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13 View Post
Except as he stated , he can't set his mains as large AND set the LFE with a 200 hz crossover . Am I just being dense and not seeing the forest here ? If his AVR allowed him to make the adjustments you suggest , wouldn't that actually be what he wants to accomplish , without the need for the 10 x 10? Or if both sub outs had to have the same settings , then he would only need a 2 x 4 to set the crossover for the 15's lower than the VBSS . 200 hz and lower for the VBSS and 80hz and lower for the 15's
He can set the mains as large with a 200hz crossover. Page 132 in them manual talks about setting speakers to large or small. That option is available.

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Yes, yes, yes! Thank you. LFE+main and Yamaha calls it “extra bass”. Okay so this newbie (me) did not know this and thought extra bass was a synthesized addition to my bass “bass boost”, it’s not.
Now that I know this I can....1. turn this on (extra bass). 2. Add a high pass to my main through dsp using the main out and another amp for my mains. 3. Still be able to control my subs lower than 200 (xo set in the avr) using a sub out channel which then sends the signal to the dsp 2x4.
I am so sorry for this entire post now. Thank you all for helping. Sorry that this was right in front of my nose and didn’t know.
Why would you add a high pass to your mains? I thought you wanted bass from your mains to go through them AND the sub?

ETA: If your receiver has the extra-bass option then that is what you want. I didn't see that in the manual when I was reviewing it earlier. You would want your front speakers set to large with the crossover set to 200Hz. I would then use a single sub output into the MiniDSP and from there you can output to each sub at the appropriate frequencies.

Last edited by Jedi940; 08-23-2018 at 06:04 AM.
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post #20 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 06:13 AM
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Why would you add a high pass to your mains? I thought you wanted bass from your mains to go through them AND the sub?
That is puzzling to me as well. Setting the mains to Large only to High pass them at 200Hz makes no sense

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post #21 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 06:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Oops, I meant low pass. Said that wrong.
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post #22 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 06:36 AM
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Why not adjust the YPAO PEQ settings manually and boost the bass in the 80-200 Hz area? Keep all the subs crossed at 80.
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post #23 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 06:41 AM
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Don't get me wrong, one can do as he wishes with his system, but would you care to share your thought about the desire for your subs to play up to 200Hz?

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post #24 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Concrete walls and floor soak up a lot and I don’t want a riser on my first row. I also believe in “impact sound” just like a kick drum being hit, not like a bass guitar being played. This impact is also like standing next to a 50cal gun being shot or a dragster going down the quarter mile, even with ear plugs you can feel the sound. This is why, concrete.
I demo’d a friends setup and it was awesome right up until he put in a war (gunfire) movie and all was lost, it gave me an empty feeling like I was taken out of the movie.
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post #25 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 03:09 PM
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Got it. I'm on concrete as well, so I know what you mean. Running my MBMs to 120Hz solved my problem. 200Hz began to introduce vocals from my MBMs, which I did not like whatsoever.

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post #26 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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FYI extra bass “is” affected by front xo. Who ever said extra bass is similar to main+LFE is WRONG. Extra bass (I was told) turns your mains large no matter what xo point you are set at, yep wrong.

I think..... I give up. Arreggghhh.

I cannot use the peq either, can’t eq above a xo point.

L+R might be my only choice. Good thing my 15’s are close to my mains (in location).
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post #27 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiophile75 View Post
FYI extra bass “is” affected by front xo. Who ever said extra bass is similar to main+LFE is WRONG. Extra bass (I was told) turns your mains large no matter what xo point you are set at, yep wrong.

I think..... I give up. Arreggghhh.

I cannot use the peq either, can’t eq above a xo point.

L+R might be my only choice. Good thing my 15’s are close to my mains (in location).
I have to ask. How do you know this? Are you using REW? I'm not doubting you, just curious.

I'd look at replacing your receiver. Sounds like it's rather limiting.

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post #28 of 28 Old 08-23-2018, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I turned all my amps off for my subs, turned XB on and off while changing my xo, switched to large also. Pretty obvious. XB is synthesized bass, a glorified Loud button.
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