Another low bass output thread after calibration/eq - don’t think it’s gain structure - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 10Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 10:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jcmccorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Madison, AL, USA
Posts: 4,492
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 597 Post(s)
Liked: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Hmm. They are about 7ft apart but equidistant from the mic position. I’m 99% sure I wired everything correctly...
Gotcha. If they are equidistant from the mic then that's not it.

Somebody here in this subforum posted a WAV file to check subwoofer polarity/phase. It was a low frequency sine wave with the bottom half chopped off so the subwoofer cone would only move one way. The idea was (I haven't tried it yet) that you could put your hand on the cone and make sure it was pushing out, not in. Might be worth a shot.
jcmccorm is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 11:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
jcmccorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Madison, AL, USA
Posts: 4,492
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 597 Post(s)
Liked: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
One inuke channel seems to be in phase with the crown at 0 deg and the other channel is out of phase with the first inuke channel/crown. Again I’m 99.9% positive I wired everything correctly because I didn’t use hurricane/T nuts and didn’t want to be screwin into and out of MDF alone...

I only have Dirac via my AVR. I can get them all to work well at 0deg phase if I set the one that’s out of phase with the other two at a delay of about 10ms.
Hmm. If I'm thinking about it right, doing it that way may flatten the SPL for you but I bet it's inefficient (ie. the subs are fighting each other at most frequencies).
jcmccorm is offline  
post #33 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 12:35 PM
Senior Member
 
moosifee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 288
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 93 Post(s)
Liked: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Gotcha. If they are equidistant from the mic then that's not it.

Somebody here in this subforum posted a WAV file to check subwoofer polarity/phase. It was a low frequency sine wave with the bottom half chopped off so the subwoofer cone would only move one way. The idea was (I haven't tried it yet) that you could put your hand on the cone and make sure it was pushing out, not in. Might be worth a shot.
A 9 volt battery works too.
moosifee is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
ok i ran the wav file test. to be honest, without getting the cones to FLAP, it is hard for me to tell if they're moving in or out even with my hand on them. i mean if you pushed me, i would say one seems out of phase with the other but that could just be because mentally I've seen it measure better across a range of frequencies with the polarities flipped on one channel...

i want to say the test proved it definitively but to be honest unless i really crank it (seemed like we shouldn't do that from @Shreds post), i can't be positive just based on putting my hand on the cone...

any other way to test? will an impulse measurement with no delays set help?
rukus29 is offline  
post #35 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 04:44 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
corradizo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: near Chicago
Posts: 3,413
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1583
corradizo is offline  
post #36 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 05:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
bscool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 1,416
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 889 Post(s)
Liked: 713
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
ok i ran the wav file test. to be honest, without getting the cones to FLAP, it is hard for me to tell if they're moving in or out even with my hand on them. i mean if you pushed me, i would say one seems out of phase with the other but that could just be because mentally I've seen it measure better across a range of frequencies with the polarities flipped on one channel...

i want to say the test proved it definitively but to be honest unless i really crank it (seemed like we shouldn't do that from @Shreds post), i can't be positive just based on putting my hand on the cone...

any other way to test? will an impulse measurement with no delays set help?
Have you tried a close mic measurement, like within a few a few inches of the cone and look at the IR? That way you are seeing what is actually the end result in case a wire or another setting is causing the polarity flip.

HTPC, Sony 40es, 120" Silver Ticket, 7702mkii, Sunfire Amp 225w, JBL 590, JBL 520

PSA XS30, Seaton Submersive, 2 Um-18 8cf sealed, Outlaw Ultra x 12, Kappa Pro 18LF, BFM Tuba 60 horn, B&C 18TBW100 6cf 41hz, 34hz, 28hz tune

iNuke 3000 & 6000 DSP's, Crowson Motion Actuator
bscool is offline  
post #37 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 05:55 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,149
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1158 Post(s)
Liked: 1144
Just run two subs, and standing equidistant from each, play some bass. Flip the polarity on one sub, if the bass seems dislocated, they're out of phase from each other.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________
Augerhandle is offline  
post #38 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 10:22 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaBateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 721 Post(s)
Liked: 517
Just seen this thread after I posted in the build thread.

I always check polarity of the subs by using the impulse graphs on REW. If they’re going up it’s in phase if they’re going down they’re out of phase.

You should measure your mains, look at the impulse graph of mains, & match all subs impulse graph to your mains. Each sub should start to rise right at the major peak of the mains as illustrated below

Also both outputs on both of my 3kdsp’s are reversed. They use European XLR terminals so something is switched backwards.

Illustrating how no matter it was really set (phase) that it doesn’t necessarily correlate with REW.


Showing how my phase issues affected my FR


In phase w/ mains but not time aligned (needs sub distance adjusted)


In phase w/ mains but, needs sub distance adjusted to bring the first rise equal to the mains dip like below with yellow trace


Both in phase w/ mains w/ yellow time aligned

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |

Last edited by DaBateman; 08-24-2018 at 10:29 PM.
DaBateman is offline  
post #39 of 90 Old 08-25-2018, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Just seen this thread after I posted in the build thread.

I always check polarity of the subs by using the impulse graphs on REW. If they’re going up it’s in phase if they’re going down they’re out of phase.

You should measure your mains, look at the impulse graph of mains, & match all subs impulse graph to your mains. Each sub should start to rise right at the major peak of the mains as illustrated below

Also both outputs on both of my 3kdsp’s are reversed. They use European XLR terminals so something is switched backwards.

Illustrating how no matter it was really set (phase) that it doesn’t necessarily correlate with REW.


Showing how my phase issues affected my FR


In phase w/ mains but not time aligned (needs sub distance adjusted)


In phase w/ mains but, needs sub distance adjusted to bring the first rise equal to the mains dip like below with yellow trace


Both in phase w/ mains w/ yellow time aligned
Wow thank you for this! I’ve been stupidly avoiding using the acoustic timing reference which requires a second rca out which would have been a pain to set up given where all my equipment is and where my laptop is and length cords I had. Not a good excuse! Anyway, because of that, I’ve been doing the delay and alignments using matt’s Integration writeup which just looks at regular FR graphs, not inpulse response timing, and looking for constructive interference between the subs. Using impulse response timing is probably much easier and more accurate for both alignment/delay and phase detection. I think I’ll re-arrange my computer gear today to get it closer to my receiver so I can run to RCA outs to my receiver and use one for the acoustic timing reference. Oy! Stay tuned. But thank you!
DaBateman likes this.
rukus29 is offline  
post #40 of 90 Old 08-25-2018, 11:13 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaBateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 721 Post(s)
Liked: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Wow thank you for this! I’ve been stupidly avoiding using the acoustic timing reference which requires a second rca out which would have been a pain to set up given where all my equipment is and where my laptop is and length cords I had. Not a good excuse! Anyway, because of that, I’ve been doing the delay and alignments using matt’s Integration writeup which just looks at regular FR graphs, not inpulse response timing, and looking for constructive interference between the subs. Using impulse response timing is probably much easier and more accurate for both alignment/delay and phase detection. I think I’ll re-arrange my computer gear today to get it closer to my receiver so I can run to RCA outs to my receiver and use one for the acoustic timing reference. Oy! Stay tuned. But thank you!
No worries! Hope it’ll be a little easier to work with that way. Just make sure you always use the same acoustic timing reference for each graph that you’re comparing. I always used HDMI5 (SR) as my acoustic timing reference because it was the closest speaker to my UMIK1.

What do you mean you need an additional RCA preout? The ATR is a high pitched short tone before the sweep begins that comes out of one of your mains (like I said above should be the closest speaker to your measurement mic)

Also I’d measure each one individually and make changes then measure them all as a group to make them all work together.

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
DaBateman is offline  
post #41 of 90 Old 08-25-2018, 11:18 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
No worries! Hope it’ll be a little easier to work with that way. Just make sure you always use the same acoustic timing reference for each graph that you’re comparing. I always used HDMI5 (SR) as my acoustic timing reference because it was the closest speaker to my UMIK1.

What do you mean you need an additional RCA preout? The ATR is a high pitched short tone before the sweep begins that comes out of one of your mains (like I said above should be the closest speaker to your measurement mic)

Also I’d measure each one individually and make changes then measure them all as a group to make them all work together.
Reading austinJerry’s REW guide made it seem like I needed to send a stereo signal (one for the low sub tone and one for the ATR) to the AVR (I’m not using hdmi out on my computer, it’s an older Mac without hdmi out. That made sense to me but maybe I read it too fast?
rukus29 is offline  
post #42 of 90 Old 08-25-2018, 11:21 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaBateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 721 Post(s)
Liked: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Reading austinJerry’s REW guide made it seem like I needed to send a stereo signal (one for the low sub tone and one for the ATR) to the AVR (I’m not using hdmi out on my computer, it’s an older Mac without hdmi out. That made sense to me but maybe I read it too fast?
Apologies you are correct! I just assumed you were using HDMI...carry on. Do report back w/ your findings.

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
DaBateman is offline  
post #43 of 90 Old 08-25-2018, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Apologies you are correct! I just assumed you were using HDMI...carry on. Do report back w/ your findings.
Ha no problem. Appreciate you keeping tabs on this and trying to help. Looks like family stuff is interfering with my afternoon today, so retesting is going to have to wait till tonigt.m before I get to play with more Test tones.
rukus29 is offline  
post #44 of 90 Old 08-25-2018, 01:15 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaBateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 721 Post(s)
Liked: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Ha no problem. Appreciate you keeping tabs on this and trying to help. Looks like family stuff is interfering with my afternoon today, so retesting is going to have to wait till tonigt.m before I get to play with more Test tones.
No worries mate. I’m far from the most knowledgeable person here at AVS but, if I have any insight that I believe will help I’d be more than happy to oblige.

I understand the personal issues, I had some myself this week. Take care of yourself & your family we’ll be here later as needed.

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
DaBateman is offline  
post #45 of 90 Old 08-27-2018, 05:31 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
No worries mate. I’m far from the most knowledgeable person here at AVS but, if I have any insight that I believe will help I’d be more than happy to oblige.

I understand the personal issues, I had some myself this week. Take care of yourself & your family we’ll be here later as needed.
@DaBateman Family leaving tonight, should be able to play again tomorrow...
rukus29 is offline  
post #46 of 90 Old 08-27-2018, 08:48 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
No worries mate. I’m far from the most knowledgeable person here at AVS but, if I have any insight that I believe will help I’d be more than happy to oblige.

I understand the personal issues, I had some myself this week. Take care of yourself & your family we’ll be here later as needed.
ok - finally set up the acoustic timing reference this evening. confirmed what i was seeing, ie that my left sub was out of phase with the other two..

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	sub IRs.jpg
Views:	127
Size:	77.3 KB
ID:	2447534  
DaBateman likes this.

Last edited by rukus29; 08-27-2018 at 08:51 PM.
rukus29 is offline  
post #47 of 90 Old 08-27-2018, 08:57 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
DaBateman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 1,278
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 721 Post(s)
Liked: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
ok - finally set up the acoustic timing reference this evening. confirmed what i was seeing, ie that my left sub was out of phase with the other two..

Fantastic! Well..you know, that you figured out what the problem was. Did it fix your output issue? Once I flipped mine they completely opened up.

All subs look perfectly time aligned so once you fix the phase issue I wouldn’t adjust any subs distance individually from here on, just as a group.

Next thing I’d do is time align your subs w/ your mains using the impulse graphs.

Glad we could easily find the problem.

| Eqmt | Vizio 4K M50-E1 | Yamaha RX-V681 | iNUKE 3kdsp x2 | Emotiva BasX A-100 | miniDSP UMIK-1 | Monolith M1060 | Monolith USB DAC |
| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
DaBateman is offline  
post #48 of 90 Old 08-27-2018, 10:20 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Fantastic! Well..you know, that you figured out what the problem was. Did it fix your output issue? Once I flipped mine they completely opened up.

All subs look perfectly time aligned so once you fix the phase issue I wouldn’t adjust any subs distance individually from here on, just as a group.

Next thing I’d do is time align your subs w/ your mains using the impulse graphs.

Glad we could easily find the problem.
Nope didn’t fix the problem , I had an inkling that it was out of phase and had changed it and set sub delays before my last Dirac run. Mid bass is still lacking but it’s unclear if that’s just because I have a very large room, room mode issues, Dirac messing up the sub group delay vs the mains, etc. see my build thread, I added in all the graphs you requested there... the post-Dirac curves are relatively accurate but boosted vs what they would normally be below the 80hz XO because I adjusted the gain on my amps but did not do a full Dirac recalibration tonight since it’s 1am ha. My pre-Dirac measurements are simply with XO turned up to 200hz and Dirac filters turned off - my post Dirac results use my most recent Dirac filters and trim levels, which weren’t adjusted for the gain changes I made tonight. I’m going to re-run Dirac tomorrow and upload the results in my other thread of subs, mains, subs plus mains so you don’t need to keep checking two spots . But given everything I know about Dirac, it seems it would be odd if it couldn’t get delays/phase between subs and mains right...
rukus29 is offline  
post #49 of 90 Old 08-28-2018, 04:24 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,149
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1158 Post(s)
Liked: 1144
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
ok - finally set up the acoustic timing reference this evening. confirmed what i was seeing, ie that my left sub was out of phase with the other two..


Confirms what I told you in your other thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56676634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Those dips look to be phase related. Experiment with the phase of one, then two of the subs, and adjust your crossovers (one at a time) between 60 and 110 HZ. Write down your present settings, so you can always start over, if needed. Be patient, this can take awhile.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________
Augerhandle is offline  
post #50 of 90 Old 08-28-2018, 04:44 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Confirms what I told you in your other thread:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56676634
Yup, thank you. Unfortunately my bass is still lacking the punch though . Am going to do one more Dirac calibration today (since I messed with sub gains) and see if anything has changed since my last run and dig a bit deeper into whether or not Dirac is doing a good job setting group sub delays vs the mains.
rukus29 is offline  
post #51 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 04:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Augerhandle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: About 25" away from my computer screen
Posts: 5,149
Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1158 Post(s)
Liked: 1144
Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Yup, thank you. Unfortunately my bass is still lacking the punch though . Am going to do one more Dirac calibration today (since I messed with sub gains) and see if anything has changed since my last run and dig a bit deeper into whether or not Dirac is doing a good job setting group sub delays vs the mains.

Did you experiment with the crossover, as I also suggested? Weak mid-bass is usually the fault of the mains, IMO. Raising the crossover point can move some of that duty to your more capable subs.

"The wise understand by themselves; fools follow the reports of others"-Tibetan Proverb
_____________________ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/auger-handle/ ________________________
Augerhandle is offline  
post #52 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 05:43 AM
Senior Member
 
Jedi940's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 480
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 268 Post(s)
Liked: 190
After you run Dirac again, post a full range frequency sweep so we can see what's going on. Left, Right and then Left and Right.
Jedi940 is offline  
post #53 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Did you experiment with the crossover, as I also suggested? Weak mid-bass is usually the fault of the mains, IMO. Raising the crossover point can move some of that duty to your more capable subs.
yes i did, sorry i didn't post - raising XO helped with the null at 70 but really hurt weird nulls at ~100, 120, 140. I don't show it in this pic but 90hz XO seems like a decent compromise between helping the 70hz null but not crushing ~100/120/140hz. The null ~200hz doesn't really get worse with XO increases until i hit 150hz (hard to see that on the chart).



was hopeful XO testing would help but it just messes with those nulls. are they too narrow to really worry about?

Keep in mind I'm using Dirac's implementation of the Harman target curve, which is why the SPL drops off as frequency increase. That said, looking at full sweeps of the L+R+subs, it looks like output is low in the 240hz-350hz range vs what the target should be. is this causing my perceived lack of mid bas or is that too high a frequency range? the dips below 200hz look like very narrow dips that shouldn't majorly detract?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Crossover testing.jpg
Views:	112
Size:	105.2 KB
ID:	2448188   Click image for larger version

Name:	full range response - LRS.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	111.7 KB
ID:	2448190  
rukus29 is offline  
post #54 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
After you run Dirac again, post a full range frequency sweep so we can see what's going on. Left, Right and then Left and Right.
here you go:

Left + Subs:


Right + Subs:


Left + Right + Subs:


All together!:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	L + Subs - Full.jpg
Views:	113
Size:	108.2 KB
ID:	2448192   Click image for larger version

Name:	R + Subs - Full.jpg
Views:	116
Size:	107.7 KB
ID:	2448194   Click image for larger version

Name:	L + R + Subs - Full.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	131.9 KB
ID:	2448196   Click image for larger version

Name:	LR + Subs - Full Range.jpg
Views:	114
Size:	110.5 KB
ID:	2448198  
rukus29 is offline  
post #55 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 09:06 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
dtsdig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,995
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1124 Post(s)
Liked: 1386
All of these measurements are taken from your main listening position, correct? Mid-bass (chest slam) typically resides in that 100-250Hz range. Nulls in this region are more often than not a function of the room and the MLP, this is where the real challenges begin.
dtsdig is offline  
post #56 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtsdig View Post
All of these measurements are taken from your main listening position, correct? Mid-bass (chest slam) typically resides in that 100-250Hz range. Nulls in this region are more often than not a function of the room and the MLP, this is where the real challenges begin.
Correct - these are at Center sofa. It can seat 4 or so but I measured at Center to keep things simple.
I would agree there probably is a room issue but any idea why I am seeing it in increments of 20hz rather than at octave multiples? Based on what you see here would you say something like near field MBMs (or ideally L/R MBMs behind the screen next to my mains/subs) is what I need to fix this? I’ve been reading up on floor bounce and my LCr are 39” off the ground on top of my three subs upfront, so have been pondering if that is causing anything in this range. Ideally I can just eq/boost this range somehow and not get into building MBMs. I do have one unused UM18-22 at the moment but I’m sure that’s overkill for MbM. Maybe a near field sub behind the MLP/sofa tuned higher? My wife might kill me if I keep building subs/speakers as I have 15 already inclusive of the atmos and 3 subs.
rukus29 is offline  
post #57 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtsdig View Post
All of these measurements are taken from your main listening position, correct? Mid-bass (chest slam) typically resides in that 100-250Hz range. Nulls in this region are more often than not a function of the room and the MLP, this is where the real challenges begin.
Here’s a sketch of the room:



And a few pics in case that helps you answe my Q in my initial response. Can’t understand what may be causing those dips in the 100-200hz range and what is lowering overall the response in the 240-350hz range. UXL18s and UM18-22 In minimarts-esque sized ported boxes and three HTm12s sitting on top of them. Pardon the mess!



Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2F6C3F94-C52F-4F9C-9BA0-18EA5CD49B2E.jpg
Views:	106
Size:	128.4 KB
ID:	2448282   Click image for larger version

Name:	B94E5EFD-9B0E-4FE6-9147-62143AEBEFFF.jpg
Views:	105
Size:	132.2 KB
ID:	2448284   Click image for larger version

Name:	83C6B3FF-6373-45E2-9A51-D38AD153822B.jpg
Views:	110
Size:	100.1 KB
ID:	2448286   Click image for larger version

Name:	FF15CB88-F222-455B-A288-3FF587AB6F96.jpg
Views:	109
Size:	86.0 KB
ID:	2448290  
rukus29 is offline  
post #58 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 07:02 PM
Senior Member
 
Jedi940's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Northwest Ohio
Posts: 480
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 268 Post(s)
Liked: 190
Everything looks good from a phase standpoint now and you've got good gain from both the L and R channels up to about 3kHz. Not sure if playing with delay a bit will help smooth that out any more or if you've already got the best response you're going to get by playing with DSP.

I'm a little puzzled by the dip from 3-8kHz. It looks like you're actually getting destructive interference in that range. Perhaps one of your Compression drivers is reversed polarity?
Jedi940 is offline  
post #59 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Everything looks good from a phase standpoint now and you've got good gain from both the L and R channels up to about 3kHz. Not sure if playing with delay a bit will help smooth that out any more or if you've already got the best response you're going to get by playing with DSP.

I'm a little puzzled by the dip from 3-8kHz. It looks like you're actually getting destructive interference in that range. Perhaps one of your Compression drivers is reversed polarity?
Hmm I didn’t even notice that. I think I wired everything correctly in phase but I suppose I’m not 100% confident since it’s been so long since I wired them up. Oy. Another thing to worry about besides the perceived lack of midbass and dips in the 250-350hz range . Thank you for pointing that out!
rukus29 is offline  
post #60 of 90 Old 08-29-2018, 09:32 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
rukus29's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Manhattan/Long Island, NY
Posts: 794
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 285 Post(s)
Liked: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Everything looks good from a phase standpoint now and you've got good gain from both the L and R channels up to about 3kHz. Not sure if playing with delay a bit will help smooth that out any more or if you've already got the best response you're going to get by playing with DSP.

I'm a little puzzled by the dip from 3-8kHz. It looks like you're actually getting destructive interference in that range. Perhaps one of your Compression drivers is reversed polarity?
Confirmed with Matt (the speaker designer) that wiring/polarity 99%+ isn’t causing the 3-8khz dip - the crossover to the compression driver is around 1400hz, so would have seen issues earlier in the frequency range plot. his thoughts were that microphone placement could cause stereo cancellations since the sensitive microphone at those higher frequencies is very sensitive to exact placement and distance between the two mains since the wavelengths are very short. Movement of the mic off exact center by even an inch apparently can cause cancellations in stereo measurements.
rukus29 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off