Another low bass output thread after calibration/eq - don’t think it’s gain structure - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Another low bass output thread after calibration/eq - don’t think it’s gain structure

Help! I want my subs back!

Posted this in my build thread but wanted to post separately since it got no responses -

Signal path is NAD 758v3 single sub out to a minidsp 2x4 HD, which then outputs 3 signals - two to the A and B channels of an inuke6kdsp, and one to a crown xls 1502 in bridge mode (I checked my wiring and all looks fine). All Dsp is done in the minidsp and everything in the inuke and crown is set to default/off. I don’t think there’s an issue with the signal voltages between each piece of equipment as far as I know. Edit: these subs were hitting 100db with no sweat/maybe the first light blinking or steady when I was taking initial pre-calibration measurements or playing bass I love you before trying to integrate the subs together. That’s why it feels like it’s not a gain structure issue unless I am missing something?

So I Finished measuring, integrating, eq-ing, etc my subs yesterday and ran Dirac Live. Measurements look nice and smooth (not flat, I had Dirac apply a Harman curve, see below), but for whatever reason, the slam of the bass is gone from what I was feeling/seeing before I even integrated any of the subs or ran Dirac Live.

I mean I hear it and it’s clear, but I feel like something is missing post-calibration. Let’s say with 3 18’s I would expect the opening scenes of edge of tomorrow to rock my room more than the subs did when I was doing basic measurements below 100db. I can crank the master volume up on my AVR but seems I can’t even get the first light to blink on either the Inuke or the crown in a movie scene with heavy bass, even when I crank it to uncomfortable listening levels in the mains (something like -15 on the AVR, I ran Dirac with the main set at -25, which should have corresponded to 75db).

Input attenuation knobs on both the Inuke and crown are maxed out but the digital gain on each minidsp output as well as the overall Input signal were reduced digitally in my miniDSP a bit when i level matched and calibrated to 75db. Dirac set the sub trim almost smack in the middle of its +/-12db trim range at +2db. There’s a nasty suck out in the left most and right most seats around 70hz but even sitting center sofa in prime spot that doesn’t suffer from that, I don’t feel much like I did pre-calibration and integration.

What am I missing? Do I just need to boost the bass more/cut the digital reductions to gain? Is my curve not steep enough going into the low frequencies (see below graph)?

Note: the below is unsmoothed other than center seat so the ‘higher’ frequency response is more choppy than you might normally see in graphs here.


Last edited by rukus29; 08-23-2018 at 01:19 PM.
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post #2 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 01:21 PM
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post #3 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Now you add in your house curve... Try 40hz LS12 +8db
That is on top of the Harman curve that Dirac added? It looks like it’s already boosting it by 5ish dB vs the mains but youre saying the curve Dirac set is not steep enough?
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post #4 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
That is on top of the Harman curve that Dirac added? It looks like it’s already boosting it by 5ish dB vs the mains but youre saying the curve Dirac set is not steep enough?


Not steep enough for me. I let audyssey do its thing then I add that filter to my iNukes and disable dynamic EQ in the avr.
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post #5 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Not steep enough for me. I let audyssey do its thing then I add that filter to my iNukes and disable dynamic EQ in the avr.
Got it - can you explain a bit more about what that filter is/what acronyms stand for and how it works/how to input it?
Come to think of it, I need to see if the NAD has built in and automatically enabled some type of dynamic eq after calibration - would that compress the bass or just the higher frequencies?
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post #6 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 01:58 PM
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Sorry. Enter the curve into your MiniDSP. This is @eng-399 pic from his MiniDSP.

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post #7 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Sorry. Enter the curve into your MiniDSP. This is @eng-399 pic from his MiniDSP.

No problem, thank you! Any ideas where I can read up generically on what these types of filters do/how they work/what else I can experiment with?
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post #8 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 02:47 PM
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If you can set the target curve in Dirac, you don't need to use the MiniDSP to do it. Have you checked out AustinJerry's excellent write-up?
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post #9 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 02:49 PM
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In the picture you can see the curve. The filter is called a Low Shelf. It's a quick way to do a house curve in MiniDSP or inuke. A house curve is largely based on preference however it usually boosts everything below 30hz an even amount and then tapers to 80 or 90hz. Google "hard knee house curve". You can set up your house curve in Rew via text file or the target response slopes.
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post #10 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 03:11 PM
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I posted to your original thread this morning and you never responded to whether the columns near the measurement mic were 4ft away possibly explaining your 70hz dip.

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post #11 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
I posted to your original thread this morning and you never responded to whether the columns near the measurement mic were 4ft away possibly explaining your 70hz dip.

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i just saw it now, apologies for some reason i didn't get a notification that you responded. doesn't seem like that dip is the columns since they are closer than 4ft (<1ft). but I'm still having this low bass issue even at the center seat which doesn't have the suckout issue.
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post #12 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by moosifee View Post
If you can set the target curve in Dirac, you don't need to use the MiniDSP to do it. Have you checked out AustinJerry's excellent write-up?
i saw his writeup, though it's a bit outdated in the sense that it seems Dirac now includes a "RoomFeels" target curve you can use, which basically does the same thing as the 8dB bump that AustinJerry wrote about without the need to edit a flat curve from scratch. That said, it seems more like 4-6dB bump and even with that i am not very impressed with the bass until ear splitting levels on the mains (and even then the lights on the amps are nowhere near clipping).
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post #13 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Help! I want my subs back!...
...Input attenuation knobs on both the Inuke and crown are maxed out but the digital gain on each minidsp output as well as the overall Input signal were reduced digitally in my miniDSP a bit when i level matched and calibrated to 75db....What am I missing? Do I just need to boost the bass more/cut the digital reductions to gain? Is my curve not steep enough going into the low frequencies (see below graph)?...

Aren't subs calibrated 10 dB higher than the rest of the speakers?

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post #14 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
In the picture you can see the curve. The filter is called a Low Shelf. It's a quick way to do a house curve in MiniDSP or inuke. A house curve is largely based on preference however it usually boosts everything below 30hz an even amount and then tapers to 80 or 90hz. Google "hard knee house curve". You can set up your house curve in Rew via text file or the target response slopes.
ok, this LS helped a bunch. i may up the gain to 10 and up the frequency to 50hz to push it a little more, but i like what this is doing down low for sure. or maybe i should just stick with the harman curve Dirac set and just up the gain by a couple dB across the sub spectrum?

just put on black hawk down to see how it played the irene scene and beyond. it didn't rock my room but was pretty good despite it being a big open space, so is it supposed to be shaking things? i have the amps and driver to push the subs more and have plenty of headroom it seems (inuke lights aren't even lit, crown has one light), but am afraid it starts to get unbalanced at some point? they can def be turned up to rumble the room but unless i unbalance them more vs the mains, i can't stand how loud the mains get at the levels needed to shake the room . should i raise the gains on the amps more?

maybe i also need to start looking into how to deal with the mid-bass suckout - would MBMs help with this? I've got a spare Um18-22..
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post #15 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 06:29 PM - Thread Starter
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the low shelf i added (LS 50hz with a gain of 8 and a q of 0.6) means the subs are running pretty hot vs the mains above the crossover... should i adjust this back down?

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post #16 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 07:19 PM
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It is a matter of taste. I noticed when I first set up my curve it added a ton of "weight" to the sound. I ended up backing it it off to 6db to get the right balance for my taste. Play with the frequency from 50hz to 90hz and go the other way 30hz etc. to see what you like. Be careful because this kind of boost is not volume dependant so you'll need enough headroom to really crank it. I don't know what kind of subs you have.

On another note, I reread your first post and notice the gain structure might leave you in range to potentially clip because your + on the avr sub trim and maxed on the inuke dials. I suggest you find the @Shreds inuke 6k thread and read up a bit. Based on that thread the inuke external dials induce distortion after about 13-15 clicks (can't exactly remember as I keep my amp at 9 clicks). And it may be best to keep your receivers sub trim below zero, has something to do with headroom. I keep mine at -3 some guys go lower than that. Anyhow, smarter guys than me will hopefully chime in to confirm or correct my advice.
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post #17 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 07:34 PM
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if you want to check the signals, just disconnect the wires from the sub boxes and send a 60Hz (and any other frequencies of interest) -3dbFS sine wave from REW at whatever max AVR volume you want. Then look at the MiniDSP input and output signals in the software app to see if you're clipping or still have headroom, and then do the same thing via the iNuke DSP software.

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post #18 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
i saw his writeup, though it's a bit outdated in the sense that it seems Dirac now includes a "RoomFeels" target curve you can use, which basically does the same thing as the 8dB bump that AustinJerry wrote about without the need to edit a flat curve from scratch. That said, it seems more like 4-6dB bump and even with that i am not very impressed with the bass until ear splitting levels on the mains (and even then the lights on the amps are nowhere near clipping).
Sure, but the thing is, once you understand how to set a curve, you can give your curve whatever end points and whatever shape you prefer. That's the key.
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post #19 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
It is a matter of taste. I noticed when I first set up my curve it added a ton of "weight" to the sound. I ended up backing it it off to 6db to get the right balance for my taste. Play with the frequency from 50hz to 90hz and go the other way 30hz etc. to see what you like. Be careful because this kind of boost is not volume dependant so you'll need enough headroom to really crank it. I don't know what kind of subs you have.

On another note, I reread your first post and notice the gain structure might leave you in range to potentially clip because your + on the avr sub trim and maxed on the inuke dials. I suggest you find the @Shreds inuke 6k thread and read up a bit. Based on that thread the inuke external dials induce distortion after about 13-15 clicks (can't exactly remember as I keep my amp at 9 clicks). And it may be best to keep your receivers sub trim below zero, has something to do with headroom. I keep mine at -3 some guys go lower than that. Anyhow, smarter guys than me will hopefully chime in to confirm or correct my advice.
Got it. Spent some time watching different content tonight, so far I like it as is but will try some other combinations after a few days. I’ll take a read through Shred’s thread - the only reason the AVR turned the trim up slightly was probably because I lowered the gain in the minidsp software. I’m guessing if I reduced that digital gain reduction the trim would get lowered below 0 in the AVR. Maybe I’ll experiment with that too but right now seems like I have plenty of headroom, even at high volume levels (for me). I’m using 2 UXL 18s and a UM18-22, both in ported boxes that mimic mini-marry type of performance but in a different form factor.
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post #20 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by moosifee View Post
Sure, but the thing is, once you understand how to set a curve, you can give your curve whatever end points and whatever shape you prefer. That's the key.
Understood. Using the target curves in Dirac Live means I don’t need to mess with things like low shelf filters in the minidsp. Might give that a go next time i run through Dirac.
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post #21 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
if you want to check the signals, just disconnect the wires from the sub boxes and send a 60Hz (and any other frequencies of interest) -3dbFS sine wave from REW at whatever max AVR volume you want. Then look at the MiniDSP input and output signals in the software app to see if you're clipping or still have headroom, and then do the same thing via the iNuke DSP software.
This is a great idea and I can partially do this - I have a Mac and the inuke software doesn’t seem to be available for non windows users unless I’m missing something? Silly question - how do I see in the minidsp if things are clipping - I’ve been watching the lights on the front of the amps and those barely move/light up.
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post #22 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Help! I want my subs back!

Posted this in my build thread but wanted to post separately since it got no responses -

Signal path is NAD 758v3 single sub out to a minidsp 2x4 HD, which then outputs 3 signals - two to the A and B channels of an inuke6kdsp, and one to a crown xls 1502 in bridge mode (I checked my wiring and all looks fine). All Dsp is done in the minidsp and everything in the inuke and crown is set to default/off. I don’t think there’s an issue with the signal voltages between each piece of equipment as far as I know. Edit: these subs were hitting 100db with no sweat/maybe the first light blinking or steady when I was taking initial pre-calibration measurements or playing bass I love you before trying to integrate the subs together. That’s why it feels like it’s not a gain structure issue unless I am missing something?

So I Finished measuring, integrating, eq-ing, etc my subs yesterday and ran Dirac Live. Measurements look nice and smooth (not flat, I had Dirac apply a Harman curve, see below), but for whatever reason, the slam of the bass is gone from what I was feeling/seeing before I even integrated any of the subs or ran Dirac Live.

I mean I hear it and it’s clear, but I feel like something is missing post-calibration. Let’s say with 3 18’s I would expect the opening scenes of edge of tomorrow to rock my room more than the subs did when I was doing basic measurements below 100db. I can crank the master volume up on my AVR but seems I can’t even get the first light to blink on either the Inuke or the crown in a movie scene with heavy bass, even when I crank it to uncomfortable listening levels in the mains (something like -15 on the AVR, I ran Dirac with the main set at -25, which should have corresponded to 75db).

Input attenuation knobs on both the Inuke and crown are maxed out but the digital gain on each minidsp output as well as the overall Input signal were reduced digitally in my miniDSP a bit when i level matched and calibrated to 75db. Dirac set the sub trim almost smack in the middle of its +/-12db trim range at +2db. There’s a nasty suck out in the left most and right most seats around 70hz but even sitting center sofa in prime spot that doesn’t suffer from that, I don’t feel much like I did pre-calibration and integration.

What am I missing? Do I just need to boost the bass more/cut the digital reductions to gain? Is my curve not steep enough going into the low frequencies (see below graph)?

Note: the below is unsmoothed other than center seat so the ‘higher’ frequency response is more choppy than you might normally see in graphs here.

I had a similar issue with the sub output.... I can't find the thread right now, but it is listed here on AVS that the iNuke output is 180 degrees out of phase from SOME AV gear.

Sure enough, when I flipped the phase in the Inuke I had to recalibrate my system and turn the bass DOWN...... this is my experience. Thought it may help... YMMV

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post #23 of 90 Old 08-23-2018, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
This is a great idea and I can partially do this - I have a Mac and the inuke software doesn’t seem to be available for non windows users unless I’m missing something? Silly question - how do I see in the minidsp if things are clipping - I’ve been watching the lights on the front of the amps and those barely move/light up.
The iNuke software runs well on Windows under VirtualBox, which is free, and you'll need a Windows license for the VM.
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post #24 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jujuman200 View Post
I had a similar issue with the sub output.... I can't find the thread right now, but it is listed here on AVS that the iNuke output is 180 degrees out of phase from SOME AV gear.

Sure enough, when I flipped the phase in the Inuke I had to recalibrate my system and turn the bass DOWN...... this is my experience. Thought it may help... YMMV

Juju
Wow. Shoot. I need to go back and try this. Not sure how I missed it. I’m using rca-Xlr cables for the inukes from the minidsp but am using internal AVR and crown amps connected via rca for everything else.

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The iNuke software runs well on Windows under VirtualBox, which is free, and you'll need a Windows license for the VM.
Ok. Need to try this though I don’t have a windows license. Also need to clear some space on the laptop I use for testing. Thanks!
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post #25 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Is it possible that only the A channel of the inuke is it of phase? When measuring the two channels together I get better results with one having the phase flipped
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post #26 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 08:33 AM
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Is it possible that only the A channel of the inuke is it of phase? When measuring the two channels together I get better results with one having the phase flipped
Doubtful. It has more to do, probably, with placement of the subs. Are they co-located or spaced far apart in the room? Having the phase be 180 degrees off has a similar effect as changing the delay (at one frequency anyway).
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post #27 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Doubtful. It has more to do, probably, with placement of the subs. Are they co-located or spaced far apart in the room? Having the phase be 180 degrees off has a similar effect as changing the delay (at one frequency anyway).
Hmm. They are about 7ft apart but equidistant from the mic position. I’m 99% sure I wired everything correctly...
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post #28 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 09:52 AM
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I seem to remember some threads where one channel was out of phase with the other. I'll see if I can find them

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post #29 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 10:21 AM
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OP, You're having this issue with both your iNuke or just your Crown? Are you running both Audyssey and Dirac?
I'm having a similar "issue" with my Crown and I'm trying to figure it out when I get time.

NAD 758 v3 with Dirac 7.4.4 + Rotel 976 + Panamax M5300-PM
Paradigm Prestige 75F's + 55C; 8x Paradigm CI Pro P65-R's
DIY MBMs: VRK Build thread + 2x Rotel 981 (bridged)
Sub: 2x Rythmik LVX12 + MiniDSP
DIY Room Treatments: Dutch Floral Prints
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post #30 of 90 Old 08-24-2018, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tjcinnamon View Post
OP, You're having this issue with both your iNuke or just your Crown? Are you running both Audyssey and Dirac?
I'm having a similar "issue" with my Crown and I'm trying to figure it out when I get time.
One inuke channel seems to be in phase with the crown at 0 deg and the other channel is out of phase with the first inuke channel/crown. Again I’m 99.9% positive I wired everything correctly because I didn’t use hurricane/T nuts and didn’t want to be screwin into and out of MDF alone...

I only have Dirac via my AVR. I can get them all to work well at 0deg phase if I set the one that’s out of phase with the other two at a delay of about 10ms.
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