Would someone model UM15 vs UM18 vs 390HO (eBay code decision) - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Would someone model UM15 vs UM18 vs 390HO (eBay code decision)

Would someone model a UM15 vs UM18 vs 390HO?

I’m not for sure what size cabs the UM15/18 need exactly but, I couldn’t see going bigger than a Mini-Marty so maybe 9cuft @ 18Hz for those two.

390HO would be Microcube so 3.75cuft @ 22Hz

I appreciate anyone that would do this. There’s an eBay code today so I’m trying to make a decision as to what to buy. (before recommending only the UM18 remember my room is only 1000^3)

Price after 15% code

UM15 - $170
UM18 - $233
390HO - $160

T/S for all three





Edit: should’ve added I’d like to throw whichever on another 3kdsp channel so about 800wts/each

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post #2 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 08:44 AM
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Here is the max SPL comparison.
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post #3 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 08:53 AM
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If you can fit and afford the 18 I would go with that. You can never have too much bass.
Box size/spl is always a trade off. The bigger the box, the lower the extension from the woofer. In a small room, if space is a concern then I would model them all in the microcube and make your decision based on that. The mini-marty isn't exactly "mini."

From an amplifier standpoint, the 390 would be easier to drive and require less power as its sensitivity is 4db higher.
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post #4 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Here is the max SPL comparison.
Thank you @bscool

I know at $233 the UM18 is incredibly cheap but, for 2dB at 30Hz and above doesn’t seem worth the extra $60 compared to its 15” brother. I think I’ma lean in that direction.

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post #5 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
If you can fit and afford the 18 I would go with that. You can never have too much bass.
Box size/spl is always a trade off. The bigger the box, the lower the extension from the woofer. In a small room, if space is a concern then I would model them all in the microcube and make your decision based on that. The mini-marty isn't exactly "mini."

From an amplifier standpoint, the 390 would be easier to drive and require less power as its sensitivity is 4db higher.
Yes I can afford it but, you are correct on space, I’m about maxed on floor space as it is. I know the 18” would be a “safer” choice especially for future proofing but, as stated above idk that the 2dB at 30Hz is worth the $60 extra dollars. I honestly couldn’t see fitting anything larger than a mini in my room. I already have (1) Microcube & (1) ID sub in here atm not to mention furniture & my TV stand/fireplace.

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post #6 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Yes I can afford it but, you are correct on space, I’m about maxed on floor space as it is. I know the 18” would be a “safer” choice especially for future proofing but, as stated above idk that the 2dB at 30Hz is worth the $60 extra dollars. I honestly couldn’t see fitting anything larger than a mini in my room. I already have (1) Microcube & (1) ID sub in here atm not to mention furniture & my TV stand/fireplace.
What's in the microcube? Would probably be best to add a second sub that is the same.
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post #7 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:03 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
What's in the microcube? Would probably be best to add a second sub that is the same.
390HO. That’s why I asked about the comparison. I was actually going to do another Microcube with the 390HO for duals but, after I seen there was an eBay code today I figured I’d also look at the Ultimax’s.

For 10$ more the 5dB at 20Hz does seem worth it for the price difference.

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post #8 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
390HO. That’s why I asked about the comparison. I was actually going to do another Microcube with the 390HO for duals but, after I seen there was an eBay code today I figured I’d also look at the Ultimax’s.

For 10$ more the 5dB at 20Hz does seem worth it for the price difference.
That difference is due to the box size and tuning. The 390 was modeled at at 22Hz tune in a 3.5cu ft box. The ultimax was modeled with an 18Hz tune in a 9 cu ft box. SPL will always fall off a cliff below the tuning of a box. If you were to port the 390 at 18 it may be similar.

ETA: Having all different types of subs in all different types of boxes will make EQ much harder as well;.
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post #9 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
That difference is due to the box size and tuning. The 390 was modeled at at 22Hz tune in a 3.5cu ft box. The ultimax was modeled with an 18Hz tune in a 9 cu ft box. SPL will always fall off a cliff below the tuning of a box. If you were to port the 390 at 18 it may be similar.

ETA: Having all different types of subs in all different types of boxes will make EQ much harder as well;.
No I get it but, the only reason I asked for the mini model is because the Ultimax won’t really work in anything smaller than that. The Ultimax being so beloved around here I can’t believe I’m being driven to its reference cousin.

If space/cabs/cash wasn’t a factor here what driver & enclosure would you recommend?

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post #10 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:19 AM
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Allow me to paint a different option for you.

Sell the microcube. Sell the ID subwoofer. Build 2x UM18s in mini-martys.

You'll actually gain back floor space and increase in output at the same time. After you sell the 2 subs you already have, you may actually end up spending LESS on this option than the current options on the table.
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post #11 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:22 AM
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Here is what I get for a comparison between the two. Red being the ultimax. All else equal. 9cu ft. 18hz tune and 1000 watts. They model very close.


Starting over, I would probably go with the ultimax as its a beefier driver and can handle more power. However since you already have a 390, that would probably be the better choice. I don't think that you will notice much difference between the two and it will make any EQ/room correction much easier. If you want to put the new driver in a larger enclosure, perhaps building a second one that matches for the other driver might be a good idea.

As I don't have any experience with either of these 2 drivers all my thoughts are based on modeling so . . . grain of salt. Perhaps others that have heard both drivers will chime in before the sale/inventory expires.

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post #12 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:35 AM
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@DaBateman an look at this graph instead. I hastily put the last one together and forgot to check cone excursion. This one shows both in a 9cu ft box and 18hz tune with appropriate high pass filters in place. 700 watts through the ultimax and 400 watts through the 390.
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post #13 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STL D View Post
Allow me to paint a different option for you.

Sell the microcube. Sell the ID subwoofer. Build 2x UM18s in mini-martys.

You'll actually gain back floor space and increase in output at the same time. After you sell the 2 subs you already have, you may actually end up spending LESS on this option than the current options on the table.
That would probably be more time consuming finding a buyer(s) but, may be a better long term direction to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
Here is what I get for a comparison between the two. Red being the ultimax. All else equal. 9cu ft. 18hz tune and 1000 watts. They model very close.


Starting over, I would probably go with the ultimax as its a beefier driver and can handle more power. However since you already have a 390, that would probably be the better choice. I don't think that you will notice much difference between the two and it will make any EQ/room correction much easier. If you want to put the new driver in a larger enclosure, perhaps building a second one that matches for the other driver might be a good idea.

As I don't have any experience with either of these 2 drivers all my thoughts are based on modeling so . . . grain of salt. Perhaps others that have heard both drivers will chime in before the sale/inventory expires.
No worries, I appreciate your thoughts/opinions regardless. It seems that universally the best route would be to build a bigger enclosure for my first 390HO & just match it with another. I enjoy the sound signature of the reference line and them being almost identical in the same enclosure I’ll probably just stick with the reference rather than starting over with only Ultimax’s.

Edit: yeah the second graph seems that mixing the two or doing only Ultimax’s may be preferable..

Ugh I hate you all lol. I came for one driver recommendation and now I’m basically starting over from scratch. Thanks for posting the second graph, I would’ve went down a dark path there.

Would you model the UM15 in the mini 9cuft 18Hz & full 11cuft 16Hz?

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post #14 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:45 AM
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Winisd is not at all difficult to use

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post #15 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Winisd is not at all difficult to use
I know I need to start on it next, I’ve been tackling REW the last few weeks & there was quite a learning curve with it.

I’m not even to the point of knowing what any T/S specs means other than FS & Xmax.
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post #16 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Winisd is not at all difficult to use
As long as you start with good driver files and remember to check the cone excursion

I also used mtg's driver files so I don't have to worry about inputting T/S parameters and having to track down failed integrity checks. He has them for pretty much everything.
His file is in post 3.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...isd-files.html
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post #17 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
I know I need to start on it next, I’ve been tackling REW the last few weeks & there was quite a learning curve with it.

I’m not even to the point of knowing what any T/S specs means other than FS & Xmax.
WinISD isn't as difficult to use as REW can be. Grab mtg's driver files that I posted above and go from there.

Here is the Max SPL graph. In the larger box, keeping cone excursion under control actually requires using less power around the tuning. Blue is the 11cu ft box at 16Hz


SPL Graph


And Excursion
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post #18 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi940 View Post
As long as you start with good driver files and remember to check the cone excursion

I also used mtg's driver files so I don't have to worry about inputting T/S parameters and having to track down failed integrity checks. He has them for pretty much everything.
His file is in post 3.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...isd-files.html
Thanks! That should make things easier as I see often people always get errors while inputting the T/S. I’ll downlo it today and give it a shot. What is the maximum excursion acceptable or what number should it be kept limited to, is there a universal limit?

Also thanks for the graphs. I wasn’t expecting the full the hurt the performance but I guess the lower tuning does hurt it as it’s not as capable as it’s bigger brother.

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post #19 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 10:13 AM
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What amp are you planning to use? That could influence your decision as well based on the EQ/DSP possibilities. I have a UM-15 in a sealed 4 ft3 box connected to a Behringer iNuke 3000DSP. I have two low q bumps that make it play flat to 20Hz. At moderate listening levels in a 16'x24' room it gets plenty loud without crazy excursion. The amp also provides the ability to add a second identical sub, which I plan to do in a year or two.
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post #20 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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What amp are you planning to use? That could influence your decision as well based on the EQ/DSP possibilities. I have a UM-15 in a sealed 4 ft3 box connected to a Behringer iNuke 3000DSP. I have two low q bumps that make it play flat to 20Hz. At moderate listening levels in a 16'x24' room it gets plenty loud without crazy excursion. The amp also provides the ability to add a second identical sub, which I plan to do in a year or two.
Same, I have two 3kdsp’s but, I was going to run it off one channel of one amp for the time being.

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post #21 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 10:26 AM
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Same, I have two 3kdsp’s but, I was going to run it off one channel of one amp for the time being.

With the 3kdsp you can go smaller with a sealed box and dsp boosts. I think I have a 5db at 20hz and 2-3db around 26-27hz. It's been a couple years since I designed it in WinISD, but that's a starting place for you to model. Just try the software for yourself. Enter the T/S parameters, run sealed 4 cubic foot box sim, and then go to the filters section and test out different combinations of PEQ filters starting with one at 20Hz and supplementing with a second if needed a little higher up to keep it flat. If you keep your SPL average to around 70db (equivalent sound level to your vacuum) with peaks around 85-90db (equivalent to a freight train), you'll be just fine for power and excursion.
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post #22 of 24 Old 08-28-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBateman View Post
Thanks! That should make things easier as I see often people always get errors while inputting the T/S. I’ll downlo it today and give it a shot. What is the maximum excursion acceptable or what number should it be kept limited to, is there a universal limit?

Also thanks for the graphs. I wasn’t expecting the full the hurt the performance but I guess the lower tuning does hurt it as it’s not as capable as it’s bigger brother.
Max excursion varies by driver. In the T/S parameters you listed it is the xmax value. This is the value at which the cone can travel in one direction and still be within the magnetic field of the motor. Once it travels beyond this limit, distortion increases rapidly as the movement of the cone is not able to be controlled adequately by the motor. Sometimes manufactures will also list an Xmech or Xlim and this is the amount of allowed excursion before something physically gets damaged. If you look at the cone excursion graph, you will see a red horizonal line at 19mm. This is the xmax parameter for the UM-15. WinISD will put that in all graphs based on the T/S parameters.

Exceeding xmax by a little - that's ok. Exceeding xmech/xlim - time to buy a new speaker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters
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post #23 of 24 Old 08-29-2018, 05:38 AM
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So what was the official decision?
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post #24 of 24 Old 08-29-2018, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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So what was the official decision?
I decided to go w/ the Ultimax 15. I think ima gonna go through the countless ‘modified’ shallow mini Marty’s and pick one that has some dimensions that’ll work for me.

I’m going to be posting some stuff in the classifieds to help to pay for a second one & probably just move the micro nearfield.

I do have another question, with WinISD what is the preferred port velocity? Is there anything else that I should be aware of when modeling an enclosure?

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| Sub | Trilithon | Stonehenge Variant Subwoofer - 18” - 9ft³ - 19Hz | Marty | Microcube 390HO - 22Hz | Monolith THX Ultra 12 | Monolith THX Select 10 |
| Spkrs | HSU CCB8 x3 | SVS Prime Elevation x2 | Polk S15 |
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