Chest slam - a function of spl, distance from driver, or room size? - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 113 Old 10-09-2018, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Basically the PA-460's have lightning speed
Really?
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post #92 of 113 Old 10-10-2018, 12:21 AM - Thread Starter
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So I tried my 2 MBMs nearfield and behind my screen. Definitely more tactile feel nearfield even adjusting for spl. That said, even behind the screen the MBMs (with pa460s) subjectively gave me more chest thump than my UXLs and my um18 so I don’t think it’s just spl but I don’t know what it is for sure. These subjective observations were with spl matched but I didn’t integrate all three pieces (ie I just tried the uxl/s/um18 and then muted them and ran the MBMs highpassed at 40hz). So I think I’m going to keep the two MBMs nearfield as I can get better thump at lower spl. It would be ideal if I could get the thump from the front but I don’t think I can at my typical listening levels. I may build 2 more MBMs with the pa460s and keep them behind the screen along with the nearfield ones. Definitely not scientific and only my subjective observations. Maybe when I finish treating the room acoustically I will be able to more comfortably play at reference and get the thump naturally from the Fairfield subs behind the screen. The other good result of keeping these nearfield is that I seem to be eliminating a few deep dips/nulls between 100-200hz though I perhaps have a broader but shallower null over similar hz range. Need to integrate and re-run Dirac before I know for sure. Will start a new thread on how to properly measure and run sweeps with three different sets of speakers covering three different frequency ranges and two different sets of port tunes on the subs.
Just wanted to follow up on this. Spent the day integrating the two NF MBMs. Not sure if it’s the very nearfield nature of it (2 18”rs firing a few inches from your back) or the smoother FR in the 80-120hz region (I crossed the ulf subs rolling off at 50hz with a LPF and the MBMs with a 40hz HPF, and crossing the sub output with mains at 120hz) but I’m getting some chest thump now. It’s not true concert level thumping but definitely better than previously (more like chest/back slapping), even when playing the prior setup with unbalanced big boosts in the 60-120hz range where I would feel it in my ears but not my body. Most enjoyable combination since I set everything up - tested it out with John wick 2 this evening. Wow! Will be putting two MBMs behind the screen as well, though it’s probably a waste of time and money since 1) my FR is now extremely flat through 120hz (+/-2db), 2) I can hit sufficient spl without taxing the sub amps, 3) the MBMs are not audibly localizable behind me even at 120hz though you can feel them behind you in your back. That said, I’m building them because I eventually want to use them as true MBMs where I use the two behind the screen to make quasi 3-ways out of my L/R HTM12s. And more is better anyway, right? Curious if I can get more of the thump sensation in my chest vs my back when using two more up front, tbd..
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post #93 of 113 Old 10-10-2018, 01:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
I built two ported enclosures from the design here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...m-w-pa460.html


Am going to integrate and try them by my screen wall and see if I can get the chest slam from that distance at more moderate spl (doubtful). If that doesn’t work, will see if I can get it nearfield at more moderate spl (am hopeful I can based on others comments on the forums). Issue is I want chest slam without needing to always be at reference levels, even if that means ‘cheating’ with nearfield subs. If it works better nearfield, I’ll likely keep them there and build 2 more to sit behind the screen to keep the sound more directionally balanced since I’m hoping to cross these as high as possible with my mains (htm12s).

Have 2 UXLs and 2 um18s, all ported, for <40hz.
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Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
So I tried my 2 MBMs nearfield and behind my screen. Definitely more tactile feel nearfield even adjusting for spl. That said, even behind the screen the MBMs (with pa460s) subjectively gave me more chest thump than my UXLs and my um18 so I don’t think it’s just spl but I don’t know what it is for sure. These subjective observations were with spl matched but I didn’t integrate all three pieces (ie I just tried the uxl/s/um18 and then muted them and ran the MBMs highpassed at 40hz). So I think I’m going to keep the two MBMs nearfield as I can get better thump at lower spl. It would be ideal if I could get the thump from the front but I don’t think I can at my typical listening levels. I may build 2 more MBMs with the pa460s and keep them behind the screen along with the nearfield ones. Definitely not scientific and only my subjective observations. Maybe when I finish treating the room acoustically I will be able to more comfortably play at reference and get the thump naturally from the Fairfield subs behind the screen. The other good result of keeping these nearfield is that I seem to be eliminating a few deep dips/nulls between 100-200hz though I perhaps have a broader but shallower null over similar hz range. Need to integrate and re-run Dirac before I know for sure. Will start a new thread on how to properly measure and run sweeps with three different sets of speakers covering three different frequency ranges and two different sets of port tunes on the subs.
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Just wanted to follow up on this. Spent the day integrating the two NF MBMs. Not sure if it’s the very nearfield nature of it (2 18”rs firing a few inches from your back) or the smoother FR in the 80-120hz region (I crossed the ulf subs rolling off at 50hz with a LPF and the MBMs with a 40hz HPF, and crossing the sub output with mains at 120hz) but I’m getting some chest thump now. It’s not true concert level thumping but definitely better than previously (more like chest/back slapping), even when playing the prior setup with unbalanced big boosts in the 60-120hz range where I would feel it in my ears but not my body. Most enjoyable combination since I set everything up - tested it out with John wick 2 this evening. Wow! Will be putting two MBMs behind the screen as well, though it’s probably a waste of time and money since 1) my FR is now extremely flat through 120hz (+/-2db), 2) I can hit sufficient spl without taxing the sub amps, 3) the MBMs are not audibly localizable behind me even at 120hz though you can feel them behind you in your back. That said, I’m building them because I eventually want to use them as true MBMs where I use the two behind the screen to make quasi 3-ways out of my L/R HTM12s. And more is better anyway, right? Curious if I can get more of the thump sensation in my chest vs my back when using two more up front, tbd..

Hi,

I'm glad that you are getting more chest thump now from the nearfield ported subs, tuned to ~40Hz. FWIW, I believe that you might get even more from ported MBM's that are tuned just a bit higher. If you are going to build two more MBM's to position behind the screen, I believe that I would experiment with a port tune in the 55 to 60Hz range. I don't think that just raising your high-pass filter will have the same effect, although that is something you could experiment with.

As noted earlier, there is more than just SPL involved here. If it were just SPL, then the high sound levels you were using earlier would have given you the chest punch that you were looking for, with the right percussive bass material. I mentioned the research that has been done on several threads on the forum into this phenomenon, and the conclusion that ported subs create a different kind of pressure wave than a sound pressure wave. For instance, the nearfield MBM's which were deliberately run out-of-phase produced cone movement and air movement through the ports, but they didn't produce any sound. And, the increase in chest punch was both palpable and measurable (using a VibSensor Accelerometer).

I think that distance is a factor here, but it isn't the only factor. If it were the only factor, then thunderclaps, or chest punch sensations from outdoor rock concerts (where subwoofers are 100' away), wouldn't be the examples that we think of for extreme chest punch sensations. The pressure wave that we feel from the physical displacement of air seems to be highest quite near the port tune, where the ports are making the maximum contribution, and where the excursion of the drivers is reduced.

If you aren't able to build MBM's that are tuned to about that 55 or 60Hz frequency that I mentioned earlier, then I would still try a couple of Behringer B1200D MBM's, because they already have a port tune in that range. (You could always sell them later if you found a design for ported cabs in a higher range, or if they didn't work out for you.)

I definitely think you are on the right track, but I think you might get even better results with a higher port tune. As mentioned earlier, we are all probably a little different in our response to physical sensations, and you can try to test yourself to find out what specific frequencies seem to affect you most strongly. But, for most people, sudden percussive sounds at about 60 to 65Hz may be the most impactful, and I think that you would want your port tune to be at or just slightly below that frequency range. I hope this helps a little!

Regards,
Mike
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post #94 of 113 Old 10-14-2018, 08:47 PM
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Typical PA drivers have high efficiency and light cones. But most important in my opinion is low inductance.
Typical high xmax drivers are pretty opposite. Low efficiency, heavy cones and high inductance.
The latter just cant do the punchy bits the same way typical PA drivers can.
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post #95 of 113 Old 11-19-2019, 03:56 AM
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Question get that Chest slam/kick

Quote:
Originally Posted by rukus29 View Post
Just wanted to follow up on this. Spent the day integrating the two NF MBMs. Not sure if it’s the very nearfield nature of it (2 18”rs firing a few inches from your back) or the smoother FR in the 80-120hz region (I crossed the ulf subs rolling off at 50hz with a LPF and the MBMs with a 40hz HPF, and crossing the sub output with mains at 120hz) but I’m getting some chest thump now. It’s not true concert level thumping but definitely better than previously (more like chest/back slapping), even when playing the prior setup with unbalanced big boosts in the 60-120hz range where I would feel it in my ears but not my body. Most enjoyable combination since I set everything up - tested it out with John wick 2 this evening. Wow! Will be putting two MBMs behind the screen as well, though it’s probably a waste of time and money since 1) my FR is now extremely flat through 120hz (+/-2db), 2) I can hit sufficient spl without taxing the sub amps, 3) the MBMs are not audibly localizable behind me even at 120hz though you can feel them behind you in your back. That said, I’m building them because I eventually want to use them as true MBMs where I use the two behind the screen to make quasi 3-ways out of my L/R HTM12s. And more is better anyway, right? Curious if I can get more of the thump sensation in my chest vs my back when using two more up front, tbd..


Hi,
Did you get that Chest slam/ kick that you been looking for ?? Did the two PA460 do the trick ?




.
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post #96 of 113 Old 11-19-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by eXa View Post
Typical PA drivers have high efficiency and light cones. But most important in my opinion is low inductance.
Typical high xmax drivers are pretty opposite. Low efficiency, heavy cones and high inductance.
The latter just cant do the punchy bits the same way typical PA drivers can.
I agree.
Basically: A lambo tracks green lights better than an 18 wheeler does (even if both were limited to a top-speed of 60.)

By the time you finish blinking Bruce Lee has hit each your ball, 10 times...

In the far field, I think it is 100% SPL-based, regardless of the box-type.

Ported and Horned boxes are WELL KNOWN for having lower distortion, higher efficiency and higher output in their passband for a given SPL level vs sealed/IB.

That said, body vibs ARE a real thing. Each person is different based on bone size, mass and muscle density.

In the nearfield you also have port wind, which adds to the perceived effect, as does the decreased distance. More energy-density basically (which transfers directly into the chair/you.)

If polarity inversion improves it, then you just prefer a different set of room-nulls/modes for your body type/chair type. There is nothing else inherently-improved by playing with the phase. Exciting a room peak vs cone time-alignment etc. Potentially exciting the floor vibs at different frequencies also.

Nothing magical happening here.

Bass is pretty much a function of total cone-area.
The more, the better...
Doesn't matter what the frequency is, throw enough cones and horses at the problem and it will be solved eventually.
Just a matter of money/space/breakers...

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post #97 of 113 Old 11-24-2019, 03:49 AM
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I agree.
Basically: A lambo tracks green lights better than an 18 wheeler does (even if both were limited to a top-speed of 60.)

By the time you finish blinking Bruce Lee has hit each your ball, 10 times...

In the far field, I think it is 100% SPL-based, regardless of the box-type.

Hi,
What do you think of the below information about Chest slam

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post #98 of 113 Old 11-24-2019, 07:47 AM
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Hi,
What do you think of the below information about Chest slam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afy10voc5kc
It's funny that he's giving DIYsoundgroup the gears about having poorly designed speakers....
The reason people we're adding the mbm is to take off the load on the mains.

There is a specific design goal, they are made to be run with subs.... All the designs if I'm not mistaken.

The mbm was giving people what they were missing, more spl in the 40/50 to 100hz range. They are cheap, efficient and do the job very well. Whether or not the system had issues before is kinda moot, since it generally, it wasn't capable enough to produce the spl needed in the first place, to get what the person was after.

I've had a crap ton of subs, Ive had every design you can have, in every position. No matter what, NF ALWAYS has the best feel (as far as slam is concerned) you can have (like I do now)

a massive amount of subs up front, and it will never be the same as NF. Those subs up front used to be NF in my last room and I miss is terribly. It's still easily over 140dB if I want it to but the feel isn't there.... So I'm building 2 of Ricci's SKrams for NF to fill my addiction lol. NF horns are just what the doctor ordered.
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@N8DOGG

That's an incredible looking setup you have! Would you care to describe it?

Thanks,

Dave
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post #100 of 113 Old 11-24-2019, 10:03 AM
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@N8DOGG

That's an incredible looking setup you have! Would you care to describe it?

Thanks,

Dave
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I finally got the room together after about a month and a half ago. Very happy with the results!
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post #101 of 113 Old 11-24-2019, 10:32 AM
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What do you think of the below information about Chest slam
Basically the summary of what he said was: fix the nulls and add a house curve, with a hint of adding beefier mains if you can.

This might work for people who listen quietly and/or with high WAF

It's just NOT practical to put the required amount of cones into LCR's.


I wanted to feel it in my chest, without a hint of distortion. That's the kind of fire power it takes.

I listen 15db above THX, so it took 16 PA-460's to keep up with my listening preference.
He mentioned in the video he listens at 15db below THX, which is 1000x less energetic (because db's aren't a linear scale system...)

For me it was never about reducing the load on my LCR's, they are capable of handling 2hz to 30khz as-is, and that's exactly how I run them. (I just wanted more, LOTS more! )

Mine are front corner-loaded, which helps boost the SPL and blend with the LCR's (my MBM's are time-aligned to the LCR's). Stealth deployment behind my fronts, you don't even notice they are there!
Would placing them behind me make them even louder and with less nulls? undoubtly...
I tried that with 4 of them and didn't like the sound of it nearfield. YMMV.
The middle of my room is a bit of a mid-bass blackhole, I had to use an overwhelming amount of force to get it resolved.

What I disagree with, is his test method. I'm not sure what his system has in it (probably just regular subs?), so it would have been much better to measure what was directly on the LFE track rather than his in-room response! Then we would know what is ACTUALLY on the disc.

<20hz is for earthquakes, pipe organs, BassILoveU, and such.

20-50hz is what I call "boomer bass", it's the meat and potatoes of the bass region (rap and dubstep, and other boomer styles of music).

50-300hz is what I'd call mid-bass which is where 99% of music and movie impacts are located.
In this region we are talking: dance/pop music, metal/rock, gun fire, explosions, drums and bass guitars, cellos, and jump surprise scares and chest-kick.

People vastly underestimate the amount of cone-area they need.

In 2009 I had 2 PA-460's, in 2012 4, and 2017 16.
I'm good now, that's more mid-bass than should be legal.
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post #102 of 113 Old 11-24-2019, 11:10 AM
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Hi,
What do you think of the below information about Chest slam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afy10voc5kc
Re-watch the video. He is ignoring the huge spikes at 120 HZ and above. They don't look as big because of his house curve, but they are sharp transients that equate to chest kick. To the eye, the graph looks impressive below 80 Hz. But looks are deceiving. Don't forget the fact that because of human hearing, we need an extra 10 dB in the subwoofer, just so it feels equal to the upper frequencies.

Back in the day of "Chest Kick" we had 15" mains and played music extremely loud. HT systems usually have 10" or less for mains, and are calibrated to movie reference, which is limited to only 105 dB peaks, compared to 120 dB typical in rock music.

If you want more chest kick, play larger mains, and play them louder.

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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
It's funny that he's giving DIYsoundgroup the gears about having poorly designed speakers....

The reason people we're adding the mbm is to take off the load on the mains.



There is a specific design goal, they are made to be run with subs.... All the designs if I'm not mistaken.



The mbm was giving people what they were missing, more spl in the 40/50 to 100hz range. They are cheap, efficient and do the job very well. Whether or not the system had issues before is kinda moot, since it generally, it wasn't capable enough to produce the spl needed in the first place, to get what the person was after.



I've had a crap ton of subs, Ive had every design you can have, in every position. No matter what, NF ALWAYS has the best feel (as far as slam is concerned) you can have (like I do now)



a massive amount of subs up front, and it will never be the same as NF. Those subs up front used to be NF in my last room and I miss is terribly. It's still easily over 140dB if I want it to but the feel isn't there.... So I'm building 2 of Ricci's SKrams for NF to fill my addiction lol. NF horns are just what the doctor ordered.
How close was your NF setup?

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How close was your NF setup?

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Real close lol

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Real close lol



That's awesome!

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Researchers have created a new method for removing kidney stones using sound
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Researchers have created a new method for removing kidney stones using sound

“Ultasonic lithotripsy,” the DIY kind
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Chest slam - a function of spl, distance from driver, or room size?

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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Real close lol


Orbit shifters VNF... did the couch leather fray like a worn flag?

SKRAM’s should be insane as well.

Chris

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post #109 of 113 Old 11-25-2019, 08:48 AM
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Orbit shifters VNF... did the couch leather fray like a worn flag?

SKRAM’s should be insane as well.

Chris
They were.... Excessive lol. The Rams should be fun, have all the wood cnc'd just need time to actually put them together. It's a low priority right now though.
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They were.... Excessive lol. The Rams should be fun, have all the wood cnc'd just need time to actually put them together. It's a low priority right now though.
What drivers are you going to use?
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post #111 of 113 Old 11-25-2019, 09:09 PM
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What drivers are you going to use?
21DS115. Ive had them for 2 months already lol.
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post #112 of 113 Old 11-26-2019, 08:50 AM
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21DS115. Ive had them for 2 months already lol.
Nice. Should be "adequate" for near field use.
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post #113 of 113 Old 11-26-2019, 09:03 AM
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Nice. Should be "adequate" for near field use.


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