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post #1 of 99 Old 09-24-2018, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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What would you do? DIY Hidden Sub Build $1-2k

First of all, you guys rock! I have been stalking your DIY articles on and off for years but have not tried my own until now.

PRETTY PLEASE ASSIST ME BY TELLING ME WHAT YOU WOULD DO WITH THIS SETUP (see photo) & MY WIFE APPROVED $1,000 to $2,000 HOME THEATER BUDGET OR BY ANSWERING ANY OF THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS: ( I DONT WANT TO SPEND 4 Weekends building a couple of MDF masterpieces around a turd idea)


1. Are there any differences besides sound deadening when considering a 16'x18'x9' closed Media Room VS an open floor plan 2 story 16'x18'X18' Media Room where sound bleeds all around into a 50'x50'x18' area?. (Both are seated listening areas 10 feet from the LCD) Will 75x7 watts even work for mids/tweets in this much space?


2. Are there a pair of medium cost 15 or 18 inch Home Theater subs with a lot of movement that do not need a lot of power but require a lot of box space or require special horn structure that will sound semi-close to a single super expensive 18" sub in a smaller enclosure with a super expensive amplifier at half power? (Meaning the sub(s) does not need to blow out windows but sound clean and deep, not hollow. I am not an audiophile so I am looking more for "close" to pro for a good price vs "the most accurate reproduction")


3. Would it be ok to use a powered DJ like setup for the Bass? For instance I can get a super great deal on a used Active 18inch Sub with the Amp already included (EV EKX-18), and then firmly secure the entire structure in the cavity behind the television down firing on one side or would this sound like poopoo, would it need a crossover?!? This would definitely be easier than building 2 in-wall custom MDF Super Strong Sub Structures.

------------

ALL Photos attached are of the space I am working with.




WARNING WARNING
<--------------(I don't expect you guys to read all this **** Below)------------>




WHAT IS IN MY MIND QUICK & DIRTY FROM 2.1 to 5.2:
-Current system is an older Onkyo TX-SR503 7x75 watts receiver but currently only using 2.1 into basic semi-decent 150 watt max G400 JBL Tower Speakers with a semi-decent sounding 8 inch Sony Active Sub.
-I REALLY REALLY want to keep everything hidden & try to keep the AMP by installing in-wall 75 watt 5 channel speakers (Maybe Polk?) replacing the decent sounding but too low JBL Towers & the Sony Sub with clean sounding (not hollow) large surface area Subwoofers since I have two huge cavities sitting beside the LCD. (See Before & After Photo, each cavity is 75" tall, 42" and 22" deep)
-I DO NOT WANT TO cut into the visible drywall unless it is for in wall speakers or ports since it has a complicated finish, it would be nice to have the subs down-firing since I can access the cavities from the lower cubby holes.
- 16' x 18' Two Story Living/Media room is at the center of wide open floor plan that is approximately 50' x 50' by 18' tall. I need help selecting the right equipment to maximize the 10 foot open floor plan listening distance. (Ear height is exactly 3 feet from the floor while seated)


5.1 Home Theater DIY Build Listed by Priority:
1. USE THE LARGE WALL CAVITY FOR SOME NEW LARGE SUB(S)/AMP(S)
2. Close or Matching 5.1 channel Clean Separated Sound with subsonic mild chest penetration but not so loud that 3 cul-de-sac neighbors hate me forever. I want to be able to turn it up every now and then for deep floor pounding, nose hair tickling frequencies. So Subs take precedence over mids and tweets.
3. We use Google Chromecast to listen to music too, so we would like it to be tight enough for her upbeat Pop and my Classic Rock as well as top ten R&B songs.
4. We would like to re-use old components where possible to push budget further unless it is 75% necessary to replace a component. (For instance I want to use the 7x75watt Onkyo Receiver, & perhaps even the cheap JBL G400 150 Watt max Tower Speakers but they are not mounted high enough so I need to see if they sound ok with the Bose 161 surround speakers.

Absolute Budget Requirements:
1. Center Speaker (in wall or mounted to go from 2.1 to 3.1)
2. Large Displacement Subwoofer(s) for DIY box build or ability to fit in
3. Standby Amplifier for new Subs^ (is it even possible to use the Onkyo 75x7 Amps unused 2 surround channels to push some low RMS subs or am I a dork nugget?)
4. Need 2 matching side L/R surround speakers to go from 3.1 to 5.1 (Would be nice to match center and L/R Front) Might also need to replace Cheap 150 watt max JBL Front speakers with matching in-wall front speakers mounted at correct listening height.
5. I already have a bajillion Cords and the ability to custom create low RCAs as well a **** ton of low gauge pure copper speaker wire.


Extraneous Information:
1. Current Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR503 - "75 watts x 7 channels into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.08% THD Dolby® Digital EX, DTS-ES® and Dolby Pro Logic® IIx decoding"
2. I have a pair of White Bose 161 Speakers I could use for the L/R 2 channel side surround - "Rated 50W IEC; compatible with amplifiers or receivers rated 10-100 watts per channel, rated 4-8 ohms"
3. Current JBL G400 Tower Speakers - "150 Watt Max" (DELETE or Consider removing from box and using a wall enclosure for front L/R but I need matching center and L/R side surround speakers)
1. Current active 8 inch Sony SA-WMS367 sub sounds decent but nothing to write home about. (REMOVING FROM EQUATION)
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Last edited by kagtha; 09-24-2018 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Correction
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post #2 of 99 Old 09-24-2018, 04:09 PM
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I don't see meeting all of your wants at once. In wall speakers are a possibility, though. I will mention that most small speakers with their poor directional characteristics is going to make intelligibility a problem. In a room with high ceilings and reflective surfaces, you need absorption and diffusion along with highly directional speakers in order to get a good direct sound to reflected sound ratio, IE: clarity.



Chest pounding, hair raising bass is going to do nothing for you other than attract unwanted attention from your neighbors, possibly the HOA and / or law enforcement. Proceed at your own risk.



Cheap and good are mutually exclusive when it comes to low frequency sound reproduction. If you can live with a higher F3, then pro sound drivers are going to be your best bet. Higher efficiency, though shorter xmax.



As an example for a sealed box, keeping cone area constant and the same SPL, each additional octave lower cone excursion quadruples. From 40 hz to 20 hz would require 4x the cone excursion, dropping it to 10 hz would require 16x the cone excursion compared to 40 hz.



Cone excursion calculator here: http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
A single 18" driver in a sealed box called upon to provide 121 dB @ 20 hz @ 1 m would require ~ 95 mm excursion one way, an impossibility. Dual 18's in a sealed box would require 47.5 mm one way excursion, or 95 mm p-p, also an impossibility.



For "live" levels, plan on at least 110 dB at the seats. Sitting ~ 3 meters away from your wall, you will lose about 9 dB from doubling the distance from your source. 110+9 = 119 [email protected] 1 m. You may gain 3 dB at 20 hz from boundary placement, lowering your requirement to about 116-117 dB at 1m.



Using the calculator, solving for number of drivers, plugging in [email protected] at 20 hz, results in ( 6 ) 18" drivers, keeping excursion to 10 mm one way, 20 mm p-p.



Even capping output at 110 dB @ the main listening position, which would be at least 11 dB below reference level with redirected bass, requires a lot of drivers and excursion. [ 6 18" drivers moving 10 mm one way or 20 mm p-p ]



To reduce the number of drivers and amplifier requirements I would suggest a ported enclosure. Ported enclosures require a high pass filter below tuning to protect the driver from over excursion. An amplifier with built in DSP would be best to integrate with the main speakers, providing for a high pass filter ( required ) and allowing equalization and delay functions.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #3 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 05:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow. @Micheal , I sincerely appreciate the time you took to read through all my gibberish.

I obviously bit off more than I could chew and came in with some unrealistic expectations.

Does everyone here have a huge left brain hemisphere? I am finding it difficult to commit the required amount of time to properly understand all of your response.

Please correct me if my laymen Greek decipher is incorrect but with my budget/area, my best route to invisible "ok" sound would be:

-Yes, it is ok to use the 75x7.1 Receiver for "decent" 5.2 surround in this area
-Match the 75 watts with 5 identical in-wall speakers and try to direct them to your normal seated position as well as possible
-Forget the space behind the front wall because it is too far from the listening position and install a couple 10 or 12 inch active subwoofers close to seated position. Orrrrr build a ported down firing enclosure on each side with a total of 2 18 inch subs with as much excursion as I can find in my budget with a high pass filter.

Just a thought: I also have a space under the staircase 4-5 feet to the left of the listening position that I could use. Would it sound ok if I were to place the Electrovoice EKX-18SP under there directed toward the sofa? I could open up an 18 inch hole in the sheetrock.

Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.
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post #4 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagtha View Post
Wow. @Micheal , I sincerely appreciate the time you took to read through all my gibberish.

I obviously bit off more than I could chew and came in with some unrealistic expectations.

Does everyone here have a huge left brain hemisphere? I am finding it difficult to commit the required amount of time to properly understand all of your response.

Please correct me if my laymen Greek decipher is incorrect but with my budget/area, my best route to invisible "ok" sound would be:

-Yes, it is ok to use the 75x7.1 Receiver for "decent" 5.2 surround in this area
-Match the 75 watts with 5 identical in-wall speakers and try to direct them to your normal seated position as well as possible
-Forget the space behind the front wall because it is too far from the listening position and install a couple 10 or 12 inch active subwoofers close to seated position. Orrrrr build a ported down firing enclosure on each side with a total of 2 18 inch subs with as much excursion as I can find in my budget with a high pass filter.

Just a thought: I also have a space under the staircase 4-5 feet to the left of the listening position that I could use. Would it sound ok if I were to place the Electrovoice EKX-18SP under there directed toward the sofa? I could open up an 18 inch hole in the sheetrock.

The difference between 75 watts per channel in an AV receiver and 100 watts is an insignificant 1.249 dB change, so to be very 'slightly' louder it would take 150 watts per channel. So, yes your 75 watts * if it will actually produce 75 watts with all channels driven * is fine.



If not matching all 5 main channels, at least match the front 3, most of the dialog comes from the center channel, but panning effects will require timbre ( sound ) matching between all 3 channels up front. Surrounds... less of a requirement in my opinion to match to the front, though if in your budget, make them match.



To downfire a driver requires that the moving mass and suspension compliance ( how stiff it is ) contribute to no more than 5% of the xmax of the driver. Heavy cone drivers and soft suspension end up like your aunt Sarah..... kinda like oranges in a sweat sock if you catch my drift.



Parts express has a downfire ( sag ) calculator to determine if a particular driver is suitable on their website.
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post #5 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 09:24 AM
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https://www.parts-express.com/resour...-mount-up-down

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #6 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 10:58 AM - Thread Starter
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@michael hurd , I have to admit that my right dominant brain is overwhelmed. I tried to calculate the sag allowance based on the Dayton Audio UM18*22 18" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer but failed to reveal if it is within the 5% Xmax allowance. (I cannot post links to parameters yet, sorry for the inconvenience)

I have learned a great deal in a little amount of time thanks to you. I also appreciate your recent laymen response. I certainly should have done my homework before splatter-caking a question on here, for that I apologize.

I will plan on a 110 or 120 dp reference point and since I can do whatever I want with the front wall, I think I am going to purchase 3 good (not in-wall) matching drivers to internally mount at proper heights for the front 3 and either buy more identical speakers for the surround drivers or dry fit random surround speakers I have laying around (Bose cubes, Bose 161s, cheaper Sony surrounds ) until I find a pair that feels right with the 75x7 Onkyo Receiver. (TX-SR503)

As far as the subwoofer(s)(the reason I started this thread) is concerned, I now understand the impact of properly directing the surface of the driver towards the listener so I am going to invest some proper time to learn a bit more about the AVS world hopefully allowing me to select an affordable but reliable subwoofer/amp/high pass combination.

Optimistically, I pray I will find a thread here as a foundation or guide to start my custom enclosure build for my new scenario below:

[$1k to $1.6k Subwoofer/Amp budget]
I would like a recommendation for a forward facing sub/enclosure combination that sounds the best(and punches you in the chest) from my lower left & right forward facing cubby holes These already exposed cubby holes are covered with white speaker mesh(see original photos uploaded) measuring in at 26" deep x 26" high x 40" wide not including the ability to extend the 26" height by crafting upwards into the hidden area. (Required enclosure cut-outs - I hope to be able to keep some space in each cubby hole for random hardware like a wifi router and small UPS backup in the left one, and a receiver and sub amps/crossovers/extra HDMI cables, Ethernet switch, etc. in the right one)

Thanks again for not trolling my original post. I know it was not easy.

Last edited by kagtha; 09-25-2018 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Correction to make it easier to read
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post #7 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 12:27 PM
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1. You are correct that several here like Michael H are brillant but dont let the technical talk get you confused. Ask a laymans question you will get a good laymans answer.

2. His comments about treating the room should be HEARD and considered. Corner bass traps and some wall panels will make a good room great imo. If you buy them we are talking $100 each for bass traps and at least $60 for thinner panels. DIY is 1/3 that cost and not difficult. 4 bass traps and 4 or 6 wall panels will go a long way. Buy them then maybe 600 to 900, build them for 200 to 300.

3. A closed room is ideal for a theater if treated (see #2 above). You will have stronger, deeper bass with less subs. However if you refuse to treat the room, then an open room may work better for you but is completely dependent on the room.

4. diysoundgroup.com is a "sold at cost" site built by an avsforum member and their kits utilize a brillant research model pioneered by jbl, also utilized by Klipsch-- waveguides that control directivity. These are superior designs and what MH is mentioning in saying so many other speaker designs are lacking. Fusion 8s are a few hundred each....htms are more in the 300 range. Realize these are up for sale in this classified section and will save you time and money if you wont build. There are even 1099s up for sale, overkill for you but wonderful designs.

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-t...-monitors.html

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-t...r-fusions.html

5. If some bigger boxes are OK....i.e. at least 4cft and preferably 8 to 12cft, the Martysubs utilizing Dayton or SI drivers are proven monsters with deep extension. Build them for cost of materials....or again keep an eye out and buy used. See: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...tysub-faq.html

Some of these are also for sale. Unless you enjoy building you will save finding used versions of everything.
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post #8 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 01:51 PM
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@ kagatha... the only 'stupid' question is one not asked.



Regarding the dayton Ultimax 18-22 suitability for down / upfire: I get 2.97%, so it would be suitable for downfire use.
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post #9 of 99 Old 09-25-2018, 07:52 PM
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kagtha, I would tend to discourage you from purchasing the EV subwoofer, while it will likely get loud, it is optimized for that only. If you have space under the stairway 4 or 5 feet away, that would work, though with small main speakers and a high crossover point, you may experience localization ( being able to pinpoint the source of sound ) to your under stairs sub.



If you can borrow it to experiment, great, try it out near the stairs and see what you get. Your Onkyo will have a low pass filter on it's subwoofer output, so no additional crossover needed to try it out.



You can get decent results with more small drivers, compared to a larger, high cost unit, but the construction complexity, weight and wiring ( amount of connections ) goes up as well. Small drivers typically have smaller spider mounting platforms, and thus have less excursion headroom, but that is a generalization. A 2" voice coil with a 7" spider is going to have more excursion capability than a 4" coil and an 8" spider. ( there are always exceptions to generalizations )



A well engineered popular solution that uses a single 18" pro driver is called the Value Buster Subwoofer System. ( V.B.S.S. ) High pass filter settings are given in the thread for the VBSS to be entered into a Behringer iNuke DSP equipped amplifier. These have been recently replaced with the NX series.
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Struggling with options for in-wall speakers that provide enough Vd for even 80 hz is tough. Dual 5.25" woofers per speaker, keeping cone excursion under 6 mm one way will do 105 [email protected] 1m, this is going to be 96 dB @ the seating area.



Something like this, oriented vertically x 3. ( woofers top and bottom ) https://www.crutchfield.com/p_970IWD...IW-DC51-W.html


The Focal may hold pattern control on the tweeter a bit lower in frequency, but there is no mention of it's design horizontal dispersion. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_0911HW...0-IW-LCR5.html


Another option, with 6 1/2" woofers: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_107265...io-265-RT.html



Even a sealed box with a 12" woofer would require half the excursion than dual 5.25" woofers for the same output at 80 hz. For comparable money.... the HTM 12 will sound much cleaner with less distortion, and pattern control to boot.



https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-t...tm-12-kit.html
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@michael Once again thanks for going above and beyond.

After testing various groups of speakers, I concluded that 3 matching front speakers are required to discern clear dialog.

The HTM-12 reviews are the best I have ever read. I really really want to go that way but it is impossible to keep the "architectural" look when the LCD is above a fireplace. See photo. I could consider a longer shallower custom box placing the horn to the side to fit in the non-load bearing wall but there is just not enough room to look nice between the LCD and fireplace. (A center speaker no wider than 10 inches would be preferred aesthetic wise) Plus I could not find anywhere online that would create custom aluminum magnetic grills to order that does not cost more than a good in-wall speaker like you suggested. Quick stupid question. I would not need a separate large driver for Bass if I had these or would I?

I want to try my best not to affect home resell value or make it easy to repair so I love your recommendation of the ELAC IW-DC51-W but does the center speaker really need to be vertical?? And since they will not be directed at the perfect angle should they not have adjustable tweeters? I am also considering a single MartinLogan Motion SLM X3 or a combination of 2 Motion SLMs with a Motion SLM XL for the center. I worry a bit because I do not see much information out there about these but absolutely love their design and the fact you can remove the logo if you want.
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Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.
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@kagtha



While the ideal solution may not meet your aesthetic goals, there are other options. You could run without a center channel, instead telling your AVR to use 'phantom' mode by selecting 'none' for center speaker. Page 32 of the manual: https://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads...3_manual_e.pdf


The most ideal solution is to use 3 matching speakers, and yes, it will be best if an MTM is used in the vertical configuration to mitigate lobing issues with it being horizontal. Yes, it would be ideal if they could be tilted down towards the listening position. Otherwise, they should be mounted so the tweeter is on axis.
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If you have 13" for the horizontal, the 1099 would fit

It is a 3-way with the horn and mids aligned verticallly with the bass drivers flanking on the sides. It is about the best you will get for a center configuration so I would go in that direction. Get the matching 1099 but in vertical format with the horn/mids vertical with the two 10" woofers.

The 1099 is very, very efficient--more efficient than the HTM-12 so a 75 watt receiver should get your ears ringing if you let it.

Good luck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
I don't see meeting all of your wants at once. In wall speakers are a possibility, though. I will mention that most small speakers with their poor directional characteristics is going to make intelligibility a problem. In a room with high ceilings and reflective surfaces, you need absorption and diffusion along with highly directional speakers in order to get a good direct sound to reflected sound ratio, IE: clarity.



Chest pounding, hair raising bass is going to do nothing for you other than attract unwanted attention from your neighbors, possibly the HOA and / or law enforcement. Proceed at your own risk.



Cheap and good are mutually exclusive when it comes to low frequency sound reproduction. If you can live with a higher F3, then pro sound drivers are going to be your best bet. Higher efficiency, though shorter xmax.



As an example for a sealed box, keeping cone area constant and the same SPL, each additional octave lower cone excursion quadruples. From 40 hz to 20 hz would require 4x the cone excursion, dropping it to 10 hz would require 16x the cone excursion compared to 40 hz.



Cone excursion calculator here: http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html
A single 18" driver in a sealed box called upon to provide 121 dB @ 20 hz @ 1 m would require ~ 95 mm excursion one way, an impossibility. Dual 18's in a sealed box would require 47.5 mm one way excursion, or 95 mm p-p, also an impossibility.



For "live" levels, plan on at least 110 dB at the seats. Sitting ~ 3 meters away from your wall, you will lose about 9 dB from doubling the distance from your source. 110+9 = 119 [email protected] 1 m. You may gain 3 dB at 20 hz from boundary placement, lowering your requirement to about 116-117 dB at 1m.



Using the calculator, solving for number of drivers, plugging in [email protected] at 20 hz, results in ( 6 ) 18" drivers, keeping excursion to 10 mm one way, 20 mm p-p.



Even capping output at 110 dB @ the main listening position, which would be at least 11 dB below reference level with redirected bass, requires a lot of drivers and excursion. [ 6 18" drivers moving 10 mm one way or 20 mm p-p ]



To reduce the number of drivers and amplifier requirements I would suggest a ported enclosure. Ported enclosures require a high pass filter below tuning to protect the driver from over excursion. An amplifier with built in DSP would be best to integrate with the main speakers, providing for a high pass filter ( required ) and allowing equalization and delay functions.
Klipsch in-walls may fit the bill well here. Pro ones like pro250rpw LCR are right in the ballpark at about 300 a piece. Klipsch does a good job of directivity and the newer tweeter designs are terrific imo.
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post #15 of 99 Old 09-27-2018, 06:54 PM
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or am I a dork nugget?
I must strongly concur, this is most certainly dork-nugget territory...

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1. Are there any differences besides sound deadening when considering a 16'x18'x9' closed Media Room VS an open floor plan 2 story 16'x18'X18' Media Room where sound bleeds all around into a 50'x50'x18' area?
First off that's 100,000cuft
Good luck pressurizing that...
and even if you did, the cops would wonder where the tsar bomba is...

Second of all, 16x18x18 is almost a perfect cube, which is 'almost' the worst-possible shape for sound quality. Add to that all the bare drywall and hardwood flooring and hard objects in the room, and high-WAF, this will not end well...

Basically you need to throw this house out, and build a dedicated sound room / bunker.

75w is enough if using 100db/w/m speakers.

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would require 47.5 mm one way excursion, or 95 mm p-p, also an impossibility.
Not impossible...

https://www.parts-express.com/re-aud...-ohm--268-8154

https://stereointegrity.com/product/shs24-24-subwoofer/

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post #16 of 99 Old 09-27-2018, 07:12 PM
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Impossible on his $ 1-2K budget.
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #17 of 99 Old 09-29-2018, 07:46 AM
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Impossible on his $ 1-2K budget.
$23 x3
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/speake...waveguide.html

$79.50 x3
https://www.diysoundgroup.com/speake...n-drivers.html

Maybe slightly less if bundled-pricing.

$65 x3
https://www.parts-express.com/celest...-ohm--299-2370

+

2-way XO's x3

Buying a used RE-18 and FP14k would save lots as well.

Fitting this where he wants it to go, would be the hardest part of it all...

Some compromises or saving-up for a touch longer may be required.
Might be easier to pay a carpenter to hide the subwoofer as a coffee table.
If the WAF-ratio gets too high then the project will have to be cancelled I guess.

Since 90% of bass is above 30hz, it might make more sense to go with pro-woofers:
They are more power-efficient and cheaper (and louder mid-bass chest-kick.)
https://www.parts-express.com/bc-18p...oofer--294-675
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton...oofer--295-036

Some compromises may have to be made, chasing 1hz gets expensive, fast...

The lower the frequency, the more-rare it is to find it in any given movie/music, say 0-5seconds of bass in a 3 hour long action/horror movie. Ain't gonna find no 1-20hz in a comedy or chick-flic.

50hz to 20khz doesn't need much excursion.
But 1-20hz sure does... it's exactly like futilely chasing the end of a rainbow, trying to achieve sufficient-displacement for a 0-5 second movie-effect found in only 10% of all action-movies ever made...
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post #18 of 99 Old 10-01-2018, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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@All I am sorry but I am over-whelmed with all this new information. I added a photo so you could see the rear.

I apologize especially to @Michael- hurd for copping out but if you care I am going to drop the DIY and save it for our smaller bedroom with a better starting point.

For a quick fix ($750 total for used equipment) for this highly reflective, hard to pressurize room I am just going to purchase a second-hand MartinLogan MLT-2 system that includes 5 decent surround speakers I heard at Best Buy last night. (I might also spring for the MartinLogan Motion SLM for the center if I am not happy with the dialog) But I am also going to pick up a local used Electro Voice EKX18-SP in the morning because it fits perfectly in the front cabinet. I might spring for another one but I doubt I will need it once I compare it to my current listening environment. (Mount the center in the un-used fireplace as high as possible, mount the Front L/R in the top left in the left cubby, and top right in the right cubby, and mount the two surround speakers above the rear door on the rear left and above the right kitchen opening rear right. Adjusting for added amplifier decibels depending on the extra distance. Does that sound like it will do ok? Are bass shakers stupid to add or would it be better to make long shallow custom active subs out of the two active 8" subs I have now and direct them towards the listeners booty for a little extra butt love. Well I hope so because I am saving the DIY for the bedroom for some year in the future.

Thanks again everyone, I learned quite a bit in a little amount of time. I am especially keen to the 1099s, they look beastly and have nothing but amazing reviews and I think it is completely awesome you can use them as a matching center. But for now I do not have the time to enter this amazing domain. BUT I WILL BE BACK!
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Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.
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post #19 of 99 Old 10-01-2018, 10:01 PM
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@All I am sorry but I am over-whelmed with all this new information. I added a photo so you could see the rear.
Ah, nice rear! er...wait...

Quote:
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But I am also going to pick up a local used Electro Voice EKX18-SP in the morning because it fits perfectly in the front cabinet....Are bass shakers stupid to add or would it be better to make long shallow custom active subs out of the two active 8" subs I have now and direct them towards the listeners booty for a little extra butt love.
As an engineer I have a lot of respect for EV. Understand, however, that is a DJ piece, not a theater piece. Response is rated just down to 40 which is NOT special effects territory. How cheap IS it? Because we can quite possibly help you with simple mods to theatre-ize it (maybe plug or reduce the ports, maybe internal stuffing, would need a bit of research but certainly possible.

Bass shakers are great IF adjusted properly. That is, not cranked up so they just vibrate all the time. Not sure you'd need it with the EV, though in a way it might fill in the low effects. Don't mess with subs under the couch=power cords=messy=unhappy wife=unhappy life. And you won't like it either. Hmm, actually maybe that applies to bass shakers as well.

I also admire Martin-Logan, but I'll warn that small little speakers are limited to physics to how "big" of a sound they can manage. No way that set will keep up with the 134 decibel E-V if you're worried about that.

Whatever you put in the wall up front, don't put it too close to the TV which you will eventually want to make bigger. You will. You know you will

On the right side, maybe you could change the curtains to make them wider, so they would extend all the way to the wall. Then you could hide acoustic foam behind, to cut the reflections from that side, because if you go in-wall you can't toe in the speakers (and even an aimable tweeter won't be enough.

To me, the huge hidden space cries out for like big horn systems and damn the center channel. Could be crude and hidden behind scrim cloth. If you don't want to totally DIY, Parts Express and I think also DIYsoundgroup have flat pack kits available. Efficient kits with horn mid/tweets need a lot less power and your Onkyo will be fine. Small tiny speakers, maybe not so much, and a bigger amp won't really help.

Or, simply get a set of aesthetically pretty speakers-probably eat a lot of your budget or more though; nice towers are expensive. A friend plays Focal 936s from a Denon 2312Ci and it can play quite loud.


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...a little extra butt love.
Good luck with that!
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post #20 of 99 Old 10-02-2018, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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@head_unit Seriously?!! You made read https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ld-you-go.html which makes me second guess my cop out. And then I a received a message from the Cadillac CTS forum from another person wanting help with a shallow stealth sub install. (see attached photo of my build, I built this about a year ago and I will never forget the amazing sense of accomplishment I felt)

So now you have me doubting the BASS-ONLY AMP with DSP Electro Voice 18 inch Subwoofer EKX-18SP I can get this morning for $500 used but in good shape according to the seller. (Attached you can see the HZ chart, I am not sure if this is where you found out that it cannot produce chest pounding Hz?!) It is hard for me to believe that this sub would not pound hard as heck and sound decent for movies especially directed at the listeners.

I mean how much would I gain from a somewhat Cheap Dual 18 inch DIY enclosures in the same areas? For instance What if I made an enclosure for the following:
2 Count - Dayton Audio PN470-8 18" NEO Series Pro Woofers (Oddly the cheaper Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer has 20 Hz bottom vs the Neos 30 hz bottom, is this important?)
1 Count - Behringer NX6000D Power Amplifier with DSP (or maybe the Behringer NX3000D Power Amplifier with DSP, it is hard to tell what the RMS Wattage is on these)

Also does anyone know how to search the classifieds section in this forum? On wanted to search for 1099s, or Nuke Amps, or Dayton Subs.

Last but not least do these DIY jobs ever come back in stock? https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-t...sive-1099.html Or is there another source for the 1099s or Volt-6s or 8s?

Ok I think I talked myself into passing up on the EKX 18 today to hear what you guys have to say. I hate myself for being wishy washy on this!!
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Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.
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Chill and dont buy anything. You know you want a good system and are wavering if it's worth the work. Wait until your mind settles trust me everybody has been here.

Yes DIY subs will crush your EV sub and yes you are missing a lot...basically everything with a sub that plays down to 40hz. Why spend so much you can buy 4 used small subs capable of 40....almost any sub. The point is a 40hz pro sub is de designed for large room or outdoor use....this why 40hz is the cutoff, below there has little value in a pro setting without a ton of subs.

It is worth piecing together a great system vs buying something easy to install.

Dont build anything... buy it all used including subs.
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post #22 of 99 Old 10-02-2018, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
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Attached you can see the HZ chart, I am not sure if this is where you found out that it cannot produce chest pounding Hz?!
Actually, the manufacturer's spec, which is -3 dB at 40 Hz. The chart shows that response is way down at 20 Hz, and while I'd hardly consider myself and expert on how much bass is how low in what movie (there's a thread somewhere and a database for that), there is definitely significant content below 40 Hz. The EV looks like a monster for DJ work, and not designed at all for theater. Now for $500 could you plug the ports and still play super loud and at a better value than other solutions...good question.
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post #23 of 99 Old 10-02-2018, 06:07 PM
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your space isnt that huge and 2 subs should put a smile on your face...2xjtr2400 or 2xrythmikfv25hp should get you 90% there

Power: Marantz sr7008, NAD C 275Bee x 2, Video: Oppo 103, Samsung 75un6300
Speakers: Focal aria 948, Focal cc900, Klipsch synergy KSF 10.5, Magnepan LRS
Subs: Rythmik FV25HP, Rythmik FV15HP
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post #24 of 99 Old 10-02-2018, 06:21 PM
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to search the classifieds :

to to the "Audio Gear" section of the classifieds.... click on that.... see the black background "post new thread" tab... look right... see the page counter.... right below that is a "search this forum'' tab. click that, and put in '1099'. I recall two different threads offering 1099's (somewhat) recently... one was finished in a stunning white, with white grill covers. I have no idea if either is still available. Good luck.

Joseph

edited for speeling

mods, can we have a 'dislike' button ?

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post #25 of 99 Old 10-02-2018, 07:14 PM
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Just for giggles, I decided to calculate how much power the RE XXX18 would take to hit 47.5 mm in free-air. Used the parameters from here: http://reaudio.com/THIELESPDF/xxx18v2_info%20(1).pdf


Note the RE audio pdf shows that Fs is 28.93 hz, different from the Parts Express webpage, about an octave higher.



Suspension compliance is very low: 42.9729 uM/N. ( 0.042973 mm/N )

47.5mm/0.042973 = 1105.345N !!!!

Bl = 17.3291 Newtons per ampere.

1105.345/17.3291 = 63.785 amps of current. Zmax is 14.5574 ohms.



At just above it's free air resonance, say into 10 ohm impedance it would take some 40KW ( yes, 40,000 watts ) of power to hit your 47.5 mm of excursion. And that's with no box....



Even 63.785 amps into a 4 ohm impedance is still going to be 16+ KW. Granted this is 'apparent power' but still.... magic pixies FTW!

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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Thank you!
Quote:
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your space isnt that huge and 2 subs should put a smile on your face...2xjtr2400 or 2xrythmikfv25hp should get you 90% there
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Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.
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Thanks for making me wait @RoboAVS

I took the extra initiative and listened to a bunch of different center speakers at Best Buy to see which brand or product allowed me to here dialogue clearly. The expensive BWs of course was in the top 3 but what was surprising to me was that the lowest cost MartinLogans sounded much better dialogue wise to me. I especially dislike the sound of the electromagnetic speakers.

So instead of dropping $1200 for the set there, I just received like new condition MartinLogan's MLT-2 5.1 surround (Rated at 0-100 Watts with 1 inch dome tweeters) set for a whopping $240 delivered and OMG!!! It has completely changed the movie experience. I know you guys are on a whole different level but I am still in pure awe of how great it sounds compared to the mismatch fudge fest I had going. The 120 watt RMS (Down to 35 Hz)10" Dynamo active sub matches my 10" Sony active sub nicely. And since @michael hurd dropped a knowledge bomb on me, I was smart enough to place bot front firing subs next to each Front Left & Right Speaker with a slight tilt to face the listener. My 75 Watt RMS Onkyo Receiver seems to match the speakers perfectly, I honestly cannot imagine listening to anything higher than 75% volume. Once I added the distances I was in complete awe that $240 could go so far. I think the trick for me was finally getting matching center/front speakers.

So thank you @head_unit for making me hold my **** on that DJ equipment that would have sounded like ****, I now want to replace the two active 10s with something DIY that could almost hit me in the chest for around 1 or 1.5k including 3/4 MDF, drivers, wires, RCA LFE splitter, terminals, crossovers, DSP amp(s). If I can do it for less my wife would be even happier cause she doesn't think we need it now that those 2 subs vibrate the entire floor and walls. I need morrrre!

Photo shows quick setup, but rear speakers will ultimately be mounted high with distance/+db increased. The center will be mounted in the top of the unused fireplace, I need to figure out how to put some black speaker mesh around that top rectangle. (I already moved the black grill to the bottom, it looks sort of stupid but if I do not keep it there it will get lost forever.

@torii I am not sure why I thanked you. Those speakers you suggested are waaaay out of my budget.

Thank you for making the classifieds search easy to find @wlhungdude ! I will see what I can find to fill my itch for a large cheap DIY down low sub combo. Or maybe I should just buy another MLT-2 set to replace the Bose Acoustimass 6 system in my bedroom and use the other active sub to match the one down stairs. It is hard for me to listen in my bedroom now, I had no idea how many ear piercing sounds I was missing.

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post #28 of 99 Old 10-04-2018, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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HOLY CRAPOLA - I am having serious issues following some of your calculations @MichaelH urd

I mean in my mind I am wondering if I could mismatch Subs to get 2 distinct sounds, like 4 total Drivers, a 10" sealed for tighter scenes next to an 18" ported for deep rumble scenes?! Or would they compete and sound like poo poo kind of like I had a different center than Left and Rights?

You said something similar to "Cone Excursion is more important than listed XMAX"
If i were to just look for a longer stroke is that even important? I mean obviously the larger the surface area that moves is better, how much it is allowed to move before blowing is important (xmax right?), what else should I look for if I cannot really figure out the formulas


@RoboAVS you said bigger boxes are better, what do you think I should do with approx 38x40 surface space on each side with a large footprint of available box room? (Get 4 cheap 18s? or 2 10's and 2 15s?, or more expensive 12's with a higher rms watt dsp amp? )

Each side of the proposed cubby hole can hold a 13 Cubic Foot enclosure, but I recently demoed the tops out so I could take advantage of 32 more Cubic feet [45 cubic feet per side total, I can stand up inside the cubby holes] I could even build into the center portion behind the LCD if that's not enough but I honestly am not even sure how I am going to put the enclosure together above the cubby holes without cutting the wall open first.

@anyone
What specs are the most important for physically feeling some low wavesforms?
Does the "FS" Resonant Frequency Spec reveal the lowest Hz a Sub will go? The Dayton Audio DCS450-4 18" Classic Subwoofer 4 Ohm lists 22 to 500 Hz under "Frequency Response, so does that mean a $125 Sub is better at making you physically feel the bass than ones listed at 50 Hz to 500 Hz ?

Bedroom Audio: Two Shallow Under Bed PA310-8 12's energized by an SPA250DSP Plate Amp. Two BST-1s. 75 Watt 7.1 Onkyo AVR with Five Martin Logan MLT-2 LCR & Surrounds.
Living Room Audio: One Behringer NX6000D flexing four PA460-8's in a contemporary VBSS credenza build, 100 Watt 5.1 Sony AVR zapping Three horizontal Elusive 1099s LCRs and Two Martin Logan MLT-2 Surrounds. Two BST-1 Bass Shakers charged by the MLT-2 Sub Amp.
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post #29 of 99 Old 10-04-2018, 01:40 PM
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Wow congrats on the new speakers!

For subs bigger boxes means deeper bass and or less power needed
budget and ability to build are the only limits

A simple reasonable goal is a couple full marty subs
A larger more impressive option is a sub array or infinite baffle

horns are popular in corner locations and are nice ROI
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post #30 of 99 Old 10-04-2018, 02:18 PM
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Much great advice already given.



@anyone
What specs are the most important for physically feeling some low wavesforms? [/QUOTE]

Proximity, SPLdB, and floor construction.

Also, be mindful that oftentimes the visceral LF isn't as low in frequency as many subjectively think.


I'd recommend not performing a deep dive on driver specs at this point. There are more important elements in what you're facing. I'd utilize the typical best practices, some of which mentioned above. That said, I would view the entire system/room as a whole, with a heavy emphasis on DIY acoustic treatment and damping of LF decay times.

IMO, such an approach is a performance multiplier like nothing else.
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