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post #631 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 07:51 AM
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Here is a side picture behind Jeremy’s screen and how he constructed his screen. Velcro at the bottom to hold the screen



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post #632 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
If you get a miniDSP get the balanced 2x4, not the unbalanced or the HD model.
Interesting. Can you elaborate on why? I am generally curious as I've seen nothing but suggestions to get the HD because it can do more delay per channel, and something about applying filters sub 20hz a LOT better than the 2x4 Balanced....

I got the balanced 2x4, but like I said, I've seen quite a few people saying the HD is the model to get now, you just have to hope that your RCA to XLR converter cables (if you need them) dont add noise.

Only caveat to the HD is that is can only output 2VRMS, but can accept either 2VRMS or 4VRMS (jumper settings). Most amps lately have adjustable sensitivity so it might not be an issue.

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post #633 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Interesting. Can you elaborate on why? I am generally curious as I've seen nothing but suggestions to get the HD because it can do more delay per channel, and something about applying filters sub 20hz a LOT better than the 2x4 Balanced....

I got the balanced 2x4, but like I said, I've seen quite a few people saying the HD is the model to get now, you just have to hope that your RCA to XLR converter cables (if you need them) dont add noise.

Only caveat to the HD is that is can only output 2VRMS, but can accept either 2VRMS or 4VRMS (jumper settings). Most amps lately have adjustable sensitivity so it might not be an issue.
The HD model's 96kHz sampling rate causes overshoot with "steep" low frequency filters. So, if you're trying to make a 4th order 10Hz high pass you end up with an unintended ~5dB boost at ~12Hz. Unless something dramatically changed in the last few years the HD is much worse with filters sub 20Hz than the 2x4 balanced.

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post #634 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The HD model's 96kHz sampling rate causes overshoot with "steep" low frequency filters. So, if you're trying to make a 4th order 10Hz high pass you end up with an unintended ~5dB boost at ~12Hz. Unless something dramatically changed in the last few years the HD is much worse with filters sub 20Hz than the 2x4 balanced.

See this: https://i.imgur.com/5SMAxEF.png
That would be a pretty rare situation. Not too many people building LLT's that need 10Hz hpf. Also, if you take into consideration the usual signal chain roll-off of most equipment down that low, the boost may actually be helpful.

Once set up properly, I havent had issues with my 2x4 HD. Only thing I use it for is a 17Hz hpf.
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post #635 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
That would be a pretty rare situation. Not too many people building LLT's that need 10Hz hpf. Also, if you take into consideration the usual signal chain roll-off of most equipment down that low, the boost may actually be helpful.



Once set up properly, I havent had issues with my 2x4 HD. Only thing I use it for is a 17Hz hpf.


I love my 2X4 hd. Once I figured out my gain structure. I use my high pass at 15hz, and add delay for the rear subs and nearfield. The WiFi is awesome too.
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post #636 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
That would be a pretty rare situation. Not too many people building LLT's that need 10Hz hpf. Also, if you take into consideration the usual signal chain roll-off of most equipment down that low, the boost may actually be helpful.

Once set up properly, I havent had issues with my 2x4 HD. Only thing I use it for is a 17Hz hpf.
It affects every filter in that range. Not just a high pass filter so it's not at all rare. Unless something has changed in the last few years the balanced 2x4 is a better subwoofer EQ. That doesn't mean the 2x4 HD can't work, but it's less suited for the task. Heck, the 2x4 balanced isn't that well suited for the task and it's the best of them (AFAIK). Unfortunately, I don't know of a better product out there if you want sub 20Hz EQ capability. Otherwise the QSC DSP-30 is a vastly superior and more capable sub EQ without all the gotchas and lurking pitfalls.
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post #637 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The HD model's 96kHz sampling rate causes overshoot with "steep" low frequency filters. So, if you're trying to make a 4th order 10Hz high pass you end up with an unintended ~5dB boost at ~12Hz. Unless something dramatically changed in the last few years the HD is much worse with filters sub 20Hz than the 2x4 balanced.

See this: https://i.imgur.com/5SMAxEF.png
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
That would be a pretty rare situation. Not too many people building LLT's that need 10Hz hpf. Also, if you take into consideration the usual signal chain roll-off of most equipment down that low, the boost may actually be helpful.

Once set up properly, I havent had issues with my 2x4 HD. Only thing I use it for is a 17Hz hpf.
Awesome info. Thanks for that. Still wish I could add more delay than 7ms on the 2x4 balanced . Otherwise happy with what I've got for now. We will see what happens once I add my other 3 subs in the mix.

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I love my 2X4 hd. Once I figured out my gain structure. I use my high pass at 15hz, and add delay for the rear subs and nearfield. The WiFi is awesome too.
Yeah, I'm gonna be adding this puppy to my custom DIY enclosure for that reason. Also going to add this at the same time.....

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post #638 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:09 AM
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They RAVE about the 2x4hd over in the BEQ thread. Would love to hear their opinions!

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post #639 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
It affects every filter in that range. Not just a high pass filter so it's not at all rare. Unless something has changed in the last few years the balanced 2x4 is a better subwoofer EQ. That doesn't mean the 2x4 HD can't work, but it's less suited for the task. Heck, the 2x4 balanced isn't that well suited for the task and it's the best of them (AFAIK). Unfortunately, I don't know of a better product out there if you want sub 20Hz EQ capability. Otherwise the QSC DSP-30 is a vastly superior and more capable sub EQ without all the gotchas and lurking pitfalls.

All filters or not, I can’t see a situation where it would be an issue in actual use especially if you are taking measurements which, if your fooling around with filters down there, I would assume you are doing.


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post #640 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The HD model's 96kHz sampling rate causes overshoot with "steep" low frequency filters. So, if you're trying to make a 4th order 10Hz high pass you end up with an unintended ~5dB boost at ~12Hz. Unless something dramatically changed in the last few years the HD is much worse with filters sub 20Hz than the 2x4 balanced.



See this: https://i.imgur.com/5SMAxEF.png


Was this taken by you with each different 2/4 tested to make sure that’s really happening or someone else?
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post #641 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:34 AM
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All filters or not, I can’t see a situation where it would be an issue in actual use especially if you are taking measurements which, if your fooling around with filters down there, I would assume you are doing.
What do you mean? The filters don't work as expected. They cause unexpected and incorrect boosts of frequencies around the filter. They have the likely potential to wreak havoc. You can't just load your auto-generated biquads from REW and paste them in and get the intended results. Further, how do you fix the unintended overshoot? With another filter that causes even more overshoot? Where's the easy fix?
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post #642 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:36 AM
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Here's a random thought, and probably a terrible idea... If you needed up to 2x the delay, but only 1 channel of the miniDSP, could you loop back from output 1 to input 2 and just add more delay? Or is that the equivalent of crossing the streams?

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post #643 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
What do you mean? The filters don't work as expected. They cause unexpected and incorrect boosts of frequencies around the filter. They have the likely potential to wreak havoc. You can't just load your auto-generated biquads from REW and paste them in and get the intended results. Further, how do you fix the unintended overshoot? With another filter that causes even more overshoot? Where's the easy fix?
I guess Im not understanding. The way I am interpreting your post, this only happens around 10Hz?

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post #644 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:48 AM
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Was this taken by you with each different 2/4 tested to make sure that’s really happening or someone else?
No, it wasn't taken by me. The results are from a 4x10HD which uses the same 96kHz sampling rate. The behavior was confirmed by the minidsp team as being a side effect of the high sampling rate. AFAIK, it hasn't been corrected / compensated for.

Maybe the 2x4HD behaves differently since it has a different processing chipset with a FPU (the 4x10HD lacks a FPU). Someone would need to measure it. It's really easy to measure if you have a REW setup that uses a USB audio interface.

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I guess Im not understanding. The way I am interpreting your post, this only happens around 10Hz?
The issue gets progressively worse the lower the frequency of the filter. It happens at higher frequencies just not as badly.

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post #645 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
No, it wasn't taken by me. The results are from a 4x10HD which uses the same 96kHz sampling rate. The behavior was confirmed by the minidsp team as being a side effect of the high sampling rate. AFAIK, it hasn't been corrected / compensated for.

Maybe the 2x4HD behaves differently since it has a different processing chipset with a FPU (the 4x10HD lacks a FPU). Someone would need to measure it. It's really easy to measure if you have a REW setup that uses a USB audio interface.


The issue gets progressively worse the lower the frequency of the filter. It happens at higher frequencies just not as badly.
The 2x4 could absolutely behave differently with a different chipset but I still cannot picture a scenario where this would "wreak havoc" on the final outcome in actual use.

Do you know of any such reported situations?
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post #646 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 10:10 AM
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@Stereodude and @Brian 6751. I have an idea....the both of you are invited over to my house to settle this once and for all by adjusting / balancing my system with your respective components

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post #647 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 10:19 AM
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@Stereodude and @Brian 6751. I have an idea....the both of you are invited over to my house to settle this once and for all by adjusting / balancing my system with your respective components

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But I dont have anything else to contribute to this thread!!!

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post #648 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OJ Bartley View Post
Here's a random thought, and probably a terrible idea... If you needed up to 2x the delay, but only 1 channel of the miniDSP, could you loop back from output 1 to input 2 and just add more delay? Or is that the equivalent of crossing the streams?

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Yup already there.... but then you lost the ability to EQ 4 subs independently...... your limited to 3....

Not to detail but I think for me it will still be ok.



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post #649 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I love my 2X4 hd. Once I figured out my gain structure. I use my high pass at 15hz, and add delay for the rear subs and nearfield. The WiFi is awesome too.
What was wrong with and how did you fix your gain structure issue? I’m always wondering if I set my gains in the most efficient way possible.
I basically set my inuke and crown gains at 3pm, then adjust input gains on the Minidsp until I get ~85db with pink noise before running Dirac live, and after Dirac live is run, I end up with sub trim anywhere from -2 to 0ish, ie it thinks gain is still too hot and reduces it a bit further with trim.

Am I missing anything else in the process? Always was the part of the process I was least knowledgeable about and so love to read more about how others set theirs.
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post #650 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 02:19 PM
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My issue was simple. I overlooked the input gain slider on the dsp. My amps gains were too low, and input of the dsp too high (0 dB). All I needed to do was balance them out a tad. Mtg90 explained that I’d want to reach limit on my amps just before reaching the limit in the dsp. So all I did was turn up the amp gains, and bring the input sensitivity slider down. So now after all the Audyssey and level matching and upping the bass a little, The signal chain is avr lfe signal -10, the input slider of the dsp, -6, the output sliders at 0, and amp gains are around 2 o’clock. I hit into the -4 led on the clones which is the last led before clipping the amp. So I’m happy. @rukus29 sorry I forgot to “quote” your question post.
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post #651 of 806 Old 01-28-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
My issue was simple. I overlooked the input gain slider on the dsp. My amps gains were too low, and input of the dsp too high (0 dB). All I needed to do was balance them out a tad. Mtg90 explained that I’d want to reach limit on my amps just before reaching the limit in the dsp. So all I did was turn up the amp gains, and bring the input sensitivity slider down. So now after all the Audyssey and level matching and upping the bass a little, The signal chain is avr lfe signal -10, the input slider of the dsp, -6, the output sliders at 0, and amp gains are around 2 o’clock. I hit into the -4 led on the clones which is the last led before clipping the amp. So I’m happy. @rukus29 sorry I forgot to “quote” your question post.
thanks, I need to re-check all that when I go re-calibrate after adding 2 more MBMs. I love how my system sounds now but I wonder if something im doing with gain structure is holding back my low end (not that I can really notice though, but maybe im missing something!).
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post #652 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 04:25 AM
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Hey @Stereodude fyi...here is a quote from biga6761 why he likes the minidsp 2x4HD over the minidsp Balanced:

Quote:
Originally Posted by biga6761 View Post
Well I got my hands on the Minidsp 2x4HD today and installed in place of my 2x4 Balanced. After opening my last round of sub measurements and converting my EQ file to the proper 96k format for the HD I was up and running in no time. Right off the bat I can tell a substantial difference in the SQ and received a solid increase in bass/ULF power for my efforts. Then I loaded the first BEQ and things got serious.

Lets just say BEQ through the HD is on a completely different playing field from the Balanced 2x4 and easily on par with if not better than using JRiver for BEQ with the Balanced in the chain for sub eq alone. I'll post more tomorrow once I've been through more content and also tested BEQ through JRiver using the HD for sub Eq, but there is no way I could ever go back. The sound quality difference alone of the bass would never allow that and with the almost unexplainable difference in BEQ with the HD I'd go as far as withdrawing the Balanced 2x4 completely for even sub eq and especially for BEQ. Using the HD will give me the best of all worlds and allow keeping the bitstream intact but have the same or better quality BEQ than JRiver. Finally no more compromise just amazing BEQ glory.


I'm honestly in shock and have never heard my system in its current form sound this good. Not only does the bass sound better it's better integrated which has increased the sound quality of the system top to bottom. Even using the exact same settings all the way down to the delay settings has yielded more powerful midbass and intensely stronger ULF at the MLP. There is no way to really explain how much different the HD and non-HD units are without using them, no better yet HEARing them yourself.


Expect more impressions but suffice to say this bitch isn't goin' anywhere and is the best addition I made other than acoustic treatments.

Beyond highly recommended, and for anyone looking to get into BEQ, skip the Balanced and go straight for an HD model. If you have a Balanced unit sell it and buy an HD. I wish I hadn't already had my Balanced and had gone for the HD a long time ago.
It really is game changingly better!


BTW Anon was my first full movie with the HD and it is loaded full of ULF with BEQ. I enjoyed the movie quite a bit too.

Also here is enricoclaudio from Rythmik Audio recommending the minidsp HD over the balanced version:
Quote:
Originally Posted by femi View Post
Hi enricoclaudio, would you recommend miniDSP 2x4 HD over miniDSP Balanced 2x4?

Thanks,
Femi
Quote:
Originally Posted by enricoclaudio View Post
Yes, because the 2x4 and 2x4 Balanced share the same specifications but output voltage. That 2x4 balanced version has 4Vrms max output compared to 0.9Vrms on the 2x4 unbalanced. The 2x4 HD is between them with 2Vrms output, which is more than enough for 99% of setups.
I hope this helps.

Femi
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post #653 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 05:53 AM
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Hey @Stereodude fyi...here is a quote from biga6761 why he likes the minidsp 2x4HD over the minidsp Balanced:
I read that yesterday and rolled my eyes really hard. Those are the sort of over the top complete nonsense statements people who replace their replace their $500 cables with $1000 cables make. I'm surprised he didn't tell us that his wife/GF (who of course isn't into audio at all) could hear the difference from the other room and made comments about how much better the system suddenly sounded when she wasn't even aware that he had changed out the balanced 2x4 MiniDSP for the HD model.

There's nothing in the specs or feature sets of either unit that would account for those sorts of drastic sonic differences. He talks about it like he went from stereo to a 7.1.4 system. Surely, if there were such drastic differences there'd be some measurements showing the differences in frequency response, THD, RT60, etc.

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post #654 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 06:07 AM
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I read that yesterday and rolled my eyes really hard. Those are the sort of over the top complete nonsense statements people who replace their replace their $500 cables with $1000 cables make. I'm surprised he didn't tell us that his wife/GF (who of course isn't into audio at all) could hear the difference from the other room and made comments about how much better the system suddenly sounded when she wasn't even aware that he had changed out the balanced 2x4 MiniDSP for the HD model.

There's nothing in the specs or feature sets of either unit that would account for those sorts of drastic sonic differences. He talks about it like he went from stereo to a 7.1.4 system. Surely, if there were such drastic differences there'd be some measurements showing the differences in frequency response, THD, RT60, etc.
I have each of the balanced 2x4, the unbalanced 2x4 and the 2x4 HD. The latter of which I'm using for managing my subwoofers. I have a nice house curve and while it took time for me to dial it in (which was subsequently improved by ChadB), my measurements and sound are to my liking. I have not encountered any (audibly noticeable) clipping using the HD vs the balanced.
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post #655 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 06:17 AM
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I have each of the balanced 2x4, the unbalanced 2x4 and the 2x4 HD. The latter of which I'm using for managing my subwoofers. I have a nice house curve and while it took time for me to dial it in (which was subsequently improved by ChadB), my measurements and sound are to my liking. I have not encountered any (audibly noticeable) clipping using the HD vs the balanced.
The HD and the balanced 2x4 can be configured to have the same voltage range on the input side, so your comment about clipping the input doesn't surprise me. The balanced has a stronger output by ~6dB (if you use its output as balanced [XLR]).

But, you didn't notice how dramatically better the bass was with the 2x4 HD?
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post #656 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 08:18 AM
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The HD and the balanced 2x4 can be configured to have the same voltage range on the input side, so your comment about clipping the input doesn't surprise me. The balanced has a stronger output by ~6dB (if you use its output as balanced [XLR]).

But, you didn't notice how dramatically better the bass was with the 2x4 HD?
The bass was better (might even say "dramatically" so) with the HD, but that was simply due to the more robust delay capability of the HD. The 7.5ms delay on the balanced was just not cutting it. The memory in the DSP chipset of the non-HD versions limits the maximum delay. Can you please post the chart/link showing the overshoot when using steep filters at low frequencies for the 2x4 HD?
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post #657 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 08:32 AM
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@Jk7.2 and @hd0823 -

Thanks to both of you for arranging this awesome event.

I was unable to get to Jared's on time due to my son's soccer tournament being delayed. Then when their team kept winning I found myself rooting for the other teams. Ha. Just wanted to get to the HT bliss.

Jared - I know you were feeling somewhat impotent when you were comparing your theater to Jeremy's, but I'll just say that you might actually need to see a psychiatrist. Your theater is simply amazing. A partner that I worked with in Denver is always the "gold standard" from a spare no expense standpoint that I measure theaters against. Yours blows that out of the water and it was hand-built by you. The bass from those HSTs coupled with the nearfield DS4s (those dirty sluts ;-0) is more than sublime. There's no need for bass shakers when your bass provides more than ample shaking by itself.

I love your setup and each time, with each tweak, it just gets better. One of the reasons I tend to stay off this site (aside from being busy, as we all are) is the feeling I get when I hear these various rooms. Man, talk about adding to my addiction. My wife asked me if we just watched a movie. Lol. I said "nah, just a couple of movie clips and some music." Needless to say, it's the same damn movie clips over and over. How else would we be able to compare against the previous setup?

The WotW and the FotP clips hurt something inside of me. I'm not sure what. I can't remember who was sitting next to me, but I often plug my ears to compare how much of the sensory feeling is auditory vs tactile. Your theater is very tactile. You get a visceral feeling that something isn't quite right about the pressure. I can only imagine your room if it was entirely enclosed. There would be nowhere for all that pressure to go.

All of your improvements didn't go unnoticed. I can tell the difference and would be able to even if we didn't use the same clips as a baseline. I couldn't believe all of that bass was being routed through a minidsp. In any event, kudos to you on all of the labor intensive hard work. I could see the awe and wonder in the eyes of all of the folks present. Great job.

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Can you please post the chart/link showing the overshoot when using steep filters at low frequencies for the 2x4 HD?
I don't have one for the 2x4 HD. I have one for the 4x10 HD. As I mentioned yesterday it is possible that the 2x4 HD doesn't have the same issue since it has a different chipset with a FPU. Someone will have to measure it with REW. If they're using a USB audio interface like a Scarlet 2i2 instead of a UMIK it's super easy to measure. You wire the miniDSP in the middle of the measurement loop and sweep it.
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post #659 of 806 Old 01-29-2019, 08:53 AM
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Jeremy - @hd0823 - What a difference a few inches make, huh? Going from 18s to 21s and simply adding two more fridge-sized boxes turned your theater into something completely foreign to me. Talk about a fortuitous decision to use the room with the vaulted ceilings instead of the basement for your setup.

While your craftsmanship and attention to detail is unrivaled (even without the lobby crown moulding complete ;-), the library is immaculate), the choice to build over a suspended floor will have lasting effects on all of us. When we initially installed the V3s in your space I thought it would be silly to add more despite our encouragement for you to do so. Nevertheless, against your better judgment, you decided to listen to some fools on the internet. Even worse, he went to Jared's. Lol. The sonic improvement to your room and the palpable stimulation from the bass is otherworldly.

I really wish you had told folks that you had nearfield subs to see how the placebo effect would have led to us saying "wow, the nearfield subs shake the whole seat." Alas, I didn't think about it until I was sitting in the center seat in the center row getting abused by some bass from a minivan with Tom Cruise on the screen. Damn is your setup the envy of those who attended.

The Coldwater Creek Cinema needs no more tweaks. I'm sure you will tinker nonetheless. I moved from seat to seat to find the money seat, but to no avail. The money seat is the suspended floor (which I did sit directly on, and is where that tactile feel originates). Awesome work. Can't wait to come back after you add two more 21" V3s in lieu of the cyclops in the back. Looks like you have the room to lay them down back there and you have some 21s just sitting in the library. Not sure what you'll do with the UM-18s though.

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Thanks @VicTorious1 for the compliments. I still feel there are a couple things to improve. Just looking at the difference in PQ at Jeremy’s, his jvc handles black levels so well, the blacks are black. I’d love to get a jvc someday soon.
Also, I plan on finishing my ceiling tiles with black velvet. That will make a nice difference for me for sure. Just tweaks.
I can’t wait to see your theater soon.
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