4D Theater effect of wind swirling in the home theater - Fans/Blowers/Discussion - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 174 Old 02-10-2019, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
this might be better accomplished with variable pitch blades.

That sounds more complicated than I bargained form and am capable of. So I thought I'd try the easy button and if didn't work I'd have a nice fan.

@BassThatHz ,
Inexpensive and old though it is, I don't want to purposely blow up a perfectly functional Crown XLS 202 amp!

---
What about using the relay idea that switches on full AC power to the fan when a minimum voltage is hit -- the relay turns the fan on? Sort of like a 12 volt signal switching relay notnyt made plans for to power cycle audio amplifiers with a 12 volt trigger.

What kind of voltages would we be talking about on a Crown XLS-202 connected to the subwoofer output channel? or inline with the subwoofer out on an AVR if better suited? Any specific ideas from the crowd here?

@notnyt -- any ideas in this space? (since you designed the 12 v DIY amp switch I copied and have enjoyed)

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post #32 of 174 Old 02-10-2019, 12:27 PM
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I'm not an expert by any means with this stuff but the reason I mentioned the transistor route was because I didn't think a mechanical relay would hold up as it'd be switching on and off frequently. But maybe it'd work?
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post #33 of 174 Old 02-10-2019, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
That sounds more complicated than I bargained form and am capable of. So I thought I'd try the easy button and if didn't work I'd have a nice fan.

@BassThatHz ,
Inexpensive and old though it is, I don't want to purposely blow up a perfectly functional Crown XLS 202 amp!

---
What about using the relay idea that switches on full AC power to the fan when a minimum voltage is hit -- the relay turns the fan on? Sort of like a 12 volt signal switching relay notnyt made plans for to power cycle audio amplifiers with a 12 volt trigger.

What kind of voltages would we be talking about on a Crown XLS-202 connected to the subwoofer output channel? or inline with the subwoofer out on an AVR if better suited? Any specific ideas from the crowd here?

@notnyt -- any ideas in this space? (since you designed the 12 v DIY amp switch I copied and have enjoyed)
Could monitor signal level and drive a pwm output to control a solid state relay with a fan hooked up?
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post #34 of 174 Old 02-10-2019, 06:37 PM
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One thought... try a servo motor instead of a typical fan motor. DC fan motor may move appropriately but isn't designed for that type of oscillating drive. I'd worry about early failure.

Something like the motor used in the old servodrive contrabass subwoofer. But instead of driving a sub, drive fan blades directly.

But I'm not sure that rapidly oscillating a fan will provide much net air movement. Probably just a lot of local turbulence and noise. Seems like what you are describing is continuous airflow correlated to the signal.

To me, this sounds more like a pwm controller and fan, with an algorithm that drives the pwm in correlation to the amplitude of the input signal, and perhaps the frequency as well (lower frequency = more pwm output). So a long sustained bass note produces continuous airflow in one direction. And a short explosion produces a short burst of air in that same direction.

That might could be accomplished with an arduino project, not sure if it would require the computation of something like a raspi. I'm not very accomplished with either.
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post #35 of 174 Old 02-10-2019, 07:02 PM
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Read a few of the earlier posts. Sounds like a few suggestions in the same vein... pwm controller and uniderictional fan drive, just vary speed of fan in response to signal.

Saw BTH posts. A complicated custom dsp would certainly work but is that necessary? Wondering if there isn't a simpler analog domain solution.
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post #36 of 174 Old 02-10-2019, 07:12 PM
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I totally fail to see how a fan can simulate a port, especially how perfectly a driver can operate so lightning fast and accurately.

Why simulate a speaker port or ports when you could focus on actually making a few? I mentioned earlier a few ported subs with specific tunes matched together would achieve this, it would only be a matter of managing port output vs chuffing.

What fan can simulate a pressure wave from a sub port?

The only "stock" ones I could imagine are the fans used in bathroom hand dryers, the newer high output ones.

Noisy as can be though and not a lot of output. Solutions using a fan will end up being more expensive than a couple of specially designed subs.

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post #37 of 174 Old 02-11-2019, 07:44 AM
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Ok, I just had a bit of an "ah-ha" moment in concept. @RoboAVS has a good point regarding what matches the speed and pressure wave from a sub port.......a sub of course!

While we are concerned with chuffing from our ULF subs, it is the intended purpose of this project, creating air velocity, ideally moving in one direction rather than oscillating.

Could something like a set of reed valves or possibly quiet flapper valves be added to a sub enclosure to create a directional output from a port to create air waves that can be perceived by the audience? Obviously, it would have to work fairly quietly since it would be exposed to positive then negative pressures very quickly. I also imagine a stiff suspension would be needed for the sub, or perhaps something of a capacitor/diode setup so the sub isn't wrecked when moving the unloaded direction. What other challenges/concept issues are here? Not sure what kind of noises or cancellations a rig like this could introduce either.

I think something with fans will simply have too much latency and feel quite "gimickey" if reactive to program content. Those 4D theaters are programmed to have the fans spin up prior to the action on screen happening in order to compensate for the time of spinning up + time for the air to sweep across the room. A good way to get an idea of the latency is to set up an oscillating fan at the location for the output of the fan rig and let it sweep across the room and time how long it takes to feel it after the face points directly at you. Spoiler alert, not milliseconds lol. And this is with a fan that is already spun up at operating speed.

If a fan based HT air effect rig was reactive to program signal, I would prefer to have the fans at constant speed with pitch controlled blades, possibly in another room with ducting as close to the seating areas as possible to reduce latency.
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post #38 of 174 Old 02-11-2019, 07:56 AM
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Eat some taco bell before hand. All the air movement youd need
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post #39 of 174 Old 02-13-2019, 01:59 AM
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https://www.instructables.com/id/Cir...ts-With-Music/

ensure the voltage ranges are matched (output device and relay). dsp signal shape (high/low pass) around the frequencies where you want the wind to blow. i'm not sure how well a fan is going to do switched on and off like that because of the reason mentioned earlier. a secondary circuit that would allow the fan to at least spin slowly with no signal might be advantageous.

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post #40 of 174 Old 02-20-2019, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Here's a quick, dumb video I took of the Lasko Pro 4905 fan I bought for this project. The kids loved it, and wanted one for their room - simple things right?

It's sufficiently powerful and spins up very fast. I tested it in the theater and it VERY EASILY moves air to the first and second row theater seats in very quick order when plugged in. With one fan flanking the outside subs on each side, there will be no question it will move enough air to be noticeable. It has a built in click/adjustment for the angle that can aim at most anything. It's powerful, in fact it pushes air so quickly that if you are sitting within a couple feet of it and it's blowing on your face you can't force yourself to take a breath -- the kids had fun trying to dare each other to breath when it was blowing so hard on their face. It's reasonably quiet for this much air movement. I think it has the properties of what I need as a base for this project, and exceeded my pre-delivery expectations for air movement/feel.

Now for the hard part, seeking out how to make it work with movies (probably just deep bass engagement) over the next couple months.


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post #41 of 174 Old 02-20-2019, 12:32 PM
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Where are the sleeping bags (ha, and Luke's hat)?

You have to love how kids are always up for any experiments like this that deal with HT. Wives are much less game for this kind of thing.
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post #42 of 174 Old 03-03-2019, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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4D Theater effect of wind swirling in the home theater - Fans/Blowers/Discussion

Stitch1 sent me this

https://www.whirlwindfx.com

I wrote them and asked them to introduce a home theater version sans the heat and RGB options that triggered in bass frequencies < 30hz. We’ll see if they respond.

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post #43 of 174 Old 03-11-2019, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Stitch1 sent me this

https://www.whirlwindfx.com

I wrote them and asked them to introduce a home theater version sans the heat and RGB options that triggered in bass frequencies < 30hz. We’ll see if they respond.
That is so cool!! Only $100? Might have to try it out. But wouldn't it make sense to ask for something more powerful and coded for movies instead of it just going off bass frequencies? Seems like they have 4D aspect you desired figured out already. Not sure the science behind it or how/if it can be tailored to a theater experience when you are much further than a ~1ft computer monitor, but with those raving reviews for the gaming experience, I would imagine they would have some interest in creating something similar for the home theater crowd. I think it'd be a cool little gimmick to use for sure.

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post #44 of 174 Old 03-12-2019, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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The CEO of whirlwindFX who is named Tim wrote me back and said they do not currently have anything on the market or coming for hometheater. Their algorithm requires a PC to operate and running off HDMI output is complex he said.

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post #45 of 174 Old 04-28-2019, 05:50 PM
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There are light controllers with an audio trigger input, which work with conventional tungsten lights. These might be able to drive that fan directly.
AFAIK they use Thyristors to send the AC to the lamps and use the audio signal as gate input.
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post #46 of 174 Old 04-28-2019, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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There are light controllers with an audio trigger input, which work with conventional tungsten lights. These might be able to drive that fan directly.
AFAIK they use Thyristors to send the AC to the lamps and use the audio signal as gate input.


Thanks for the tip. Do you happen to know a model or product so I can look into it further?

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post #47 of 174 Old 04-28-2019, 07:58 PM
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Thanks for the tip. Do you happen to know a model or product so I can look into it further?
The one I had was one of my uncle's DIY projects. You might find something useful by searching for "Light Organ". It's basically a sound-driven dimmer circuit.
What would certainly work would be a DMX controller with the fan on a DMX dimmer. Very expensive thou (probably north of 300$). There are also DMX fans, all that is pro lighting equipment, so it's expensive.


Have a look at the Botex CT 110R. The controller input looks like it could be driven by a higher voltage audio signal.
For example: my mixing console has a maximum undistorted output of +21dbU, which is equivalent to ~8.7V. That should be able to drive this controller.
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post #48 of 174 Old 08-02-2019, 08:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
https://www.instructables.com/id/Cir...ts-With-Music/

ensure the voltage ranges are matched (output device and relay). dsp signal shape (high/low pass) around the frequencies where you want the wind to blow. i'm not sure how well a fan is going to do switched on and off like that because of the reason mentioned earlier. a secondary circuit that would allow the fan to at least spin slowly with no signal might be advantageous.
Swinging back to this idea...

Those Fotek switches are almost free! and that's a nice little easy instructable that might be an easy button.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1Pcs-Solid-...5a68fb47835fb7

But the description reads that they turn on with <1V

That'd be pretty hard to minimize the voltage to less than 1V - even with DSP so that it wasn't just always on with any type of subwoofer signal wouldn't it?

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post #49 of 174 Old 08-02-2019, 08:58 PM - Thread Starter
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This might be an option??? - (3 channels - 500 watts per channel - works off a single RCA input. Channels are activated on Bass, Treble and Mid-range. (though it doesn't say what specific frequencies).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Commercial-...IAAMXQ2UVQ7QZy

But their videos show the lights flashing incredibly fast which I suspect on/offs like that would burn out an electric motor.
http://www.colororgans.com/picture-gallery.php

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post #50 of 174 Old 08-09-2019, 01:18 PM
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do you think fans will be responsive enough? an array of small fans probably wouldn't generate enough air speed (the air coming out of a typical ported cab is on the order of 30-60 mph) and a large fan might take too long to spin up.

what you seem to need is some sort of air pump or "air cannon" or just some supplemental ported cabs (perhaps with undersized ports) and creative DSP that can maximize the use of the tuning frequency for your puposes.


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post #51 of 174 Old 08-09-2019, 01:51 PM
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He didn't like that idea. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56990198

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post #52 of 174 Old 12-14-2019, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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What about something like this?

https://www.eliminatorlighting.com/ed15

Manual:
http://cdb.s3.amazonaws.com/ItemRelatedFiles/10607/ed15.pdf

Its a dimmer pack that has somewhat indescript built in bass controlled audio mode with its built in mic.
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post #53 of 174 Old 12-14-2019, 06:41 AM
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How about a constant pressure system like a normal whole house vacuum, but reversed to create pressure. Build a pipe system that dumps into another space. Then have valves in room that open when needed. A big shop vac might be powerful enough. Just need to figure out the trigger system.
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post #54 of 174 Old 12-14-2019, 06:54 AM
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Those fans they use to keep bouncy houses inflated could be hooked up in another room with a pipe leading into the theater. The fan is always on during the movie. A valve redirects the air from the other room to the theater. Instant air.
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post #55 of 174 Old 12-14-2019, 06:54 AM
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You guys are BANANAS! I love the brainstorming and creativity here!

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post #56 of 174 Old 12-14-2019, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright - I went ahead and bought one of these to test with.

Seems like about the closest match I've found so far to the easy button with a couple of squirrel cage fans. I wish there were more specs on it - like what frequency 'bass' activates it? I like that it's self contained/stand alone, and I like that it's got a sensitivity knob, and that it has 500 watt per channel of which I'd only need two channels. (The Lasko squirrel cage fans run about 125 watts on full speed)

I'll report back after some testing.

https://www.amazon.com/Eliminator-Li...dp/B000WKY4C8/

If that doesn't work - I may try this one next: - has RCA it uses for input - but I may have to buy two - because it's got a 200 watt limitation and only one of the three channels is for bass -- and I really don't want to split my LFE channel even more than I already have (already split 3 way for sub1 channel, and split 3 ways for sub2 channel) for risk of introducing 60hz buzz/hum into the LFE subwoofer channel.
https://www.amazon.com/eTauro-6-Outl...ct_top?ie=UTF8

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post #57 of 174 Old 12-19-2019, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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4D Theater effect of wind swirling in the home theater - Fans/Blowers/Discussion

The ED15 is not going to work for this task. Its a cool little device. It arrived tonight and I hooked it up to our Christmas Tree lights with some dubstep and it has 16 different patterns for the four outlets, but none of them are simply off and then turn on with the beat as I assumed. All 16 of them do some sort of toggle or chase mode to the bass beat, but not just the simplest mode of all (which is what I wanted).

Cool, just not the right tool for this task.

The instruction manual with this thing is TERRIBLE. I had to just experiment to figure which dips did what effect.

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post #58 of 174 Old 12-20-2019, 05:37 AM
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Its been said already, but...


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post #59 of 174 Old 12-20-2019, 05:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I don’t see the appeal of that at all.

The camera must not be doing it justice.

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post #60 of 174 Old 12-20-2019, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
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I don’t see the appeal of that at all.

The camera must not be doing it justice.
I've not heard one but what I've read about them they apparently sound pretty good. I just posted that one because its a DIY version.

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