4D Theater effect of wind swirling in the home theater - Fans/Blowers/Discussion - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 252 Old 01-16-2020, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
Just one so far.

I’ll measure mine at some point but I’ll be surprised if mine is 90ish dB even on high. Was that spl measurement at the seat or near the fan?

How far is you seat from the fan?
LOL, no no, i meant when the LFE(subs) are playing 80dB content(sound), you wouldn’t notice the fan kicking in at 60dB.

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post #92 of 252 Old 01-16-2020, 11:02 AM
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I just realized that I get the same 4D effect from my iNuke amp.
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post #93 of 252 Old 01-16-2020, 03:36 PM
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Well you know me, i couldn’t wait to the weekend to try it out

So, i got it all connected, running a signal from my last free channel of my 10x10HD, LOL, and whipped up REW generator to see how it reacted. First of all i need a loud signal to get them started, like +12 dB(max), and i started with a 60hz LPF.

BUT i am not sure the eTauro has a on/off signal only, because the fans start out VERY slow!! Like barely turning! And there are varying speeds on the fans, depending on how loud signal and a what frequency they are. Although they do make kind of "starting noises", this was with sine waves in REW. I made some tests at different frequencies and added a little EQ so it was kind of smooth and even running trough the range, and then let it rip with a movie

When watching a movie they are DEAD SILENT!!!! None of the noises when they start and are running normal is in any way audiable, so that was very cool. I even did this test with NO subs on to hear noises better, but nada

And you can defenitely feel the wind !! Even from ~7 ft. It is very late night, so i couldn’t make a proper test, but it seems promising so far.

Actually the biggest problem is the size of them, LOL. But i guess i can work it out

A preliminary placement:



So we need something new now:

For sound we have REW to measure.
For TR we have VS or Viberry.

Now we need a wind gauge, HAHAHA.
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post #94 of 252 Old 01-17-2020, 05:36 AM
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@Nalleh do you think the effect adds to the immersion factor? Or has potential but needs tweaking?

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post #95 of 252 Old 01-17-2020, 06:53 AM
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@Nalleh do you think the effect adds to the immersion factor? Or has potential but needs tweaking?
Indeed !! For sure it might need a bit of tweaking to learn what works, like i said my experience is limited to my earlier ported SVS, where i LOVED the effect during ULF effects. And that was before BEQ and TR journey we have now.

I was very concerned about the fan noise being a major issue, and already had plans around a hush box and what not, but surprisingly i heard no noise, only feeling wind, LOL.

Now that i have it up and running i will test more this weekend with content to see what works and feels right. I don’t think it should be more than tweaking the LPF and fiddling with EQ to find what areas Gives the best effect.

I was also worried about the 2 amp max draw from the eTauro outputs when using the RCA input, and these Lasko fans have a max of 1.4 amp each. Since the eTauro only has one "LFE" output, i had to use the built in outlets on one fan to power the other. But it seems to work great.

The fans also work great on all three levels, and i think using level 3(max) might be a way to get a more dynamic function. I think i will also look into making a adjustable "nozzle" at the fan outlet to focus the wind beam even more.
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post #96 of 252 Old 01-17-2020, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Well you know me, i couldn’t wait to the weekend to try it out

So, i got it all connected, running a signal from my last free channel of my 10x10HD, LOL, and whipped up REW generator to see how it reacted. First of all i need a loud signal to get them started, like +12 dB(max), and i started with a 60hz LPF.

BUT i am not sure the eTauro has a on/off signal only, because the fans start out VERY slow!! Like barely turning! And there are varying speeds on the fans, depending on how loud signal and a what frequency they are. Although they do make kind of "starting noises", this was with sine waves in REW. I made some tests at different frequencies and added a little EQ so it was kind of smooth and even running trough the range, and then let it rip with a movie

When watching a movie they are DEAD SILENT!!!! None of the noises when they start and are running normal is in any way audiable, so that was very cool. I even did this test with NO subs on to hear noises better, but nada

And you can defenitely feel the wind !! Even from ~7 ft. It is very late night, so i couldn’t make a proper test, but it seems promising so far.

Actually the biggest problem is the size of them, LOL. But i guess i can work it out

A preliminary placement:



So we need something new now:

For sound we have REW to measure.
For TR we have VS or Viberry.

Now we need a wind gage, HAHAHA.
I mean no disrespect of any sort with this question -

Is that gay porn you're testing these on?
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post #97 of 252 Old 01-17-2020, 01:55 PM
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I mean no disrespect of any sort with this question -

Is that gay porn you're testing these on?
HAHA, the TV was just on in the background and it was commercial break, although i have no idea what this was commercial for, LOL.
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post #98 of 252 Old 01-17-2020, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
HAHA, the TV was just on in the background and it was commercial break, although i have no idea what this was commercial for, LOL.
Yeah right! Can't tell me you didn't notice that.

Anyhow...
Do the blowers put out enough wind to make it worthwhile? They're kinda spendy.
Just wanted to note you can use old HVAC blowers turned upside down to great effect. And usually they can be had for free.
And if you toast them sending them bad signals, meh.

Or maybe the spinup time on the all steel ones is too great of a curve?!?! Not sure.
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post #99 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 01:29 AM
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^^^ Yes, these are some of the thing that will need testing. I think these fans have enough wind, but yeah, the spin up time and delay from the bass hit to the wind is felt is clue. And of course, like with a speaker, the further the fan is from the MLP, the more delay it is.

Although this is no different from port wind from a sub

I will test some more today

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post #100 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 08:02 AM
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The problem with using ported subs for port wind is that it is only at those frequencies the port will affect. The rotary subwoofer is also limited in response but it goes as low as possible. I remember the Philharmagic 4d theater at Disney World having wind and smell effects, it did sound very good.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #101 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 09:27 AM
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Did some more testing today.
WOW, this is actually very cool !

It may be "blind" activation of wind, but it sure can add to the immersion. It is MADE for helicopter movies like Lone Survivor and Black Hawk Down, LOL. it was sooo cool in those scenarios And it can blow some proper wind numbers, actually! During the chinook scene in LS and Irene scene in BHD it was simply amazing, LOL.

And the one mentioned earlier in HTTYD 3 with the waterfall entrance it added a lot to the scene, much more immersive, it is kind of a 4th dimension to all this.

There IS a delay, no way around that, but i don’t see it as a problem really, sub port wind has it too, and that is what this most remind me of: port wind.
It is not pulsing air bursts that comes at you, it is more like a gust of wind, but there is actually very dynamic and "analog". Very surprised by how much it varied.
I meaured volt output from the eTauro, and as i found out last test, it is very analog, and not just a 1/0 signal. Infact with no signal in it give ~60 volts out ! And then it varies up to a ~120-130 volts with the biggest LFE hits.

I did find cases were the fans made audiable noise. If there is quite scenes with a lot of LFE/ULF, they will make that start noise i was talking about earlier. Like in The Martian, where he wakes up alone on Mars, there is a ULF pulsing effect, and you can hear the fans here. And also in LS when that chinook scene is over and the chopper fly away, the sound fades away, and this also triggers that noise. The noise isn’t very loud, and probably not noticable for those who don’t know, but i was listening for it

I ended up watching Angel Has Fallen after the testing, and the added wind was really super cool!! It had a lot of flyovers, and explosions, and i found the 4DX addition did truly add to the whole experience The drone attack was AAAWSOME!! I was just smiling and like : WWWOUW, that was cooool!

Here is a little video from BHD, where i tried to show the wind, LOL.


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post #102 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool,

I'm glad to see some experimenting. I'll have to try the Irene scene from BHD and see how that works.

Do the mouths on your yellow lasko fans not click adjust up and down for angle? I ask because you have them mounted on boxes to elevate, rather than just aimed up a bit?
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post #103 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 10:35 AM
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Cool,

I'm glad to see some experimenting. I'll have to try the Irene scene from BHD and see how that works.

Do the mouths on your yellow lasko fans not click adjust up and down for angle? I ask because you have them mounted on boxes to elevate, rather than just aimed up a bit?
Yes, they do, but when i tried it that way at first, as soon as i reclined the seat, most of the wind went below the recliners foot support. So i had to elevate them to above them, and it was instantly much better.

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post #104 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 12:31 PM
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There IS a delay, no way around that, but i don’t see it as a problem really, sub port wind has it too, and that is what this most remind me of: port wind.
Have you already maximized negative delay going to the fans? It's hard enough to get enough negative delay for TR devices, I can only imagine how much would be ideal for fans. It's gotta be a half second to a second, no? I'm sure it's still really impressive and worth doing, but I'm curious.

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post #105 of 252 Old 01-18-2020, 03:07 PM
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Have you already maximized negative delay going to the fans? It's hard enough to get enough negative delay for TR devices, I can only imagine how much would be ideal for fans. It's gotta be a half second to a second, no? I'm sure it's still really impressive and worth doing, but I'm curious.
Yeah, they are on max neg. delay. Which isn’t a whole lot on our Denons, LOL. And for some reason it felt better when i inverted the signal, but that might be placebo...

And as hard as it is to measure/time align TR, measuring this is even worse!

It is worse on short burst effects, like a single gun shot, where the power burst is to short to get the fan up to speed, and if it does, it is delayed.

But like a explosion(longer signal) or the before mentioned helicopter scenes, it is actually surprisingly effective. And the delay is only when the effect start. When the signal/effect is over, the wind stop immidiately(easier to decrease flow than to increase. Same as starting a ceiling fan. When started, it usually goes a bit of time until you feel the flow, but when you stop it, you feel the decrease almost immidiately).

It is impressive the kind of flow you can get even at 7-10 ft, but as i said, the delay gets worse the more distance. When i watched AHF i moved the fans a bit closer, about 5 ft in front of me, and that helped both for flow and with less delay. Granted when watching movie, the lights are off, so having a couple of big fans on front of you isn’t a major problem, but moving them in and out could be cumbersome, LOL.

You need to get the direction of flow pointed straight at your face/upper body, so if you move them in and out, swithing the eTauro to "always on" while adjusting the noozle works great, and then just switch back to "signal mode", and press play

So the difference between having them on level1 and level 3 is kind of logical:
On level1 they get a bit easier up to speed(less delay), but the max effect is a bit less.
On level3 they need a bit more time to get up speed(tiny bit more delay), but they have a noticable more pronounced effect on big scenes(more dynamic range), like the afforementioned explosions and helicopter scenes. Actually very impressive.

Like using a gear up or down on your car.

And like i mentioned, i thought it would work fine having them just on the floor angled up, and on a normal couch(non-recliner) it would work fine, but a recliner seat simply diverted most of the airflow underneath the foot support, acting like a wing for the wind.

Settings wise, i now run with no extra LPF, other than the AVR’s 120hz, this seemed to help getting them up to speed during LFE effects compared to 60hz or below LPF, and i have a rising house curve of about 20dB from ~30hz and down.

Although using the voltmeter showed that the voltage varies depending on signal strength, i am not sure if it is pulse modulated or voltage(no electrician), and if how it regulates voltage is why the fans make that "stuttering" sound when trying to start, but when it works(gets the "right" signal), they work pretty damn impressive

Going forward i would have to make a more permanent stand for them than the boxes they came in, LOL, and i may look into removing some of the plastic surroundings to slim them down as much as possible. As they are a bit bulky, LOL.

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post #106 of 252 Old 01-19-2020, 09:39 AM
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Two more movies under the belt with 4DX today. Iron Sky and Iron Sky The Coming Race. I actually love these movies, so fun and very well made IMO I even found nr 2 with Atmos !!

This 4DX stuff is really growing on me, LOL. I find i hysterically fun when the wind effect hits just right, and it actually mostly do

I did a little change today, i actually sent front left and right signal form the AVR to the fan channel in Minidsp too, and it seems that it helped activate it at more normal effects, not just ULF effect.

I also tried making a smaller venturi at the fan outlet to try to speed up the airflow, but strangely enough it had no effect.

And the max effect during big explosions is pretty mindblowing if you can believe it, LOL. I am just smiling
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post #107 of 252 Old 01-19-2020, 10:44 AM
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^^^ Super awesome stuff on the fans @Nalleh !!! Taking HT realism yet another step further ...I love it!!! Thanks for posting all this!!!
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post #108 of 252 Old 01-21-2020, 09:16 PM
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BTW, the Lasko fan already has a venturi built in! The outlet isn’t as big as the black cover suggests, as can be seen when removed. And it is actually pretty smoothly shaped inside to this narrower opening. Well done Lasko


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post #109 of 252 Old 01-22-2020, 12:44 PM
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Watched Incredibles 2 tonight i 4DX

I am back to LFE track only, no fronts mixed in, as it got too much.

But : WOW, in this movie the fans worked PERFECT!! It had a very dynamic LFE track with some heavy transients, and the fans picked up on them perfectly! It was so much fun You simply forgot about the fans thingy, enjoyed the movie, and then : BAM, a big explosion and you got a sudden gust of wind in your face. Totally acceptable delay, it actually brought me back to my SVS PB12/2 days, only without the port chuffing, LOL. AWSOME
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post #110 of 252 Old 01-22-2020, 03:47 PM
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Ideally, I think one would want to mount these on or near the ceiling pointed down at the listeners, with a chamber built over the opening with sound deadening material for some short distance, like a hush box. That should remove the higher frequencies which are audible while also concentrating the wind stream.
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post #111 of 252 Old 02-17-2020, 07:42 AM
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Here is how I would go about it.


1. HTPC/Source Device
2. Separate created (Windtrack)
3. Audio Processor
4. RCA/XLR Stereo to fan controller that controls voltages based on input signal volume
5. Variable Speed Fan


But I have ZERO knowledge how to get step 4 and step 5 working or what parts I would need!!!!




Does anyone know?

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post #112 of 252 Old 04-23-2020, 03:45 PM
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Thanks to Nalleh, I have yet one more thing to add to my home theater... is it a need, hell no, is it a want, hell yes, so I too am going to give this a shot. ^_^
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Projector: BenQ w1500 + ES Sable 135" 16:9 Screen AVR: Marantz SR6011 ATMOS/DTSX + Pyle 2ch Amp + Darbee 5000s + miniDSP 2x4HD (for Subs) Speakers: Polk Audio TSX550t (FL/FR), CS2 Series II (C), FXiA6 (SL/SR), Monitor40 Series II (RL/RR), TSx110B (Ceiling FL/FR RL/RR) LFE: (2) Dayton 15" Subs + (2) ButtKicker LFE Arrangement: 7.1.4 Source: OPPO UDP-203 4k Bluray Player, HTPC, nVidia Shield TV Pro, Hauppauge OTA DVR
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post #113 of 252 Old 04-24-2020, 03:25 PM
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Really fun to watch you work through this Nalleh.

I wonder if an insulated manifold/duct work system(similar to hvac systems use) might work? You could remote mount the blower(s) in a closet, basement, cabinet, etc and that would eliminate the mechanical noise and add to the stealth factor. One problem would be accounting for the delay due to the forced air having to travel through the duct work.

You could also simply build "hush" boxes for your current blowers and place them in a less obvious area. Then use short runs of flexible ducting attached to the hush boxes/blowers to aim the air where you want it.
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post #114 of 252 Old 04-24-2020, 03:49 PM
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^^^ The problem would be the increased delay, as you mention. No matter how you move them away, ducting or whatever., it will increase the delay.

But honestly they are virtually silent during moviewatching! Really strange, but the noise you hear when they run from a normal power outlet is NOT present when operated this way!

BTW, i made some nicer stands for the fans




And i watched Alita: Battle Angel last night, and in some scenes the sudden wind burst makes you blink, LOL. So cool and it certainly increases the immersiveness. With that, Atmos, Dolby Vision, MegaHoverBoss and BEQ, it was awsoooome ! So much fun
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post #115 of 252 Old 05-01-2020, 10:38 AM
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Alright I had enough to set up a crude version of this and even that blew my mind.... oh look blew... ha I made a funny, anyhow I am so down with improving upon this, I ordered my miniDSP 2x4HD so I can tweak this a bit more.

I had a crazy and potentially super labor intense idea, what if we made our own audio track for various movies that has built in delay and so on when we exactly want the fans to blow and at what intensities, then using some kind of software no idea what to sync that "wind" audio track with the movies sound track but have separate output locations so the special audio track goes to its own channel that feeds the fans and the normal sound track to the AVR, or am I way over thinking this and there is no way to do that in a more simplistic manner. ^^;; My other reason for this idea is having fans behind you and above you and triggering certain fans for certain wind effect while watching the movie. Im also aware how potentially expensive this would be come lol

Projector: BenQ w1500 + ES Sable 135" 16:9 Screen AVR: Marantz SR6011 ATMOS/DTSX + Pyle 2ch Amp + Darbee 5000s + miniDSP 2x4HD (for Subs) Speakers: Polk Audio TSX550t (FL/FR), CS2 Series II (C), FXiA6 (SL/SR), Monitor40 Series II (RL/RR), TSx110B (Ceiling FL/FR RL/RR) LFE: (2) Dayton 15" Subs + (2) ButtKicker LFE Arrangement: 7.1.4 Source: OPPO UDP-203 4k Bluray Player, HTPC, nVidia Shield TV Pro, Hauppauge OTA DVR
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post #116 of 252 Old 05-01-2020, 10:47 AM
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Also does any notice your fans rattle from quick burst of sound? I imagine that can get cleaned up once I have my miniDSP. (edit: when I plugged in the other blower fan there is no rattle so I think one of my fans is defective so I will be returning it to Home Depot and having a replacement shipped to me.)

I also wonder if its possible to mix a very low test tone just to keep the fans spinning enough not to make noticeable air but to reduce its spin up time for when it kicks up?

I am also think I might make a hush box of sorts to cut down the noise even further and ultimately to make these more stealth in appearance so it doesnt draw much attention.

Projector: BenQ w1500 + ES Sable 135" 16:9 Screen AVR: Marantz SR6011 ATMOS/DTSX + Pyle 2ch Amp + Darbee 5000s + miniDSP 2x4HD (for Subs) Speakers: Polk Audio TSX550t (FL/FR), CS2 Series II (C), FXiA6 (SL/SR), Monitor40 Series II (RL/RR), TSx110B (Ceiling FL/FR RL/RR) LFE: (2) Dayton 15" Subs + (2) ButtKicker LFE Arrangement: 7.1.4 Source: OPPO UDP-203 4k Bluray Player, HTPC, nVidia Shield TV Pro, Hauppauge OTA DVR

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post #117 of 252 Old 05-09-2020, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post
Alright I had enough to set up a crude version of this and even that blew my mind.... oh look blew... ha I made a funny, anyhow I am so down with improving upon this, I ordered my miniDSP 2x4HD so I can tweak this a bit more.

I had a crazy and potentially super labor intense idea, what if we made our own audio track for various movies that has built in delay and so on when we exactly want the fans to blow and at what intensities, then using some kind of software no idea what to sync that "wind" audio track with the movies sound track but have separate output locations so the special audio track goes to its own channel that feeds the fans and the normal sound track to the AVR, or am I way over thinking this and there is no way to do that in a more simplistic manner. ^^;; My other reason for this idea is having fans behind you and above you and triggering certain fans for certain wind effect while watching the movie. Im also aware how potentially expensive this would be come lol
@SOWK and @SirMaster rigged up a little test track like this. They may care to elaborate.

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post #118 of 252 Old 05-10-2020, 07:30 AM
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4D Theater Wind Effect - SirMaster & SOWK Edition

Required Components:

Source Device - HTPC or any devices that can run KODI *Fan Control software will require a PC with Microsoft Windows OS

Media Player - MPC-BE / MPC-HC / KODI

Additional Hardware: USB IR Transceiver & Wired IR Emitter or USB IR Toy v2

Additional Software: winLIRC

Additional Software: Fan Configuration file for winLIRC (DOWNLOAD: WinLIRC & Fan Configuration File)

Additional Software: Wind track files (User Created) - (DOWNLOAD: Wind Tracks)

Additional Software: SirMaster's HTFanControl (DOWNLOAD: HTFanControl)

Fans - Seville Classics Black UltraSlimline 40" Oscillating Tower Fan (PURCHASE: Model #: EHF10127B)


How It Works:

1. User will create a Wind Track .txt file with the same name of the source file they will be playing. The file will need time stamps and IR commands they want to send (OFF, ECO, LOW, MED, HIGH)

Example file name:

Ford v Ferrari (2019).txt

Example data inside Ford v Ferrari (2019).txt

00:01:09,HIGH
00:01:26,OFF
00:02:11,LOW
00:02:14,MED
00:02:17,HIGH
00:02:48,OFF
00:04:02,LOW
00:04:05,MED
00:04:12,HIGH
00:04:42,OFF


2. HTPC runs the source file through MPC-BE (Using the example above it would be Ford v Ferrari (2019).mkv)

3. @SirMaster 's HTFanControl program then does the following:
It communicates with MPC-BE/MPC-HC to get the current time stamp of the active source file playing
It accesses the user created .TXT file with time stamps and IR commands
It sends the IR commands to winLIRC at the specified time stamps in the user created file.
(The HTFanControl program also has a user editable start up fan negative delay and switch mode negative delay. Example: If you want the fans to turn on at time stamp 00:10:00 and the fans take 2 secs for the wind to hit you the program will start the fans up at 00:09:58)

4. When winLIRC receives the IR command from HTFanControl it sends that command to the USB IR Toy v2

5. The USB IR Toy v2 then sends the IR command to the Seville Classics Black UltraSlimline 40" Oscillating Tower Fan (Model #: EHF10127B)

Simplistic in design, but it works perfectly.

Setup:

MPC-BE/HC
1. Turn on Web Interface



*In progress*
KODI
2.

Video:

The fans hit you exactly when they are supposed to start and stop per the action on the screen. The video shows the paper slightly late, but that is because I optimized the start and stop for the middle of your body reclined and not just for the face where the paper is located.


Pictures:

Initial Testing:


Building Fan Housing:


90% Finished Front: (Air Exhaust)


90% Finished Back: (Air Intake)


Finished Look:





Additional Information

Materials - Build Fan Housing:

1. Menards 12" X 48" Sonotube
2. 3M Super 77 Multi-Purpose Spray Adhesive
3. Royalty 3 Velvet Fabric
4. FastCap Kaizen Tool Storage Foam - (Top Cap, Middle Support Brace, Double thick Bottom Cap to raise the Fan up)
5. Rust-Oleum Stops Rust 12 oz. Protective Enamel Flat Black Spray Paint - (Paint inside the sonotube)
6. Cowles Black Edge Trim, 18' - (For middle portion cutout edge protection)
7. Frost King E/O 3/8 in. x 10 ft. Foam Tape - (Internal foam ledge for middle brace and top plate to rest on)
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post #119 of 252 Old 05-10-2020, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by SOWK View Post
Finished Look:

Nicely done!
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post #120 of 252 Old 05-11-2020, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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@SOWK and @SirMaster.

It's pretty incredible what you've come up with there. I'm going to link this to the first post, as I will also link @Nallehs' setup to the first post.

Any subsequent developments, or unique takes on this I'll link to the first post too.

By the way Tony, what did you wrap the sonotube cutout with? The gloss black silver lining around the fan cutout? Your whole project looks stellar.

------------------

FWIW, There is a product on the market that I had talked about previous post in this thread that is of interest, but is not scaled to the home theater. It's currently on sale for $75. If you just wait on the webpage for a few minutes an additional 10% coupon will pop up too, saving an additional $7.50. Might be a good time to buy one to experiment. I'm debating buying a couple of these to try.

https://www.whirlwindfx.com/products/vortx






I wonder if some aspiring DIYer might be able to get an idea from this, upgrade the circuitry, power handing, and fuses in the unit to operate a pro space heater squirrel cage fan combo - something like this.
https://www.lasko.com/products/pro-c...y-heater-5919/

Depending on how complicated the electrical components are inside - I think I might experiment with this myself.








EDIT - Gamer's Nexus did an excellent tear down video on the VortX. If you are curious how this thing works.
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