At low to medium volume - DIYSG HTM-12 or 1099? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 10-21-2018, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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At low to medium volume - DIYSG HTM-12 or 1099?

Most of the reviews and GTG reviews talk about speakers at reference level or >100 db but I almost never listen at those levels. I want to get new LCRs. I've narrowed it down to those two speakers.

A little background:
I started off looking at Emotiva T2/C2 and ELAC. Then started looking at DIY narrowing it down to Anthology towers and Statement II center. Unfortunately, it seems that with almost all towers, the placement restrictions are something along the lines of 3' from a sidewall, 3' away from the wall behind the speakers (can be reduced to 18"), and a minimum of 7 feet separating the towers. You also apply the golden rule: Distance speakers are apart X 1.5 = minimum distance you sit away from the speakers. Way too many restrictions. Plus, the towers are generally focused on music so the term Golden Seat applies. Can't move left or right or up or down or you will move out of the sweet spot. Dispersion is not good. Need a big enough amp to provide headroom for best sound quality and dynamics. Efficiency in mid 80s.

This led me to DIYSG and their Cinema line. High efficiency so I can use my AVR rather than dedicated amps to get the designed sound quality. Wide dispersion using the SEOS waveguide so not just 1 person is in the sweet spot.

The current setup was strictly for HT but then I got a new TV which necessitated a new AVR which allowed me to connect it to wi-fi and use my music streaming service and suddenly, I don't like my Klipsch LCR. They are fine for HT but not for music. It's about 90% HT/10% music. It might change with better speakers.

I'm a grandfather so I grew up with big box speakers (I have JBL L300s) and I've been indoctrinated with 3-ways are better than 2-ways given equally good design and materials. This has me waffling between the 2 way HTM and 3 way 1099. I don't need the high db capability of either speaker. Each speaker generally has a volume level where it "comes alive", at or above that volume, the speaker sounds its best. I have a Denon AVR-X3400 (105 wpc) and I generally listen at a volume setting between 35 - 60 (wife usually asks me to turn it down if I get into high 50's - she puts tissue in her ears at the movie theater).

So at my desired volume level, is there a difference in dynamics, dialog clarity, "aliveness", musicality? I have a flat screen that is currently on a stand with the center speaker under it. I just bought a wall mount in preparation for having a larger center on the top shelf or a HTM-12 on the floor and raise the TV to the required height. I would prefer a horizontal center on the stand rather than having the HTM-12 on the floor. DIYSG has a HTM horizontal in testing with 10" woofers but no indication when it would be available. So at some point in the future, I could go HTM 12/horizontal 10/12. Hoping those of you that have experience with the HTMs and 1099s will provide me with feedback that pushes me one way or the other. If I go with the HTM, I will probably wait for the horizontal 10.

I've read threads where some feel the HTM is as good as the 1099, others where 1099 is a step above the HTM. I don't want to go down the rabbit hole with upgrade-itis. I've had the Klipsch for 15 years and I'd like to be satisfied with the SQ of the new speakers where I would keep them for that long. I might have to upgrade the surround after upgrading the LCR.

The room is open concept family room - 3 walls then shared space with kitchen/nook/hall. The 3 walls of the family room are 18' L X 12' W (front wall where speakers/TV are) X 29' (back wall) X 8' H. The front wall ends at the hallway/kitchen space.

Thanks for any feedback you can give me about the performance of these speakers at low to medium volume - especially if you can compare the two.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #2 of 21 Old 10-22-2018, 01:58 PM
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I love my HTM-10s, they sound great to me at all volumes.

I have, however, read posts from members that have heard and/or owned both ( @brian6751 for one) who say the 1099s are on another level. I suspect the additional midrange has quite a bit to do with that.

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post #3 of 21 Old 10-22-2018, 02:35 PM
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Good subs, well placed and well integrated, are going to make a huge difference IMHO. Have you thought about that aspect of things? Almost all of the DIYSG offerings are intended to be used with subs, and my gut tells me that solid bass output is going to be essential for a satisfying experience at modest volumes.

Sorry I can't comment on those particular speakers, haven't heard them.

/$.02
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post #4 of 21 Old 10-22-2018, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post
Good subs, well placed and well integrated, are going to make a huge difference IMHO. Have you thought about that aspect of things? Almost all of the DIYSG offerings are intended to be used with subs, and my gut tells me that solid bass output is going to be essential for a satisfying experience at modest volumes.

Sorry I can't comment on those particular speakers, haven't heard them.

/$.02
Thanks smcmillan2. I know the people that own just the HTMs are very happy with them and if I went that route, I probably would be too. Just stuck on 2 way vs 3 way and vertical center needing to be on the floor vs horizontal on my TV stand.

Thanks antisuck. I'm in the camp that thinks that for HT, I don't need Rhythmik/Hsu/Monoprice Monolith/DIY 15s. I'm satisfied with the 2 I have. If was doing "critical" listening to music, I would probably want to upgrade my subs. I do think that at lower volume, the subs tend to overpower the LCR (I have to dial back the subs from what Audyssey set) but at higher volumes, they blend well.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
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post #5 of 21 Old 10-22-2018, 04:16 PM
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I would go with a design that has a horizontal center option currently. There is no guarantee that a HTM center will see the light of day. Are there any size restrictions for the speakers? The 1099's are NOT small. Either are the HTM-12 for that matter

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post #6 of 21 Old 10-22-2018, 09:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
I would go with a design that has a horizontal center option currently. There is no guarantee that a HTM center will see the light of day. Are there any size restrictions for the speakers? The 1099's are NOT small. Either are the HTM-12 for that matter
Thanks Brian. There isn't a height restriction for LR but there is for the center. If I went with the HTM-12 (25" tall), it would go on the floor in front of my TV stand (with the TV having to go from the TV stand to a wall mount to be above the HTM) but it would give me 3 identical vertically oriented speakers. The 1099 horizontal would go on the top shelf of the TV stand since it won't fit on the shelves below and force me to go to a wall mount (which I already purchased but haven't installed since which speaker I choose dictates how high I mount it). I don't want a vertical 1099 center - that would place the TV too high for me. The top of the center HTM-12 on the floor would be lower than a horizontal 1099 on top of the TV stand.

For me, it's a matter of which speaker HTM-12 vs 1099 will be best at low to medium volume. The 15" Seos on the HTM vs the 10" on the 1099 + the two 5" mids.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #7 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 04:23 AM
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Thanks Brian. There isn't a height restriction for LR but there is for the center. If I went with the HTM-12 (25" tall), it would go on the floor in front of my TV stand (with the TV having to go from the TV stand to a wall mount to be above the HTM) but it would give me 3 identical vertically oriented speakers. The 1099 horizontal would go on the top shelf of the TV stand since it won't fit on the shelves below and force me to go to a wall mount (which I already purchased but haven't installed since which speaker I choose dictates how high I mount it). I don't want a vertical 1099 center - that would place the TV too high for me. The top of the center HTM-12 on the floor would be lower than a horizontal 1099 on top of the TV stand.



For me, it's a matter of which speaker HTM-12 vs 1099 will be best at low to medium volume. The 15" Seos on the HTM vs the 10" on the 1099 + the two 5" mids.


They will both sound good. The HTM has a smoother top end. The 1099 has more detailed midrange. I wouldn’t want any of them on the floor.


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post #8 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 04:33 AM
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I’ll throw another option out there that may be a better choice for your setup, listening habits and concern for musical sound quality.

The Jeff Bagby designed Helix Dome MTM

I have a pair of the MT’s in a two channel music setup and they sound great for music listening at low/normal levels.

The MTM version bumps the sensitivity up to 91 and it can be used as a horizontal center as well.

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/helix-dome-mtm-kit.html


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post #9 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
They will both sound good. The HTM has a smoother top end. The 1099 has more detailed midrange. I wouldn’t want any of them on the floor.
Thanks. Did you have the 10 ohm resister paralleled to the 3 ohm to reduce the tweeter output by 1 to 2 db on the 1099 to make them less "bright"? I would probably do that if I go with the 1099. Coming from Klipsch horns, I'm kind of sensitive to that. Same mod is available for the HTM but I would have to check if it is needed.

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Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
I’ll throw another option out there that may be a better choice for your setup, listening habits and concern for musical sound quality.

The Jeff Bagby designed Helix Dome MTM

I have a pair of the MT’s in a two channel music setup and they sound great for music listening at low/normal levels.

The MTM version bumps the sensitivity up to 91 and it can be used as a horizontal center as well.

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/helix-dome-mtm-kit.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The design where the speaker centers are aligned is not recommended for horizontal placement. Too much sound wave interference. You'll notice the 88 special has the tweeter above the mids and several manufacturers have a raised tweeter so the speaker centers don't line up. I had no idea there was an issue with flopping MTM design on its side until Erich suggested I go with 3 identical vertical speakers as there are issues whenever a horizontal center is created. The 99 family with the stacked tweeter and mids (making the T & M speaker centers offset from the W centers) is the best alternative to a vertical center. Then a design like the 88 special where the tweeter is placed above the mids which are spaced close together would be next.

Wife tells me at breakfast that the center has to go on the TV stand so a horizontal is a must. Wish they still had the 893 as the 1099 is more speaker than I need but I'm leaning toward the 1099 since theoretically, it has the best design for a horizontal and I don't know when a horizontal HTM will be available. And for a center speaker, it seems that midrange clarity/detail is most important since most human speech falls into that range (so you saying midrange is more detailed pushes me that way). If you didn't add the 10 ohm resister to the 1099, hopefully, adding it will make the top end seem smoother.

Thanks for the input.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #10 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 11:42 AM
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The design where the speaker centers are aligned is not recommended for horizontal placement. Too much sound wave interference. You'll notice the 88 special has the tweeter above the mids and several manufacturers have a raised tweeter so the speaker centers don't line up. I had no idea there was an issue with flopping MTM design on its side until Erich suggested I go with 3 identical vertical speakers as there are issues whenever a horizontal center is created. The 99 family with the stacked tweeter and mids (making the T & M speaker centers offset from the W centers) is the best alternative to a vertical center.
I believe this is because of the axis of loping you get within the crossover range of the two drivers. With all the cones centered in a horizontal line, you get horizontal lobing as you move off axis laterally. With them centered in a vertical line, you get vertical lobing but lateral response is consistent. With the HF drivers being at a 45* angle from the woofers, it's in between the two. So technically, another regular 1099 as a vertical center would be best but obviously would only be ideal behind an acoustically transparent screen.

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post #11 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 04:43 PM
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The design where the speaker centers are aligned is not recommended for horizontal placement. Too much sound wave interference. You'll notice the 88 special has the tweeter above the mids and several manufacturers have a raised tweeter so the speaker centers don't line up. I had no idea there was an issue with flopping MTM design on its side until Erich suggested I go with 3 identical vertical speakers as there are issues whenever a horizontal center is created. The 99 family with the stacked tweeter and mids (making the T & M speaker centers offset from the W centers) is the best alternative to a vertical center. Then a design like the 88 special where the tweeter is placed above the mids which are spaced close together would be next.

Wife tells me at breakfast that the center has to go on the TV stand so a horizontal is a must. Wish they still had the 893 as the 1099 is more speaker than I need but I'm leaning toward the 1099 since theoretically, it has the best design for a horizontal and I don't know when a horizontal HTM will be available. And for a center speaker, it seems that midrange clarity/detail is most important since most human speech falls into that range (so you saying midrange is more detailed pushes me that way). If you didn't add the 10 ohm resister to the 1099, hopefully, adding it will make the top end seem smoother.

Thanks for the input.
I had the same dilemma.Wanted the 893 because the 1099 were too big,wanted a three way design.Wanted a flatpack for ease of building.Keep going back and fourth.

Have you asked Erich if he has anymore 893's?
I know he doesn't have flatpacks.If he does,you would have to build the boxes.I decided to build the boxes.They're are a cool looking "little"speaker(well box,because that's all I have done.
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post #12 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I had the same dilemma.Wanted the 893 because the 1099 were too big,wanted a three way design.Wanted a flatpack for ease of building.Keep going back and fourth.

Have you asked Erich if he has anymore 893's?
I know he doesn't have flatpacks.If he does,you would have to build the boxes.I decided to build the boxes.They're are a cool looking "little"speaker(well box,because that's all I have done.
Thanks. Yes, I asked Erich this morning - waiting hear back.

Yeah, going back and forth - Erich is probably tired of me waffling, HTM-12, 1099, what about 893? I didn't have this problem choosing and buying a TV or AVR.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
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post #13 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 05:39 PM
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Thanks. Yes, I asked Erich this morning - waiting hear back.

Yeah, going back and forth - Erich is probably tired of me waffling, HTM-12, 1099, what about 893? I didn't have this problem choosing and buying a TV or AVR.
I sometimes get the feeling he's probably tired of hearing from me too.He's such a patient,helpfull and generous person.We are truly blessed to have DIYSoundgroup.
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post #14 of 21 Old 10-23-2018, 06:08 PM
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I put a switch in line with the extra resistor on my 1099's so I could turn it on and off. It makes a very slight difference but its there. they do sound better with the resistor in place when not behind a screen IMO

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post #15 of 21 Old 10-25-2018, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Since I needed a horizontal center, that requirement made the choice for. No timeframe on when the HTM horizontal center will be available so it's the 1099. Thanks for your input everyone.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #16 of 21 Old 10-25-2018, 04:16 PM
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Great choice!
I'm sure they'll sound amazing.
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post #17 of 21 Old 03-12-2019, 01:47 PM
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Hacker, what do you think of the 1099's? I'm in the same situation as you 5 months ago, with very similar size limitations and listening demands. Wavering between the 1099, HTM-12, and the thought of an 893 being available down the road. Is there any doubt that you made the right choice?
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post #18 of 21 Old 03-12-2019, 05:36 PM
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Old thread...but.


I have the 1099 speakers in my theater and Statement II and Finalists in my living room where the Statement II is my LCR.


I just want to offer a couple of thoughts:


The Statement II center is a sealed speaker and there is no restriction. The Anthologies and Statement II speakers are completely fine at 18" from the back wall and do not need to be 3' from side walls. The wall proximity is important given they utilize and employ a "back wave" from an open rear for the mids. This creates an environment of sound rather than a wall of sound being pushed at you. The difference is as unmistakable as it is incredible. Also, with the Statement II, the tweeter is a ribbon, which is tack sharp. Although Jim and Curt did not use the top of the line components, vocals (speech and melodic) are incredibly detailed and realistic. While there is simply no comparison in terms of reproduction quality, there is definitely a difference in SPL, dispersion and exposition of poor recording. The Statement II is simply a far superior sounding speaker, but more finicky as you've stated. At lower volumes, they simply blow the 1099s away.


I do love my theater set up and would not change it, bit I also would not want 1099s if they were my main listening speakers.
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post #19 of 21 Old 03-14-2019, 03:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Hacker, what do you think of the 1099's? I'm in the same situation as you 5 months ago, with very similar size limitations and listening demands. Wavering between the 1099, HTM-12, and the thought of an 893 being available down the road. Is there any doubt that you made the right choice?
If I had it to do over again, I would buy the Emotiva T2/C2 assuming they ran another special. Emotiva support told me they don't have sales but what do you know? Holiday sales - so not happy about that.

DIY, if you haven't worked with finishing materials for other projects, the finished product will look OK but definitely not up to vendor standards. I learned a LOT, it was fun, but I would have saved a good amount of money during the holiday sale going with the t2/c2 combo. I definitely was not blown away by the sound quality of the 1099s. I did a lot of measuring using REW and changing curves for the Denon AVR's audyssey multeq xt32. It took quite a bit of time/effort to get the sound close to what I wanted.

BUT, as jwanck11 points out with the Statement IIs, the T2's are back ported. The big advantage of the DIYSG home theater speakers are front porting. MY LR speakers are very close to the wall behind them. I think the T2 would be OK since it is just porting for the bass while the Statement is for the mid and they really emphasize needing at least 18" to get the expansive sound they designed.

The 1099 wasn't the big step up in sound I was hoping for. It definitely boosted the mid-bass compared to just subs and small bookshelf LR - just wasn't the WOW that several other builders/reviewers have stated...more like meh.

YMMV depending on your setup, equipment, and room.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #20 of 21 Old 03-14-2019, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jwanck11 View Post
Old thread...but.


I have the 1099 speakers in my theater and Statement II and Finalists in my living room where the Statement II is my LCR.


I just want to offer a couple of thoughts:


The Statement II center is a sealed speaker and there is no restriction. The Anthologies and Statement II speakers are completely fine at 18" from the back wall and do not need to be 3' from side walls. The wall proximity is important given they utilize and employ a "back wave" from an open rear for the mids. This creates an environment of sound rather than a wall of sound being pushed at you. The difference is as unmistakable as it is incredible. Also, with the Statement II, the tweeter is a ribbon, which is tack sharp. Although Jim and Curt did not use the top of the line components, vocals (speech and melodic) are incredibly detailed and realistic. While there is simply no comparison in terms of reproduction quality, there is definitely a difference in SPL, dispersion and exposition of poor recording. The Statement II is simply a far superior sounding speaker, but more finicky as you've stated. At lower volumes, they simply blow the 1099s away.


I do love my theater set up and would not change it, bit I also would not want 1099s if they were my main listening speakers.
Jim and Curt are the ones that told me the speakers need to be 3' away from a sidewall. Curt did say that properly placed room treatment would eliminate that requirement. Just as important was they 18" requirement. They also didn't like that I would be streaming compressed music rather than cd quality. So I just went with the easier, less expensive build.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #21 of 21 Old 03-19-2019, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by jwanck11 View Post
Old thread...but.


I have the 1099 speakers in my theater and Statement II and Finalists in my living room where the Statement II is my LCR.


I just want to offer a couple of thoughts:


The Statement II center is a sealed speaker and there is no restriction. The Anthologies and Statement II speakers are completely fine at 18" from the back wall and do not need to be 3' from side walls. The wall proximity is important given they utilize and employ a "back wave" from an open rear for the mids. This creates an environment of sound rather than a wall of sound being pushed at you. The difference is as unmistakable as it is incredible. Also, with the Statement II, the tweeter is a ribbon, which is tack sharp. Although Jim and Curt did not use the top of the line components, vocals (speech and melodic) are incredibly detailed and realistic. While there is simply no comparison in terms of reproduction quality, there is definitely a difference in SPL, dispersion and exposition of poor recording. The Statement II is simply a far superior sounding speaker, but more finicky as you've stated. At lower volumes, they simply blow the 1099s away.


I do love my theater set up and would not change it, bit I also would not want 1099s if they were my main listening speakers.
Ive been wavering between the 1099 and Statement II. Your post is very helpful. When you say exposition of poor recording, which speaker is more forgiving? Do you have sealed or ported Statement? I’m considering sealed with the 2 subs I have, but would like to hear your recommendation there. Thanks
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