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post #1 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Help choosing a driver.

Hey guys currently I have a Rythmik fv25hp that I love. Problem is my room demands additional subs to help smooth out the response. Since I do not have the funds nor the WAF to get another refrigerator put into the living room I am looking at buying a nx6000d and building a sub. Never built one but have been reading a ton over the past month. I have a couple questions and I’m hoping someone may take the time to answer some. I plan to build a Marty cube as I think the mini Marty might be too big for my to get the wife approval.

1) using a Marty cube box what driver will match the output of the fv25hp such that they blend well together?

2) if I did build cube would it be possible to remove some depth and add height without messing up tuning really badly?

What are some other build option designs that I may have missed such as a cyclops etc.

Extra information:
Room size is about 21x19 vaulted ceiling with a max height of 13.8 ft. Open design floor plan.

I want enough bass to really have the tactile feel but yet not overpower the rest of the speakers.

My setup currently:
Rf7iii left and right
Rc64iii center
Polk rtia4 surrounds
4 x cdt-5800 cii atmos speakers.
Rythmik fv25hp sub.





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post #2 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 08:20 AM
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The Johnny sub might be an option with a UM18, it is not a slouch and smaller than the mini. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...johnnysub.html
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post #3 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 09:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
The Johnny sub might be an option with a UM18, it is not a slouch and smaller than the mini. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...johnnysub.html


Thanks for the reply. Not sure how I missed the Johnny sub. That might be the ticket. Now for the driver question. Is the UM18 in that box going to be able to keep up and compliment the fv25hp or will I be limiting the output. I hear everyone says you should get identical subs but I just can’t afford that so just want to make sure if I’m building it I am building the correct complement to the sub I have currently. Within reason of course.


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post #4 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 09:54 AM
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I ran the the WinISD simulation at 2m with a 1000 watt input power, box 7.5 volume 19.5 tune(I think the tune was a bit higher than initially thought) excursion is well in check. The chart is from the data-bass review. Please do not go off of just what I think, get a second opinion
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post #5 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 11:06 AM
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I will second the johnny sub. It was my first sub build (x4). There is some misinformation in the johnnysub thread, but this is correct:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
My bad. You were right.


I just measured again. Looks like about 7.5 cubic feet before driver and bracing, so it will net about 7.0 cubic feet +/- a little.


With a 2.5" tall slot port with two slot braces and 44" length, tuning will be around 19.5hz +/-.


form factor:





Performance of three drivers at 1100 watts.
black = stereo integrity 18HT aka SI 18HT
green = Dayton RSS460HO aka 18HO
red = Dayton UM18




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post #6 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Help choosing a driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
I will second the johnny sub. It was my first sub build (x4). There is some misinformation in the johnnysub thread, but this is correct:


Thank you for that. I actually was looking through the thread and saw all off that. Now this may be a dumb question but the fv25hp has a much lower tuning frequency however the output at say 10,20,30 hz of the um18-22 seems to dwarf the Rythmik in a Johnny box. Am I reading these graphs wrong?





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post #7 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 11:49 AM
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https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=147&mset=174



That chart is the basic response, which is not pushing it to the limits. "Long Term Output Sweeps / Output Compression Testing / Overload Behavior
Long term output testing for the FV25HP starts at the usual level that produces roughly 90dB at 50Hz when measured at a 2m distance, outdoors, ground-plane. The FV25HP behaves in a linear manner all of the way up to and through the 110dB sweep where there is less than 1dB compression at any point in the 10-120Hz bandwidth. The 115dB sweep is still well behaved, but does start to cause some output compression and audible vent noise near the vent tuning. At this level the FV25HP starts to compress a bit in the 10-20Hz octave where it reaches about 1 to 1.5dB. Compression remains less than 1dB over the rest of the frequency range. Increasing the output demands another 5dB, to a nominally 120dB measurement, pushed the FV25HP into its maximum output limitations over most of the frequency bandwidth. The output near 14-18Hz does not increase at all indicating that the FV25HP was already at its maximum output in this bandwidth during the 115dB measurement. The amount of compression occurring during the 120dB measurement reaches about 5 to 6dB over much of the deep bass below 20Hz and also reaches about 3dB above 90Hz. This indicates that the FV25HP is at its maximum output. During the 120dB sweep the FV25HP produced 100dB at 11.5Hz, 105dB at 13.5Hz, 110dB at 18.5Hz, 115dB at 25Hz and 120dB or greater above 49Hz. The FV25HP did exhibit audible vent noise during the 115 and 120dB sweeps, but otherwise seemed unfazed. There was just a slight fuzziness to the sound of the 120dB sweep indicating some harmonic distortion. The cab itself did not exhibit any buzzes, rattles or other nastiness that sometimes appear during maximum output sine wave sweeps. Overall the 120dB sweep was a relatively drama free measurement considering the output being produced by the subwoofer. The repeat 100dB measurement showed no long term effects or shifting of the response due to the corrections of the servo system."



Your sub does have more output in the tank. It should line up nicely with the UM18 in the Johnny Sub.
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post #8 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 11:50 AM
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Here is your Rythmik compared to a sealed UM18. The vented UM18 will be flatish to 20hz. Don't overthink the graphs too much
How much extension do you need?

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post #9 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 12:37 PM
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Just throwing this out there, but if 'feel' is main goal maybe can be accomplished better through buttkicker/transducers?

Second sub is gonna smooth out the response, but in that large of space I don't know how much more 'feel' you'll accomplish.

If putting the second sub right up against seating area, that negates my concern.
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post #10 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Help choosing a driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JNayAV View Post
Just throwing this out there, but if 'feel' is main goal maybe can be accomplished better through buttkicker/transducers?



Second sub is gonna smooth out the response, but in that large of space I don't know how much more 'feel' you'll accomplish.



If putting the second sub right up against seating area, that negates my concern.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
https://data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=147&mset=174



That chart is the basic response, which is not pushing it to the limits. "Long Term Output Sweeps / Output Compression Testing / Overload Behavior
Long term output testing for the FV25HP starts at the usual level that produces roughly 90dB at 50Hz when measured at a 2m distance, outdoors, ground-plane. The FV25HP behaves in a linear manner all of the way up to and through the 110dB sweep where there is less than 1dB compression at any point in the 10-120Hz bandwidth. The 115dB sweep is still well behaved, but does start to cause some output compression and audible vent noise near the vent tuning. At this level the FV25HP starts to compress a bit in the 10-20Hz octave where it reaches about 1 to 1.5dB. Compression remains less than 1dB over the rest of the frequency range. Increasing the output demands another 5dB, to a nominally 120dB measurement, pushed the FV25HP into its maximum output limitations over most of the frequency bandwidth. The output near 14-18Hz does not increase at all indicating that the FV25HP was already at its maximum output in this bandwidth during the 115dB measurement. The amount of compression occurring during the 120dB measurement reaches about 5 to 6dB over much of the deep bass below 20Hz and also reaches about 3dB above 90Hz. This indicates that the FV25HP is at its maximum output. During the 120dB sweep the FV25HP produced 100dB at 11.5Hz, 105dB at 13.5Hz, 110dB at 18.5Hz, 115dB at 25Hz and 120dB or greater above 49Hz. The FV25HP did exhibit audible vent noise during the 115 and 120dB sweeps, but otherwise seemed unfazed. There was just a slight fuzziness to the sound of the 120dB sweep indicating some harmonic distortion. The cab itself did not exhibit any buzzes, rattles or other nastiness that sometimes appear during maximum output sine wave sweeps. Overall the 120dB sweep was a relatively drama free measurement considering the output being produced by the subwoofer. The repeat 100dB measurement showed no long term effects or shifting of the response due to the corrections of the servo system."



Your sub does have more output in the tank. It should line up nicely with the UM18 in the Johnny Sub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
Here is your Rythmik compared to a sealed UM18. The vented UM18 will be flatish to 20hz. Don't overthink the graphs too much
How much extension do you need?



Thanks guys for the input. So here is a dumb question. When I’m running Audyssey it has me set the gain at a click below midway. Now obviously I want to keep it in the negative so I can run it a bit hot so I have it a click or two beyond halfway which equates to a setting of around -9 or -10 dB ish. Long story short I don’t run the sub anywhere near maximum output to ensure good balance with my rf7iii speakers. So when looking at maximum output it shouldn’t matter correct? I’m not looking for additional headroom since I’m not even using the headroom I have now right? Basically to play around I turned up the sub almost all the way and it basically was so loud i thought I was back in high school lol.

This second sub IMO is more geared to making the response smooth but since I do not run the sub all the way up will I gain anything else?


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post #11 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 01:57 PM
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Like you stated, you are gaining a more even response and that response will most likely be even in more places in room than before. Also, you are now using two subs, so the current sub has less work to do. That is great for the longevity of equipment and peace of mind. You also have the option of upping the sub trim level on the AVR if you want to "drive fast and take chances". Most of the people in this area of the forum are looking for more max output, it is not good enough until it gets scary

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post #12 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 03:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Like you stated, you are gaining a more even response and that response will most likely be even in more places in room than before. Also, you are now using two subs, so the current sub has less work to do. That is great for the longevity of equipment and peace of mind. You also have the option of upping the sub trim level on the AVR if you want to "drive fast and take chances". Most of the people in this area of the forum are looking for more max output, it is not good enough until it gets scary


Haha very true. While I do like that I can turn it up and quickly dust off the walls I bought the Rythmik sub due to the tight accurate response and its ability to play music and movies almost equally impressively. That is why I came here. I want to ensure that the driver I pick will compliment the Rythmik in sound quality not only in output. Output is always nice but I’m looking to strike a balance between the ported design but musically accurate and tight.


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post #13 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 03:24 PM
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I can speak for my pro driver doing the movie role and music roles flawlessly, though it is not the most absolute in both categories. I can run sims tomorrow if you're interested.

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post #14 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
I can speak for my pro driver doing the movie role and music roles flawlessly, though it is not the most absolute in both categories. I can run sims tomorrow if you're interested.


Haha yeah I saw your sub in my search for different sub types. That thing is a monster! If I tried to put that in my living room with everything else I’ve got in there now she would toss me a pillow and a blanket and ask my to stay.

I just went ahead and purchased a nx6000D so now I’m fully committed haha just need to decide if I want to get a um18-22 or a SI 18 or try and find the super hard to find ulx 18


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post #15 of 26 Old 11-06-2018, 05:34 PM
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Not all pro driver setups have to be monsters. A pro driver in a cube is potent since they are usually designed for smaller enclosures, who wants to lug massive boxes to gigs? Not as much in the infra range compared to an HT driver, but you are not sticking the pedel to the metal, so it might actually fit your situation better. Couple questions, what's the split between movies and music? What is the driver budget?

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post #16 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 03:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Not all pro driver setups have to be monsters. A pro driver in a cube is potent since they are usually designed for smaller enclosures, who wants to lug massive boxes to gigs? Not as much in the infra range compared to an HT driver, but you are not sticking the pedel to the metal, so it might actually fit your situation better. Couple questions, what's the split between movies and music? What is the driver budget?


Main focus is on creating an optimal video experience however it is in my living room and not a dedicated theater so I do listen to music when I come home and I am getting ready for work etc. most likely it is 75% movie 25% music.

As for driver budget I can’t really say I have one. I don’t plan on spending over $500 when I know the um18-22 can be found for $250 if you time the sales properly. I keep hearing about the um18 or the ulx. Would of likely went with ulx but can’t find it anywhere so decided um18 should be good enough. But since I’ve never built I wanted to see how these two speakers would really pair with my current sub. And if building a Johnny or a cube would be a better match. I would prefer the cube based only on locations I could put it but the Johnny might be a decent compromise.


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post #17 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 05:15 AM
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The graph is each driver at its rated xmax.



Red - UM18 Johnny


Blue - https://www.parts-express.com/lavoce...8-ohm--293-730 Cube


Green - https://www.parts-express.com/bc-18t...-ohm--294-6008 Cube


Orange - https://www.parts-express.com/bc-18d...-ohm--294-6028 Cube (a lot of performance in a small package with this one)


The UM18 still holds up well. The HT driver vs pro driver is more a preference subjective type of thing. The Pro drivers really take off in the mid bass. Either way you will get a good result
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #18 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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The graph is each driver at its rated xmax.



Red - UM18 Johnny


Blue - https://www.parts-express.com/lavoce...8-ohm--293-730 Cube


Green - https://www.parts-express.com/bc-18t...-ohm--294-6008 Cube


Orange - https://www.parts-express.com/bc-18d...-ohm--294-6028 Cube (a lot of performance in a small package with this one)


The UM18 still holds up well. The HT driver vs pro driver is more a preference subjective type of thing. The Pro drivers really take off in the mid bass. Either way you will get a good result


So I have the opportunity to buy a uxl-18 for a very good price only a couple hours away from me. As of right now your graphs make me believe the um18-22 in a Johnny looks really good! If I chose to go with a uxl instead how would that driver do in the smaller boxes compared to the um18-22? Maybe I could build a 18” woofer end table or console table lol wife wouldn’t even know lol


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post #19 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 07:18 AM
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If you can get it at a good price I would do it! The Xmax on the UXL just begs for a huge enclosure, probably not worth being homeless though.... If you could make a piece of furniture and get to 11 cuft and 14 hz tune on a cab you would be able to utilize the xmax to the full with only 1975 watts.



Green UXL Cube
Blue UXL Johnny
Orange UXL Marty table with uknown volume, I am guessing 9 cuft - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...arty-subs.html
Red UM Johnny
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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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Last edited by Red Five; 11-07-2018 at 07:45 AM. Reason: Just a thought
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post #20 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
If you can get it at a good price I would do it! The Xmax on the UXL just begs for a huge enclosure, probably not worth being homeless though.... If you could make a piece of furniture and get to 11 cuft and 14 hz tune on a cab you would be able to utilize the xmax to the full with only 1975 watts.



Green UXL Cube
Blue UXL Johnny
Orange UXL Marty table with uknown volume, I am guessing 9 cuft - https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...arty-subs.html
Red UM Johnny


Wow that big version is incredible haha.

Ok so here is where I am at. Buy the uxl18 put it in a Johnny or comparable. Now I’ve been digging through the forums trying to find something in the Johnny size that is turned into a table. I’ve seen a few build but none with plans and cut list etc.


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post #21 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
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Wow that big version is incredible haha.

Ok so here is where I am at. Buy the uxl18 put it in a Johnny or comparable. Now I’ve been digging through the forums trying to find something in the Johnny size that is turned into a table. I’ve seen a few build but none with plans and cut list etc.


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I do not recall seeing a table build with full cut list either. If you message one of the members that is pretty active and has completed a project, they might be kind enough to share that info with you. My table idea was going to start with a straight Johnny sub then add legs to it and a nice wood top that overhangs about 2" on each side. Next, consult the wife about the paint color for the rest of the cab. John might already have plans for a sub that meets your needs.

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post #22 of 26 Old 11-07-2018, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I do not recall seeing a table build with full cut list either. If you message one of the members that is pretty active and has completed a project, they might be kind enough to share that info with you. My table idea was going to start with a straight Johnny sub then add legs to it and a nice wood top that overhangs about 2" on each side. Next, consult the wife about the paint color for the rest of the cab. John might already have plans for a sub that meets your needs.


Yeah that’s a great idea. I’ve build end tables and even console tables before but never built a sub. Hoping my wood working skills/tools carry over. Would certainly be much easier with a plan laid out. Maybe if @LTD02 has a free chance he can chime in. I’m sure he is busy though. I will say it is outstanding to see a community of enthusiast come together. Always love AVS for this reason. With the amount of knowledge on this forum I feel I can tackle any project.


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post #23 of 26 Old 11-08-2018, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Help choosing a driver.

You are going to hate me but the more I look at the size and the curves with the uxl18 I think the cube might actually match fairly well with the Rythmik fv25hp. Unless I’m way off on this I think the cube will be much easier for me to place throughout the living room than the Johnny which will help smooth FR and that is the main goal over additional headroom.


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post #24 of 26 Old 11-08-2018, 01:06 PM
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The smaller enclosure of the cube will not be a deal breaker reaching your goal. It is the least material and labor intensive out of the cabinet options and has the smallest foot print. I think it will meet your expectations

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #25 of 26 Old 11-08-2018, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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The smaller enclosure of the cube will not be a deal breaker reaching your goal. It is the least material and labor intensive out of the cabinet options and has the smallest foot print. I think it will meet your expectations


Exactly and while I may always wonder what if I can later build a Johnny or mini Marty and just swap the driver. Mini might be the perfect place to start my building adventure.


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post #26 of 26 Old 11-08-2018, 01:26 PM
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That is just it, you can always pull the UXL18 out of the cabinet and put it in something different. If you absolutely love the cube you could always put your FV25 on the market and build a second cube or different cab later on. That would cover most of the cost of the amp and both subwoofers.

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You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen
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