DIYSG 1099 TM/MWW pre-build ?s & build - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 40 Old 11-21-2018, 11:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
Cabs look great. Nice job on the laminate!
Thanks and thanks for the advice you've given. I did have a strange problem with my Diablo flush trim bit - when I trimmed the mdf edges after gluing, it seemed to perform perfectly. When I tested before trimming the laminate, it was cutting into the mdf the roller guide was on. I had to put 4 layers of blue tape on to compensate for that. 3 was too thin and 4 was a tiny bit too thick so I had to sand the edge a little.
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post #32 of 40 Old 11-21-2018, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SDHacker View Post
Thanks and thanks for the advice you've given. I did have a strange problem with my Diablo flush trim bit - when I trimmed the mdf edges after gluing, it seemed to perform perfectly. When I tested before trimming the laminate, it was cutting into the mdf the roller guide was on. I had to put 4 layers of blue tape on to compensate for that. 3 was too thin and 4 was a tiny bit too thick so I had to sand the edge a little.
I would not recommend using the same bits for different jobs. Use the Diablo flush trim bit for rough (MDF, plywood, etc.) trimming.

I use these for initial laminate/veneer trimming: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Bosch-1-4-i...iABEgIyS_D_BwE

And then these for the final trim before using a file to get the edges down to flat against the opposite side: https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Solid-C...bevel+trim+bit

And final trimming/rounding over is done with a file.

Just an FYI for your next project. Your cabs really look good. What laminate did you go with there?
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Sub builds: Yet another Infinity 1260 build | Twins! | Modified V.B.S.S. build | UM12-22 builds | AV stand and sealed UM18s

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post #33 of 40 Old 11-21-2018, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by smcmillan2 View Post
I would not recommend using the same bits for different jobs. Use the Diablo flush trim bit for rough (MDF, plywood, etc.) trimming.

I use these for initial laminate/veneer trimming: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Bosch-1-4-i...iABEgIyS_D_BwE

And then these for the final trim before using a file to get the edges down to flat against the opposite side: https://www.amazon.com/Freud-Solid-C...bevel+trim+bit

And final trimming/rounding over is done with a file.

Just an FYI for your next project. Your cabs really look good. What laminate did you go with there?
Ohhhh - good to know. Like you said, laminate was easy to work with (other than the final trimming - which will be easier with the right bits).

Laminate is Wilsonart Mambo. The back and baffle was done with Vvivid Black brushed metal vinyl.
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HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)
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post #34 of 40 Old 11-29-2018, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by SDHacker View Post
I still have to run audyssey XT32 but I have functioning 1099 LCRs. Running them with with default manual setting. I need to build the 3" high base for the LR speakers but didn't want to wait on that before putting them to use. I ran woofer break-in for over 40 minutes using a 36 Hz sine wave with a free audio tone generator app.

Last picture shows my Klipsch bookshelf speaker on top of the 1099 that replaced it. It's a marked improvement. But with the default manual setting, I find female vocals irritating - a tinny quality that is much worse than the Klipsch. Electric guitar sounds amazing due to that same brightness. I ran the 1099 on left channel and the Klipsch (also the center speaker) or JBL on right channel in stereo Does not come close to JBL L300s but that's comparing a $400 speaker to something that retailed for $1,500 back in late 70's (which would be about $7,000 today according to an online calculator). The JBL comes with 2 L-pads (or attenuators) that control brilliance and presence so they are customized to how I want to hear music. The bookshelf speaker was just overpowered by the 1099. Yikes, the center sounded awful compared to the 1099. I'll try to give another impression after I've either run audyssey or played with manual EQ.

I completed the 1099 center. I'll have to watch some movies (after running audyssey - with the added bass coming from the 1099s compared to the Klipsch small speakers, the integration of the subs with the 1099 needs to improve). I will be running the crossover to the subs at 100 Hz.

I'll also do a post of "what I would do differently" and what I found helpful.
Any new listening impressions, especially the highs, female vocals, etc? I will be building 1099s soon and am concerned about recurring, somewhat negative, characterizations of the highs.
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post #35 of 40 Old 11-30-2018, 11:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avsinkhole View Post
Any new listening impressions, especially the highs, female vocals, etc? I will be building 1099s soon and am concerned about recurring, somewhat negative, characterizations of the highs.
I'll start with the disclaimer that the following is simply 1 person's opinion/perception dictated by the room the speakers are in and as always, YMMV. But I am use to listening to Klipsch and JBL L300 speakers which would be considered "forward" or bright by many so that helps provide a background for my opinions.

I've been concentrating on Movies/TV. Since you asked, I spent the last 2 days listening to music with Audyssey Reference, Flat, and manual EQ. Flat boosts high frequency so it can't be used with the 1099. I have the HF Pad activated on the 3 1099s so that cut a couple of DBs off the tweeter output. With Audyssey Reference curve, most vocalists sound good (male and female). Electric guitar is amazing. The problem is the bass is boosted so much that it overpowers everything. I think the main problem is in the mid-bass since setting the level of the subs down didn't help tame the bass much (using the Reference curve). Two vocalists stick out as exceptions - Avicii and Adele. There is something in their voice that gets accentuated which I find irritating. I listened to different genres, lots of different vocalists and other than those two, vocals sounded fine.

The Flat curve took out the booming bass but also boosted the highs which made the few that I listened to before giving up sound bad.

Manual EQ. The Denon copies the Flat curve to the EQ - wish it let you copy the Reference since I would only need to but the mid-bass. EQ'ing to make Avicii/Adele sound better made others sound flat/dead. Had to boost mid-bass and subs since flat curve seemed to make those frequencies disappear.

Sound stage depth seems to be controlled (at least partly according to what I've read) by having the speakers positioned away from the wall behind the speakers. So a distance of 3 feet seems the standard speakers should be away from the wall. I have mine much closer to the wall so the secondary sound waves bouncing from the wall doesn't help create the sense of depth. So I have a shallow sound stage - there isn't a perceived difference in position of instruments and vocals in terms of depth.

Stereo effect is good. The phantom center is created where I had to check whether I was in stereo mode and the center speaker wasn't activated. This was never true with the small Klipsch Reference series LR I had. I could always easily locate them and the phantom center wasn't created.

The Reference curve is good for movies/TV but not for music (most vocals sound good but the bass is way too much).

I don't have a calibrated mike or software so can't post any response curves.

But having gone through this and not being satisfied with Audyssey curves or manual EQ, I may get the $20 Denon/Marantz Audyssey app which lets you store multiple profiles. So I might create separate Movie and Music profiles. I might even create Thriller Movie, regular movie, and music profiles. I found I have to boost the sub output for some movies while cutting back for most along with TV.

If you use the audyssey app, have a calibrated mike, and REW (Room EQ Wizard), you should check out ratbuddyssey: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...app-files.html
It allows you to customize the app profile on a PC. If I can sneak a mike past my wife, I'm going to try it out. Hmmm, Christmas present?

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
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post #36 of 40 Old 11-30-2018, 12:48 PM
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SD, thanks for the detailed response. As you said, room and placement play a part, but it sounds like I am in for a good deal of EQ experimentation. For now, I only have the center speaker (not assembled yet), which I plan to use to gauge whether to go ahead and get the fronts. Per Erich recommendation, I will be installing the optional resistor and activating the HF pad since I am not installing behind a screen. I wonder if most 1099 owners have similar impressions of the high end.
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post #37 of 40 Old 12-23-2018, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I've had time to run multiple audyssey calibrations, use the graphic EQ on the AVR, buy the audyssey app and run multiple calibrations, fool around with ratbuddysey and see what I like and don't like. I also got a umik and REW to see what changes to the audyssey curve did to the frequency response. All audyssey runs are for the Reference curve - the Flat curve resulted in dull sound.

Audyssey run from the AVR results in too much mid-bass from the 1099s. Those 10 inch woofers can really pump out the bass. For whatever reason, audyssey multeq xt32 boosted the mid-bass. It set the subs fine. It got rid of the irritating sound Adele/Aviici produced when running just the native AVR so all vocalists sound good now.

To try to get rid of the overpowering mid-bass, I tried using the graphic EQ on the AVR and it just wasn't possible to reproduce the dynamics audyssey introduced.

I turned to the audyssey app. It tuned down the mid-bass to acceptable levels while keeping the dynamism of the AVR audyssey run BUT, it failed to produce any volume on the volume check for sub2 so all runs were for only 1 sub. I had to manually add sub2 in but the response curve the app built didn't account for the 2nd sub. Hoping someone has a fix.

I've found that you can't have a all-in-1 response curve that works for HT and music. When I have enough LF to make explosions and monster's footsteps exciting and vibrate the sofa, it is overwhelming in music. I use the AVR's sub control to adjust +2 for HT (for action movies) and -8 for music from the audyssey setting. For normal HT viewing, I set it at -2. Dialog adjustment is set to +2 for HT but -2 for music (or off...found that 0 setting is different from off) if I use DT Neural X or Dolby surround. Music Stereo setting is totally different - don't know what Denon is doing there but maybe Audyssey is used for surround sound but native AVR setting for Stereo. So after establishing a "base" sound curve, you adjust for what you are listening to as best you can.

Using umik and REW, I found that creating a flat response isn't what I want. It produced a dull, "flat" sound. Audyssey Reference introduces peaks and valleys that not only adjusts for your room but adds dynamism...the sound is more exciting and alive. If you are comfortable with moving files between Android/IOS and Windows, ratbuddysey is a windows app (free) for more finely adjusting the response curve for each speaker. REW visually shows what you are hearing. If you perceive too much mid-bass, REW shows you there is a peak in the 300 - 700 Hz range you might want to cut down. Experimenting with boosting/cutting FRs, checking REW results allows you to learn what your ears like. You can then customize the response curve as shown in REW to match what you like. We have different hearing capabilities, different sensitivities to sound and tools like REW and the audyssey app (along with ratbuddyssey) lets you discover the sound you like and adjust the response curve to get close to that sound. It takes a LOT of time and effort.

Ratbuddysey lets you see what Audyssey "heard" for each listening position. It's interesting to see how much of a difference a few inches of movement makes. It also explains why each run of audyssey can produce a unique sound - you can't position the mike exactly the same for each run. The REW results are similarly effected run to run. Do not use the audyssey graphs to change the curve, use the REW graph to decide what to change. YMMV but I found using the REW graph to base changes on was more reliable in producing the results I was wanting.

Since there is no single perfect matching speaker for all environments, everyone is in for some work to fine tune their speakers to their room and preferences.

HT: Vizio PQ65-F1, Denon X3400H, DIYSG 1099 LCR, Klipsch RS-3 ii, R-12SWi, R-112SW, Sony UBP-X700
Music: Accuphase P300 amp, Accuphase C200 pre, JBL L300 (yes, 40 year old equipment)

Last edited by SDHacker; 12-23-2018 at 02:38 PM. Reason: add info
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post #38 of 40 Old 12-24-2018, 05:33 AM
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Can you link to "Ratbuddysey". Google turned up nothing....

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post #39 of 40 Old 12-24-2018, 06:35 AM
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Can you link to "Ratbuddysey". Google turned up nothing....
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...app-files.html
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post #40 of 40 Old 12-24-2018, 06:36 AM
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Thanks, I ended up finding it.... only to discover it wont work with my Denon X4100 as I dont have the Audyssey app
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