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post #1 of 14 Old 11-10-2018, 06:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Subwoofer Dilemma

Hello All,

For a long time, I had a PB1000 on a wooden floor and was happy with it. Then moved to new home and with the sub on the concrete floor, not getting the right bass. So been looking at my options and had been going through all the threads here. Was going to go with two of the Marty cubes with UM-18's.

Then I came across few threads that say that for that chest kick, UM's may not be the right option and I am really into getting that physical chest kicks. So now I am all confused as to which option to go with.

My set up is in the basement - in an L shaped room with a stairway at the L end and doorway on top. Its 16.6 x 25 with the back wall at 31 and 9ft ceiling.

Here are the options that I have been struggling with:
1. Two Marty cubes(or mini's) with UM-18s. (Not sure if 460HO's make it better for what I am looking for)
2. Two VBSS with PA460
3. Two towers with JBL 1200's ( 2 or 3 each) (BB deal is sweat)
4. Any other options?

TBH, I haven't heard a good ULF sub to know how it feels/sounds. So anyone in Colorado that can help with a demo will get a 6pk :-)

BK
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post #2 of 14 Old 11-10-2018, 07:16 PM
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Chest kick is a function in the 50hz to 150hz range, the UM18 are more geared toward <30hz. In an ideal situation some higher tuned VBSS to deal with the mid bass and if you could go up to a Johnny for the UM18s on the low end. You would be looking at an NX1000D for the VBSSs and a NX6000D for the UM18s. Alternatively a B&C 21DS115 can do both well in a cab the size of a full Marty. I went that route

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #3 of 14 Old 11-10-2018, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoykr View Post
Hello All,

For a long time, I had a PB1000 on a wooden floor and was happy with it. Then moved to new home and with the sub on the concrete floor, not getting the right bass. So been looking at my options and had been going through all the threads here. Was going to go with two of the Marty cubes with UM-18's.

Then I came across few threads that say that for that chest kick, UM's may not be the right option and I am really into getting that physical chest kicks. So now I am all confused as to which option to go with.

My set up is in the basement - in an L shaped room with a stairway at the L end and doorway on top. Its 16.6 x 25 with the back wall at 31 and 9ft ceiling.

Here are the options that I have been struggling with:
1. Two Marty cubes(or mini's) with UM-18s. (Not sure if 460HO's make it better for what I am looking for)
2. Two VBSS with PA460
3. Two towers with JBL 1200's ( 2 or 3 each) (BB deal is sweat)
4. Any other options?

TBH, I haven't heard a good ULF sub to know how it feels/sounds. So anyone in Colorado that can help with a demo will get a 6pk :-)

BK
Will the 2 PA460s be an addition to the 2 UM18 Marty cubes? If not, then I'd get 4 VBSS's or maybe even 6 if you can fit them. You'd have all the chest kick you could handle

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post #4 of 14 Old 11-10-2018, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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@Red Five - Not sure I can go for a full Marty :-(

@johnson636 I was thinking of them as separate options. But you are now giving me ideas :-)
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post #5 of 14 Old 11-12-2018, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoykr View Post
For a long time, I had a PB1000 on a wooden floor and was happy with it. Then moved to new home and with the sub on the concrete floor, not getting the right bass. So been looking at my options
Let me just tell you straight up: you'll never be able to vibrate concrete like wood.

I've heard Full Marty's on wood (and concrete).

Even with my 29 subwoofers and 100kW I cannot replicate those vibs on my concrete floor.

vibs are vibs, and spl is spl. They are just not the same, and never will be.

That said: 29 subwoofers can pummel your body in ways that even 4 Full Marty's on wood can't...

You may be able to gain some of the vibs back if you are willing to make a raised floor, say: 2x4's placed sideways with OSB on top (~3" of height lost), or at least a few layers of OSB and whisper mat (<1.5" of height lost).

As for the subwoofers, yeah the HF/RF/HO/UM's are optimized for <40hz, while the PA is optimized for >40hz.
They will both do 10-200hz in the right box, but not optimally...

ULF requires high excursion and sometimes a high mass cone.
Mid-Bass requires a low-mass cone and doesn't need high excursion, it needs surface area and power handling and efficiency, higher ohms and an impedance peak in the mid-bass.

The difference between a 90db/w/m driver and a 100db/w/m driver is only 10db.
But ~10db is a ~10x increase in performance!!! It would take probably 8 RE-18's to equal the mid-bass of 1 B&C 18.

For the same SPL: increased impedance reduces current, current causes heat. (Watts also causes heat.)
In terms of heat and power consumption, using a 90db/w/m 0-4ohm sub for mid-bass is a bad idea, vs 8-ohm 100db/w/m.

Amplifier-strain is cause by two things: current (caused by too low of an ohm), or watts (caused by you cranking the knob too high). In both causes it causes heat or component overload, which makes a dead amp.
To get higher power into higher ohms, set the amp to bridge-mode (and buy a beefy amp, factor in that marketing people lie. After fudge-factors, doubling up power only gets you 3db higher. There are limits.)

The NX and FP amps can output thousands and thousands of watts into 8-ohm, so getting the power it needs is not a problem; and at 100db per watt you won't need much watts to get loud anyways. 4 PA-460's can reach THX at 12ft back. An SVS cube won't be anywhere close to that, most subs show 3ft/1m figures which is a distance that nobody listens at. You lose 10db in the first 10ft.

If you want good <40hz and good >40hz, you need to use both driver types.
It's ok without either, just not optimal...
The PA will run out of excursion, and the UM will run out of thermal-handling.

Mid-bass doesn't have much excursion, so the cone just parks-and-bakes.

The best way to have good bass is to buy as many big cones as you can afford.
Excursion causes distortion.

It takes about 32watts to push 32 18's to 1mm, but it takes 3200watts to push 1 18 to 32mm. Both are the same SPL. The distortion will be zero vs gross.
The array will handling 32watts all-day, you can believe that. The single 18 won't last long at 3-4kW, seconds/minutes.
An array of subs can do things that singles can't dream of.
The more cones and boxes and amps and breakers you can afford, the better... There is no free lunch.
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 11-12-2018 at 10:16 AM.
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post #6 of 14 Old 11-12-2018, 12:59 PM
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Alternatively a B&C 21DS115 can do both well in a cab the size of a full Marty. I went that route
I agree, you won't be doing a MBM thread if you build a couple of these.

8hz ULF TR for the masses and the Cashless. Like a BOSS


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post #7 of 14 Old 11-12-2018, 07:59 PM - Thread Starter
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@BassThatHz thanks for the detailed response. One of these days I will build a theater with that many subs as you

@Gorilla Killa Wasnt really looking into full marties, but may have to start thinking with 21s.
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post #8 of 14 Old 11-14-2018, 05:38 AM
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If there was an enclosure for a B&C 21DS115 that was around 30"x30"x30" would go that route?

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #9 of 14 Old 11-18-2018, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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If there was an enclosure for a B&C 21DS115 that was around 30"x30"x30" would go that route?
Sorry for the late response. I have space to put in two 24" in my front, but not two 30". If we are talking a single 30x3, then it may work.
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post #10 of 14 Old 11-18-2018, 05:26 PM
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For a 21" I think 30" is all the more narrow you want to go for structural integrity and bracing. The 30" cube can be stacked, but if you have any room modes creating nulls adding a second in the same spot will not help with a null. Back to 18s, there is a B&C 18DS115 that is a beast in a Marty cube if you give it the power. It is not as cost effective as its 21 inch sibling. The 460HOs are cheaper and will have nice balance of low bass to mid bass. They are more excursion and power limited than some subs. The UXL18 strikes a nice balance with a good level of excursion for the low end and more mid bass than the UM. I do not have WinISD handy at the moment.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #11 of 14 Old 11-19-2018, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Red.

I am thinking of starting out with just two VBSS's as this is my first DIY. I assume that once I start down this road, will be adding more in the future.

Would it be better to buy an inuke6000DSP now, knowing I may add more subs in future or go with separate amps later and just buy a 3000D now?
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post #12 of 14 Old 11-19-2018, 12:11 PM
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The VBSSs are a good place to start. Since you are going with a cheaper sub it might make sense to balance the costs out with the more expensive amp right away. More money for subs, less money needed for an amplification when the time comes.
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Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #13 of 14 Old 11-25-2018, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bejoykr View Post
Would it be better to buy an inuke6000DSP now, knowing I may add more subs in future or go with separate amps later and just buy a 3000D now?
1. Can you keep from turning up the gain on the amp??? I cannot so would need multiple PA460's. If I only got two, they would not last.
2. Do you have circuitry for multiple amps? If no then a moot point.

If you have self restraint, get the NX6000. No self restraint and multiple outlets, get a 3000.

If bad sound were Faital, good sound would be almost impossible
Killed two Mach5 21s and three UM-18s (and counting?)
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post #14 of 14 Old 11-26-2018, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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"If you have self restraint" - yes this may be a problem
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