Outdoor sub(s) for cheap? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 08:50 AM
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@LTD02 Great design there, as usual. Not to highjack, but I am also looking for a "waterproof" design for an SI HT18 (V1) to use outdoors. Would this box be at all appropriate for that driver?
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post #32 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 08:57 AM
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the port could just as easily be located on the bottom of the cab if you like that.

with the port at the top, if wind were to blow rain into the port, it might (in theory) run down the baffle and get to the driver.





normally if using a single baffle, part of the bracing directly in front of the driver should be cut out just to ensure the driver doesn't contact it under any circumstance. in this case, the pa460 is probably dead if the driver somehow moves forward more than 18mm, so it may be moot.

for example, just to be safe:

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post #33 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dtsdig View Post
@LTD02 Great design there, as usual. Not to highjack, but I am also looking for a "waterproof" design for an SI HT18 (V1) to use outdoors. Would this box be at all appropriate for that driver?
thank you. :-)

at first look, it doesn't appear to be a good choice.



edit: voltage should have been adjusted up on this one, which would increase output by 2-3 db, but the response shape would remain the same.
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post #34 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
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thank you. :-)

at first look, it doesn't appear to be a good choice.
HAHA, at first look, it looks like the opposite of a good choice! Wow. I'll start a new thread for some ideas. Thank you!
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post #35 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 09:18 AM
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Nice design LTD02.
Hmm, top or bottom port.... do i want birds or mice living in my sub?
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post #36 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 09:27 AM
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Nice design LTD02.
Hmm, top or bottom port.... do i want birds or mice living in my sub?


You’d kill all the mice with the concussive force this would put off.


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post #37 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the port could just as easily be located on the bottom of the cab if you like that.

with the port at the top, if wind were to blow rain into the port, it might (in theory) run down the baffle and get to the driver.





normally if using a single baffle, part of the bracing directly in front of the driver should be cut out just to ensure the driver doesn't contact it under any circumstance. in this case, the pa460 is probably dead if the driver somehow moves forward more than 18mm, so it may be moot.

for example, just to be safe:

This design is awesome! I would love it if you could post/send a few more detailed dimensions of the baffles, ports, etc. so I can work up a cut list. Thanks again!!
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post #38 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i just made it up last night for you.

this would have significantly *more* output than the vbss (for 500 watts power add about 27dB), and the efficiency (not shown) of the upper end gets really high owing to the bandpass feature, so it should have crazy punch.

whether it is officially a bandpass or a horn with no flare, i'm not quite sure what to call it. horn with no flare may be more descriptive. :-)

it is kind of like a full-front loaded horn, but trades off a little upper end output for more low end extension.
How many watts to hit 6mm excursion? Can you show the output graph with that amount of power?
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post #39 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 12:57 AM
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How many watts to hit 6mm excursion? Can you show the output graph with that amount of power?
6mm is overhang. the driver is good out to about 12mm or so.

excursion with 500 watts and a 2nd order protective high pass at 25hz.

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post #40 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 01:51 AM
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bracing is required. it doesn't have to follow any specific plan, so long as everything is well braced. i've provided one strategy that uses 2x4's.

pl premium would be a good choice for adhesive as it helps fill gaps. air gaps kill performance.

can tuning will be around 28hz or so, so a protective high pass at around 25hz would be required. 2nd order butterworth 12db/oct.

limit power to about 500 watts. constant, full power, sine waves are never a good idea, so use common sense or the driver may be damaged.

a steep low pass filter at around 100hz or so is recommended. 4th order linkwitz riley, 24db/oct.

try to get the driver as close to the top of the cab as possible.

the extra cutouts in the bracing in front of the driver may not be required, but 0.75" would be the safe bet.

gasket tape for the removable hatch will help keep that air tight.

i've checked the numbers several times, but you never know. :-) best bet is to build one and test. if good, go for a second, third, fourth... :-)

should be a fun sub.



















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post #41 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 03:34 AM
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this is 3times the size of the VBSS but man does it pack one hell of a punch! I would of never thought to try the PA460 in a 6th order.
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post #42 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 03:42 AM
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Could you turn it on its side and put legs on for a bench then have ports aim downward?
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post #43 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 05:51 AM
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The cone on these would probably experience sag if laid vertical. I’d recommend against it.


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post #44 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 06:51 AM
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@LTD02

Could you please post the Hornresp inputs?
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post #45 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
6mm is overhang. the driver is good out to about 12mm or so.

excursion with 500 watts and a 2nd order protective high pass at 25hz.

Good to 12mm? The suspension can barely stretch that far going out.
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post #46 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 09:51 AM
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Are you planning to leave it outside exposed to the elements 24/7? Might be good to at least keep it in an "overhang" area if possible.

As we're wrapping up our pool/patio build now I'm already planning out the outside zones as well for next spring. So far I've collected a number of outdoor speakers and JBL Control outdoor subs. I'd contemplated building but hadn't devoted much time to it yet...this thread has me thinking though...
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post #47 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
Good to 12mm? The suspension can barely stretch that far going out.
xmax is typically at about 1/3 of the gap and usable about 2/3 of the gap or so. mtg90 provided some details here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post39510714

i can't recall one every being fully tested though, so without that, i have to take a guess.

---

edit: this is what i have in my notes on that driver

mtg90 indicates the top plate is about 7.6mm.

xmax should include roughly a third of the gap, which is about 2.53mm, so 6+2.53 = 8.53mm.

"usable" should be somewhere around 1/2 to 2/3 into the gap, or about 6+5.06= 11.06mm.

damage is around 20mm one way

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post #48 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 01:55 PM
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@LTD02

Could you please post the Hornresp inputs?
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post #49 of 54 Old 11-29-2018, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

can tuning will be around 28hz or so, so a protective high pass at around 25hz would be required. 2nd order butterworth 12db/oct.

limit power to about 500 watts. constant, full power, sine waves are never a good idea, so use common sense or the driver may be damaged.

a steep low pass filter at around 100hz or so is recommended. 4th order linkwitz riley, 24db/oct.

.
So, high pass at 25hz and low pass at 100ish. Isn't that high pass set lower than other pa460 builds? I remember seeing some getting high passed closer to 180. Is that due to the nature of bandpass boxes or something else. Do you think the pass off of this at ~100hz would be decent going to Atrium 4s and 6s? What is the easiest way to set the HP/LP with an external amp that does have DSP built in? Should I just run it all off the amp I mentioned in the first post? I can keep the subs on one channel and the rest of the speakers on the other. Should it all just run through a miniDSP? I've got spare 5.1 receivers around if I need them to run some of the filters, but I think I can just run my input straight to the minidsp and out to the amp if I set it up correctly.
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post #50 of 54 Old 11-30-2018, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
So, high pass at 25hz and low pass at 100ish. Isn't that high pass set lower than other pa460 builds? I remember seeing some getting high passed closer to 180. Is that due to the nature of bandpass boxes or something else. Do you think the pass off of this at ~100hz would be decent going to Atrium 4s and 6s? What is the easiest way to set the HP/LP with an external amp that does have DSP built in? Should I just run it all off the amp I mentioned in the first post? I can keep the subs on one channel and the rest of the speakers on the other. Should it all just run through a miniDSP? I've got spare 5.1 receivers around if I need them to run some of the filters, but I think I can just run my input straight to the minidsp and out to the amp if I set it up correctly.
The forward chamber essentially acts as a low pass filter, if you look at the hornresp LTD02 post, you'll see a "table top" like response where the sub has a natural roll off on the high end and low end. The driver in a direct radiating alignment can play quite a bit higher other wise.
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post #51 of 54 Old 11-30-2018, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
So, high pass at 25hz and low pass at 100ish. Isn't that high pass set lower than other pa460 builds? I remember seeing some getting high passed closer to 180. Is that due to the nature of bandpass boxes or something else. Do you think the pass off of this at ~100hz would be decent going to Atrium 4s and 6s? What is the easiest way to set the HP/LP with an external amp that does have DSP built in? Should I just run it all off the amp I mentioned in the first post? I can keep the subs on one channel and the rest of the speakers on the other. Should it all just run through a miniDSP? I've got spare 5.1 receivers around if I need them to run some of the filters, but I think I can just run my input straight to the minidsp and out to the amp if I set it up correctly.
the pa460 builds have tunings all over the map. the protective high pass filter is typically set just below the tuning frequency. for this cab tuning is around 28hz, so a 25hz protective high pass is good.

some pa460 builds and other subwoofer builds have a 200hz or so low pass, but most folks aren't relying on that to cross to their mains. their avr takes care of that and is typically in the 80-100hz ballpark.

running pool speakers in mono is fine off one channel of your pro amp. just be sure to use the mini-dsp to mix the left and right channels together so you don't lose any content. with the extra 5.1 avr's, it may work out easiest to run the mains with that depending on what you had in mind for sources and volume control.

if you want to put a high pass on the main speakers, a 2nd order 12db/oct at 120hz would be a good start. (this is what a typical avr does on the speaker side when you choose the crossover target).

set the low pass on the subwoofer to 4th order 24db/oct at 120hz and see how it all sounds. (this is what a typical avr does on the subwoofer side when you choose the crossover target).
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post #52 of 54 Old 05-05-2019, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I just finished the build and got it set up outside. For testing I just hooked up the pro amp to the sub out of the receiver and it sounded great. In the real location I use a Sonos:amp with sub outs. For some reason the same amp doesn't seem to like the Sonos sub out signal. It's only about 10% volume and sounds like junk. I tried the Sonos sub out with a normal home theater sub and it sounds great, so there's an issue between the Sonos and the pro amp. I tried both xlr and 1/4 inputs with the same response. What are recommendations to power this sub? Is there a decent plate amp to try?
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post #53 of 54 Old 05-06-2019, 09:10 AM
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Outdoor sub(s) for cheap?

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Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
I just finished the build and got it set up outside. For testing I just hooked up the pro amp to the sub out of the receiver and it sounded great. In the real location I use a Sonos:amp with sub outs. For some reason the same amp doesn't seem to like the Sonos sub out signal. It's only about 10% volume and sounds like junk. I tried the Sonos sub out with a normal home theater sub and it sounds great, so there's an issue between the Sonos and the pro amp. I tried both xlr and 1/4 inputs with the same response. What are recommendations to power this sub? Is there a decent plate amp to try?

The level is too low. What amp?
Try an unbalanced to balanced level converter, see below.

Want to add this for clarification, the balanced and unbalanced are not applicable to your issue, thats just the cinduit the signal passes, has nothing to do with level, this box will raise the level in a clean way for you and change it to a balalnced connection for your amp as well, so what the balanced gains for you over a long run is outside noise attenuation due to an unbalanced long run acting like an antenna and pulling in extraneous electrical noise.

You dont want to do a plate due to weather, but if you mount it indoors youre fine. Dayton makes a 500w and 1000w (not actual output #s obviosuly) sub plate thats relatively, inexepnsive however Id go with the converter. Do a WTB in classifieds seems these show up occasionally:

https://www.parts-express.com/art-cl...erter--245-868


Im really eager to see how this came out! Post pics and would love to see an output sweep of it outdoors if you can?

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Last edited by FOHTech; 05-06-2019 at 09:47 AM.
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post #54 of 54 Old 05-06-2019, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
I just finished the build and got it set up outside. For testing I just hooked up the pro amp to the sub out of the receiver and it sounded great. In the real location I use a Sonos:amp with sub outs. For some reason the same amp doesn't seem to like the Sonos sub out signal. It's only about 10% volume and sounds like junk. I tried the Sonos sub out with a normal home theater sub and it sounds great, so there's an issue between the Sonos and the pro amp. I tried both xlr and 1/4 inputs with the same response. What are recommendations to power this sub? Is there a decent plate amp to try?

The level is too low. What amp?
Try an unbalanced to balanced level converter, see below.

Want to add this for clarification, the balanced and unbalanced are not applicable to your issue, thats just the cinduit the signal passes, has nothing to do with level, this box will raise the level in a clean way for you and change it to a balalnced connection for your amp as well, so what the balanced gains for you over a long run is outside noise attenuation due to an unbalanced long run acting like an antenna and pulling in extraneous electrical noise.

You dont want to do a plate due to weather, but if you mount it indoors youre fine. Dayton makes a 500w and 1000w (not actual output #s obviosuly) sub plate thats relatively, inexepnsive however Id go with the converter. Do a WTB in classifieds seems these show up occasionally:

https://www.parts-express.com/art-cl...erter--245-868


Im really eager to see how this came out! Post pics and would love to see an output sweep of it outdoors if you can?

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The converter is preferred and will be here in 2 days. What do I need to run a sweep (I'm not an audiophile by any means), but I've got a laptop and can follow instructions.. 😁
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