Outdoor sub(s) for cheap? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 39Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 54 Old 11-23-2018, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Outdoor sub(s) for cheap?

I'm buying a new place with a pool area and need to set up some tunes. I've got a crown xls 802 amp leftover to run the sub(s) which pushes [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] I plan on running Polk atrium 6s or 8s around the pool deck/patio and I need some low end to go with them. I know horns are usually the best option outdoor. Considering size doesn't matter much, should I look at lilwreckers, picowreckers, f20s, something from Bill F? Ideally, I'd keep costs down, so let me know your thoughts. This will be 99% music use.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 54 Old 11-23-2018, 05:21 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Samps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,728
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked: 901
None of those horns. Maybe one of bills other horns T48 possibly.

I'd just get a pair of the Dayton PA460s and place them in 5-6 cube boxes tuned to 35-40hz. Or 4 of them if you need that much bass.
LTD02, Craig S King and bebb like this.
Samps is online now  
post #3 of 54 Old 11-23-2018, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
None of those horns. Maybe one of bills other horns T48 possibly.

I'd just get a pair of the Dayton PA460s and place them in 5-6 cube boxes tuned to 35-40hz. Or 4 of them if you need that much bass.
What is the reason you think the 460s are a better option in a simple ported box? Should I look at some scoops, hogs or a keystone?
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 54 Old 11-23-2018, 06:02 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Samps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,728
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked: 901
Those previous horns are designed for home theater. You do not need 20hz around a pool. 35hz is a good target. You can get a lot louder a lot easier at 35hz than 20hz. In the same size box as a lilwrecker you could build a simple ported cab with four budget 18s that would destroy the wrecker from 35-150hz.

The Keystone is a good option if you really want a horn. Not necessarily a budget option though. I think it needs a decent driver. An Othorn or Skhorn would be a killer option if you can jump that high.

But honestly, a pair of PA460s are so cheap you won't even worry about damaging them, and they will get seriously loud at 40hz. Which is all you need for a good party.

How loud are you trying to get?
LTD02 and bebb like this.
Samps is online now  
post #5 of 54 Old 11-23-2018, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Those previous horns are designed for home theater. You do not need 20hz around a pool. 35hz is a good target. You can get a lot louder a lot easier at 35hz than 20hz. In the same size box as a lilwrecker you could build a simple ported cab with four budget 18s that would destroy the wrecker from 35-150hz.

The Keystone is a good option if you really want a horn. Not necessarily a budget option though. I think it needs a decent driver. An Othorn or Skhorn would be a killer option if you can jump that high.

But honestly, a pair of PA460s are so cheap you won't even worry about damaging them, and they will get seriously loud at 40hz. Which is all you need for a good party.

How loud are you trying to get?
Makes sense. What box do you recommend for two of the 460s? Just a cube with a simple slot port?
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #6 of 54 Old 11-23-2018, 08:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Samps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,728
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked: 901
A simple ported cab with either a slot or round plastic port is good. If you're familiar with winisd or hornresp then look for for something around 6 cubic feet tuned to 35hz. A 6" port would be good for each sub or comparable slot.

If you can afford a little more, the BC RBX18 models better but costs twice as much.
Trimlock likes this.
Samps is online now  
post #7 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 06:05 AM
Advanced Member
 
Craig S King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 658
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 351 Post(s)
Liked: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
Makes sense. What box do you recommend for two of the 460s? Just a cube with a simple slot port?


@LTD02 Designed a VBSS variant that is tuned to 31hz, for music. I'm running a pair of them with the PA460s entirely for music, off of 1 channel of my NX3000D and am very happy. I believe the sizes and specs are in the VBSS thread.
jujuman200 and bebb like this.
Craig S King is offline  
post #8 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 08:11 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Samps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,728
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked: 901
PA460 in 7 cubic feet tuned to 30hz vs 35hz. Either is a good fit for that driver.


Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	460 30v35.JPG
Views:	180
Size:	127.1 KB
ID:	2486786  
LTD02 and bebb like this.
Samps is online now  
post #9 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 08:42 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post
@LTD02 Designed a VBSS variant that is tuned to 31hz, for music. I'm running a pair of them with the PA460s entirely for music, off of 1 channel of my NX3000D and am very happy. I believe the sizes and specs are in the VBSS thread.
I've found several LTD02 designs and one thing that I'd like to look at is some sort of "protected" design like a 6th order bandpass so I could keep the woofers out of the weather as much as possible? Has that (can that) been done with the PA460? What about something like the Kariflex/paraflex type design? something similar was talked about in this thread but I didn't see anything actually built.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #10 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 09:44 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Samps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,728
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked: 901
If you don't mind building horns then Bill's T48 or T60 would work and not be very expensive. There's a few good tapped horns over at diyaudio that you could research. But tapped horns don't have much protection for the driver.

The skhorn would be a great fit for your needs if you can afford the drivers.
Craig S King likes this.
Samps is online now  
post #11 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 10:10 AM
Senior Member
 
K9woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: MB
Posts: 355
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 119
How low does it need to play?
K9woofer is offline  
post #12 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 10:53 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
How low does it need to play?
almost totally music, so 32/34 hz tuning would be fine
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #13 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
If you don't mind building horns then Bill's T48 or T60 would work and not be very expensive. There's a few good tapped horns over at diyaudio that you could research. But tapped horns don't have much protection for the driver.

The skhorn would be a great fit for your needs if you can afford the drivers.
I initially thought about the t48/t60 but the previous poster recommended the pa460 designs. I looked at the skhorn thread and the first post mentions driver options but I couldn't find where those were. I love the design for skhorn, but it looks like the pa460 and t48/60 would do much better 140hz and up to blend with the smaller outdoor speakers I'll have.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #14 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Just a thought.. would it be possible/advisable to create a couch area with down firing pa460s with front firing slot ports? I'm planning on treating the 460s with some PE wet look to help weatherize them. I was reading the drivers would need about 4" feet to have proper airflow which I could do. Just trying to brainstorm ideas.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #15 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 08:07 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,402
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
Just a thought.. would it be possible/advisable to create a couch area with down firing pa460s with front firing slot ports? I'm planning on treating the 460s with some PE wet look to help weatherize them. I was reading the drivers would need about 4" feet to have proper airflow which I could do. Just trying to brainstorm ideas.

While it is certainly possible to utilize down firing drivers, keep in mind this adds a bit of a low pass filtering to the device, though most pro drivers have a rising response which will mitigate this issue compared to low efficiency home drivers.



Ports would be fine down facing, this will also discourage rodents / animals from entering the enclosure without your express consent. Screen applied over the inner port ends will also be a good deterrent.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
michael hurd is offline  
post #16 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 09:32 PM
Senior Member
 
K9woofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: MB
Posts: 355
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 180 Post(s)
Liked: 119
I wouldn't down fire the pa460. I've noticed visible sag from storing used units pointing up. They have very soft suspension.
K9woofer is offline  
post #17 of 54 Old 11-24-2018, 09:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
michael hurd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,402
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
I wouldn't down fire the pa460. I've noticed visible sag from storing used units pointing up. They have very soft suspension.

Good point, I had not calculated whether the driver was suitable for down or up firing use.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
michael hurd is offline  
post #18 of 54 Old 11-25-2018, 02:41 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
I wouldn't down fire the pa460. I've noticed visible sag from storing used units pointing up. They have very soft suspension.
Thanks. This is what I needed. Looks like it's back to the drawing board. Any ideas to consider?
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #19 of 54 Old 11-25-2018, 04:24 PM
Advanced Member
 
bebb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Middle Illinois
Posts: 572
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 218 Post(s)
Liked: 156
+1 for the PA460's using the @LTD02 design in the V.B.S.S.

If bad sound were Faital, good sound would be almost impossible
Killed two Mach5 21s and three UM-18s (and counting?)
bebb is offline  
post #20 of 54 Old 11-25-2018, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bebb View Post
+1 for the PA460's using the @LTD02 design in the V.B.S.S.
Do you have a link to his design? I've been through the 40+ pages on vbss and see a ton of posts by LTD02, just can't find the plans.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #21 of 54 Old 11-27-2018, 12:08 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,146
Mentioned: 820 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2909 Post(s)
Liked: 3590
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
Do you have a link to his design? I've been through the 40+ pages on vbss and see a ton of posts by LTD02, just can't find the plans.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post56120796

post 789 in the thread.

this one is tuned slightly higher:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...hest-kick.html
unretarded likes this.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #22 of 54 Old 11-27-2018, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
Thank you!

Quick question: with port dimensions of 1.5" x 22" results 14.6:1. I thought it was recommended to keep that ratio under 9:1 or 8:1. is there a reason to avoid something closer to 2" or 2.5" that would get that ratio closer to recommended? I realize that would necessitate a longer port, but I just wondered if it mattered at all. I realize plenty of people have built and raved about this design, but I guess I'm just curious about the thought behind this.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #23 of 54 Old 11-27-2018, 10:55 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,146
Mentioned: 820 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2909 Post(s)
Liked: 3590
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
Thank you!

Quick question: with port dimensions of 1.5" x 22" results 14.6:1. I thought it was recommended to keep that ratio under 9:1 or 8:1. is there a reason to avoid something closer to 2" or 2.5" that would get that ratio closer to recommended? I realize that would necessitate a longer port, but I just wondered if it mattered at all. I realize plenty of people have built and raved about this design, but I guess I'm just curious about the thought behind this.
i'm not quite sure what to make of such 'rules of thumb'. if there is a brace running down the middle, does that make it two ports and so reduce the ratio by 50%? i generally try to make ports more in the way that you describe, but oftentimes the narrower ones (as in this case) seem to work fine.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #24 of 54 Old 11-27-2018, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
i'm not quite sure what to make of such 'rules of thumb'. if there is a brace running down the middle, does that make it two ports and so reduce the ratio by 50%? i generally try to make ports more in the way that you describe, but oftentimes the narrower ones (as in this case) seem to work fine.
I certainly don't have the answers, just a thought that I had looking at the design. It would make sense that the brace divides the port into essentially 2 identical ports. Thanks for the work you do. I'll be building 2 of these to turn into outdoor endtables out by the pool. I just need to find the best way to "waterproof" the subs the best that I can.
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #25 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 12:44 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,146
Mentioned: 820 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2909 Post(s)
Liked: 3590
if you want to try something adventurous, perhaps something like this?

this is a simple vertical ported bandpass. port cab is tuned to 28hz or so.

front section increases output.

design would be waterproof.

driver mounts from the inside.

bracing (not shown) would be required, but overall, not an overly complex build.





removable rear hatch for driver access


frequency response of this sub (gray) vs. ported design with same tuning (black), 1w1m 2pi space



edit: forgot to mention, design is for PA460 driver.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	w1.png
Views:	128
Size:	14.6 KB
ID:	2488410   Click image for larger version

Name:	w2.png
Views:	124
Size:	27.3 KB
ID:	2488412   Click image for larger version

Name:	w3.png
Views:	125
Size:	23.1 KB
ID:	2488414   Click image for larger version

Name:	w4.png
Views:	125
Size:	9.1 KB
ID:	2488416  
curtisG, eXa, dtsdig and 4 others like this.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #26 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 04:52 AM
Member
 
ejh2854's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: near Charlotte, NC USA
Posts: 134
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 43
Cover the openings with screen to keep the critters out, and that design looks killer.

FWIW I built a BFM T39 (LAB12 inside) for my half-acre-ish backyard, and it had nooooo trouble filling that space on a very modest amp.

.

There is no Honor in Mediocrity
ejh2854 is offline  
post #27 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 05:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,054
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 389 Post(s)
Liked: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
if you want to try something adventurous, perhaps something like this?



this is a simple vertical ported bandpass. port cab is tuned to 28hz or so.



front section increases output.



design would be waterproof.



driver mounts from the inside.



bracing (not shown) would be required, but overall, not an overly complex build.











removable rear hatch for driver access





frequency response of this sub (gray) vs. ported design with same tuning (black), 1w1m 2pi space







edit: forgot to mention, design is for PA460 driver.


Damn, even for a big box that is a nice design.

Do you have a pile of designs for every situation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Trimlock is offline  
post #28 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
Member
 
BurtonSnol3order's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
if you want to try something adventurous, perhaps something like this?

this is a simple vertical ported bandpass. port cab is tuned to 28hz or so.

front section increases output.

design would be waterproof.

driver mounts from the inside.

bracing (not shown) would be required, but overall, not an overly complex build.





removable rear hatch for driver access


frequency response of this sub (gray) vs. ported design with same tuning (black), 1w1m 2pi space



edit: forgot to mention, design is for PA460 driver.
This design looks amazing! Thank you! Looking at the graphs of this vs your V.B.S.S., this appears to be a little lower output? Is that correct? I'm not scared of a harder build (especially with the much more waterproof nature of this design. Is there by chance anyone who has posted a build thread for this design?
BurtonSnol3order is offline  
post #29 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 08:30 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,146
Mentioned: 820 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2909 Post(s)
Liked: 3590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Damn, even for a big box that is a nice design.
Do you have a pile of designs for every situation?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
lol, thanks, and not really. :-)

i just started playing around with some "waterproof" concepts last night and that was the third attempt.
Trimlock likes this.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
post #30 of 54 Old 11-28-2018, 08:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
LTD02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,146
Mentioned: 820 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2909 Post(s)
Liked: 3590
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurtonSnol3order View Post
This design looks amazing! Thank you! Looking at the graphs of this vs your V.B.S.S., this appears to be a little lower output? Is that correct? I'm not scared of a harder build (especially with the much more waterproof nature of this design. Is there by chance anyone who has posted a build thread for this design?
i just made it up last night for you.

this would have significantly *more* output than the vbss (for 500 watts power add about 27dB), and the efficiency (not shown) of the upper end gets really high owing to the bandpass feature, so it should have crazy punch.

whether it is officially a bandpass or a horn with no flare, i'm not quite sure what to call it. horn with no flare may be more descriptive. :-)

it is kind of like a full-front loaded horn, but trades off a little upper end output for more low end extension.
curtisG, Samps and unretarded like this.

Listen. It's All Good.
LTD02 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off