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post #31 of 66 Old 12-19-2018, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
HTM-1010 center channel was finished up recently as a 2.5way design. They use a new center channel "SEOS" waveguide that I actually had designed/made up over a year ago.....it was a secret project!
Any idea what the dimensions on the HTM-1010 center will be?

Awesome work!

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post #32 of 66 Old 12-19-2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
It's square shaped so you can get the drivers closer together for a horizontal MTM, 70x70 coverage.
...and @Eric H , when will we get a look at the new HTM-1010? Sounds very interesting.
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post #33 of 66 Old 12-19-2018, 08:17 PM
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I'll try to grab a photo tomorrow. Finish is nothing fancy at the moment, just a bare MDF cabinet.
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post #34 of 66 Old 12-20-2018, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The Fusion-8's are in limbo right now.

I'm debating if more flat packs should be made up because there didn't seem to be much love for the newer hemp coned greenish colored woofers. I still have some of those woofers here, but not enough to be used with the number of flat packs I'd have to reorder. So I'm wondering if a complete redesign should be done.


10dbdown, Tux will be getting me all the info on the Motus 3-way soon.
I really liked the Fusion 8 bookshelf/tower/center for the gap it fills in the lineup. Smaller high efficiency and a center channel. I'd even say, put them back up without flatpacks. As of now the only horizontal center option is the 1099.

I'm interested in the new 3 ways.
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post #35 of 66 Old 12-20-2018, 02:06 PM
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the HTM 10 mtm design makes me think of the 88 special,

keeping the woofers close together wrt to ,iirc, elimination of comb filtering / interference

if mtg90 says it's good, it's probably even better . .

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post #36 of 66 Old 12-20-2018, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
the HTM 10 mtm design makes me think of the 88 special,

keeping the woofers close together wrt to ,iirc, elimination of comb filtering / interference

if mtg90 says it's good, it's probably even better . .
Agreed!
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post #37 of 66 Old 12-20-2018, 06:50 PM
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Camera battery died while I was taking pictures, those won't be too much longer.

Unfortunately you can't cheat physics and with 10" woofers in a horizontal MTM crossed at 1200hz even as a 2.5 way I won't lie off axis response is not the best. Ideally sweet spot for listening positions on this one are within +-15 degrees. Upright it has very good horizontal behavior and they would make excellent L/R or LCR speakers positioned that way as well, the 99dB/W sensitivity being the highest of the HTM lineup.
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post #38 of 66 Old 12-20-2018, 07:14 PM
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would angling the baffle similar to what jbl and others did with their line array setups help with off axis performance at all?
alternatively, would switching back to an 8 as jeff used in the 88 lend any benefit?
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post #39 of 66 Old 12-20-2018, 09:42 PM
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Angled baffle like that might help but it would make assembly and flat pack a whole lot more difficult. HTM-8 center channel is not out of the question but I don't expect huge differences in off axis response there.

Here are the photos of the HTM-1010. Ignore the damage my cat did to the acoustic panels


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post #40 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 07:01 AM
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Can't fight physics!

Going a 2.5 way with 10's makes sense but as always, the center-to-center distance rules the game. My first "fresh sheet of paper" speaker build back in 2011 was a horizontal center with four 5.25" woofers, a 30mm WaveCor tweeter and it was configured as a 2.5 way crossing at 550Hz and 1,800 Hz. It worked well with my L/R at the time--as far as I could get it. I "nested" the large dome tweeter up at the edge of the baffle and the tweeter/mid-woofer frames were touching to get the C2C distance at one octave. My only major complaint with it was efficiency, not bad at around 91dB but I needed more.

These days I use an 88 Special as a center because it would fit my heavily modified furnture to contain the thing. Really liked the 1099 but it was larger than the frame of my furniture no matter how I sliced it.

The HTM 1010 looks interesting and being a 2.5 way--optimised as far as you can go with that design. My issue is simply this, it is about the same size as the 1099 so....why? The HTM series needs a horizontal center so take the 16 ohm HTM 10 inchers, the HTM compression driver and the 1099 mids to make a "HTM 1099 Center". Sure, it won't "match" because of the mids but a 70 x 70 degree horn won't "match" the SEOS 90 x 45 horn anyway--so compromise is inherent in the design. At least the woofers, compression driver and horn will "match". The only real positive I see with the 1010 over the 1099 is it will be slightly smaller--but not by much because it runs the ports on the sides (I would of put the ports above/below the small horn to cut the width) Running 8's instead of 10's still has the center-to-center issue but at least it is considerably smaller than the 1010/1099. If you spent the bucks to get 16 ohm 8 inch HTM drivers, then it would be easy to make an "HTM 898 Center" or use the HTM compression driver in the 10" SEOS horn, the two 5" mids under it and the 8's flanking it on either side. To make the bezel as compact as possible, use the single ports of the Fusion 8's and place them under the 8's to cut the width because ports are not taking up space on the sides. This will cut the width down to around 30" wide or slightly smaller but still have at least 97dB or higher 1w/1m of efficiency. I pondered why the HTM 8 was delayed for a year after the design was finished and the pictures of it leaked on the net--I assumed because it was waiting for a center channel to "match".

I seriously thought of going with HTM 8's this past spring as LCR and rebuild my Fusion 10's as high powered rear surrounds--glad I scrapped that idea and went with the 88 Special to finish my LCR. Just from a design standpoint, I would prefer the 1099 but went with the 88 Special for width issues. Now that the 1010 is beta, I'm glad I went that way because I need a very good center with rather wide dispersion (better than +/- 15 degrees) It is good to have options so the HTM is for screen use, the 99 series is for horizontal centers and people that prefer 3-ways with the remaining Fusion 8 and 88 Special probably marked for elimination in the future. I can see them going away when the HTM 8 arrives.

I do like the 70 x 70 horn for surrounds--the HTM-6 with that horn would fit Dolby's dispersion demands for surrounds (54 degreex X 54 degrees when aimed at MLP) The "HTM 6S" for surround with that wider dispersion horn would work well for surround speakers. Maybe throw together an HTM-8S with the same horn for better flexibility for surround speakers due to running the smaller horn. Once a person starts hanging speakers everywhere, the size and flexibility to make them fit becomes far more critical. Mixing that 70x70 with the HTM 6 neo woofer would make a very small, light weight speaker for Atmos and give wider dispersion than the typical SEOS horn allows. Sounds like a win to me!

Thanks for the update, hope your rest did the trick and looking forward to the polar charts/graphs for the upcoming 10/12/15" coaxials rolling out next month.
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post #41 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Camera battery died while I was taking pictures, those won't be too much longer.

Unfortunately you can't cheat physics and with 10" woofers in a horizontal MTM crossed at 1200hz even as a 2.5 way I won't lie off axis response is not the best. Ideally sweet spot for listening positions on this one are within +-15 degrees. Upright it has very good horizontal behavior and they would make excellent L/R or LCR speakers positioned that way as well, the 99dB/W sensitivity being the highest of the HTM lineup.
Overall it sounds as if this could be a fine choice for a larger theater with longer throw distances so that a primary seating row of several seats is well-covered...or a small theater with a narrower row of a fewer seats and toed/aimed L/Rs. The sensitivity speaks to a larger theater, too.
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post #42 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 10:05 AM
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It always makes me a little nervous to see each new DIYSG design get a mixed reception. The delays in getting various announced designs actually available for sale on the DIYSG website suggests that resources are stretched thin for the number of different designs being considered. Every speaker design offers a different set of compromises that appeals to some more than others and there seems to be an unending demand for an ever greater variety of designs with a slightly different mix of pros and cons. Over time this can be discouraging to someone with limited resources trying to please all the people all the time, so I just hope that @Eric H doesn't get burned out trying to do too much.
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post #43 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 11:07 AM
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while I had expected more square-ish

and in a even more detached from reality,

a pair of 10's under an 18" SEOS horn

I LOVE MY HTM 6's . .

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post #44 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
The HTM 1010 looks interesting and being a 2.5 way--optimised as far as you can go with that design. My issue is simply this, it is about the same size as the 1099 so....why? The HTM series needs a horizontal center so take the 16 ohm HTM 10 inchers, the HTM compression driver and the 1099 mids to make a "HTM 1099 Center". Sure, it won't "match" because of the mids but a 70 x 70 degree horn won't "match" the SEOS 90 x 45 horn anyway--so compromise is inherent in the design. At least the woofers, compression driver and horn will "match".
Originally when envisioning the HTM line there wasn't going to be a horizontal center channel design but there ended up being a lot of demand for one. I knew going into it that here would have to be compromises in the design. So this was meant to be a matching center channel for people who already have HTM's, voiced the same to allow the most seamless transition used as a center with the HTM-8/10/12. Yes the waveguide is different but the dispersion characteristics of the waveguide won't really cause much change in sound.

Adding midranges to this design would have changed the phase response and that would no longer allow seamless blending with two way HTM L/R speakers. If someone does not already have speakers and wants an L/C/R set that has matching horizontal center channel with more ideal coverage then they should go with 1099's.

Also this design isn't a brick wall at +-15 degrees, that's just the ideal listening window with minimal noticable change the frequency response.
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post #45 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 03:07 PM
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Over time this can be discouraging to someone with limited resources trying to please all the people all the time, so I just hope that @Eric H doesn't get burned out trying to do too much.
I don't really get too discouraged, but I do start running out of room and of course time to get things up on the site.

The HTM's were originally just going to be two designs. HTM-12 and HTM-6 for surrounds. If a person needed a short center channel....the 1099 models might be the better choice. Seemed like a good idea. I even debated if the HTM-10 was needed and no horizontal center was ever planned.

People were asking about an 8" version but there aren't many 8" woofers with a neo magnet. Celestion has one, so we went ahead and made up the HTM-8. They happened to have 50 of the woofers in their warehouse so I didn't have to get a lot of them. The problem is that once they go on the site they'll get ordered and then people will likely want a matching dual woofer HTM-8 center channel. Well there isn't a 16 or 4 ohm version of that woofer, so what should be done? Try to get a custom 8" from Eminence? If so, what happens to the original model with the Celestion woofer? That's why I've been slow to get the HTM-8 on the site.

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post #46 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 03:24 PM
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The reason that a more square shaped center channel wasn't done (that looked like the 88-Special) is because it would end up being the same height as the regular HTM-10. And if you can't fit that model as a center, you definitely wouldn't fit a dual woofer 88-Special type design either. So it had to be the horizontal set up.

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post #47 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 03:26 PM
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I absolutely love the look. I have been really looking at HTM 12s/10s because I think the 1099s are just wayyy too much speaker for my space. Hell the HTM12s are way too much speaker for my room but I am still leaning that way. The whole thing that has been holding me up was a center channel. I don't have enough vertical space to fit any of the HTMs upright, but I have plenty of horizontal space. I was ready to just pull the trigger and go with a phantom center but this def pushes me towards the 10s now. The only gripe is that +/-15 degrees . When I look at my layout it is going to hit the MLP and maybe one more seat in the front row if my wife wants to cuddle. It does hit 90% of the bar which is nice but it completely misses the rest of my off axis seating.

When would this be ready to order???
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post #48 of 66 Old 12-21-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The reason that a more square shaped center channel wasn't done (that looked like the 88-Special) is because it would end up being the same height as the regular HTM-10. And if you can't fit that model as a center, you definitely wouldn't fit a dual woofer 88-Special type design either. So it had to be the horizontal set up.
thanks for the follow up and clarification. I love that center design n will set aside one room for an entry HTM line setup.
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post #49 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 06:42 AM
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I think it's more important to have a complete line of mains and surrounds than a lot of choices.

The htms are one of the most promising designs imo, proven and far different than any commercial offerings.

Getting the is out to complete the line....and a horizontal center achieves having a complete line.

Imo more important to have the htm8 and the horizontal center than have say 6 different design options.

The difference between the 6 and 10 is quite big...in response and size. The 8s are important to those of us looking for a matching set which was the original premise.

Although neo is part of the design I'm not sure a standard 8in driver would ruin the design...just my random thoughts
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post #50 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 08:02 AM
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I figured it would be good to stick with a neo magnet 8" woofer. If not for that, the HTM-8's would have been done a long time ago. I've got about 10 different 8" samples here that could have been used.

Also, the Deltalites went up in price a couple months ago so I thought a cheaper version should be offered at some point in 2019. I talked to someone at Eminence about it and they said they might be able to get us a couple samples of good 10" and 12" woofers that are priced well.

What we should do is start a group buy on the SEOS-18 in plastic.

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post #51 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 08:26 AM
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I think it's more important to have a complete line of mains and surrounds than a lot of choices.

The htms are one of the most promising designs imo, proven and far different than any commercial offerings. ...
I agree with this. Another area where there are few competing commercial offerings is coaxials. The Volt family and the upcoming Kappalite-based coaxials have little commercial competition and really fill a hole in the market.

DIYSG really holds a unique position in the speaker market. While most of the regulars in this section of the forum are hardcore DIYers, the fact that DIYSG offers CNC flat packs and pre-made crossovers opens things up for the larger number who lack woodworking tools and soldering skills. As such I've recommended considering DIYSG to people asking for advice on what finished speakers to buy in the Speakers section of the forum. Since I'm one of the many who lack woodworking tools and soldering skills I figure if I would be comfortable going with a DIYSG kit that almost anyone could handle it.
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post #52 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 10:11 AM
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Changes can be made to the HTM line if you guys think it should be expanded. Like a cheaper line without neo magnets, the current ones, and then higher end models. Each size can share the same enclosures, just switch out the baffles.

Honestly we just figured it would be two HTM models and then the Fusion-8's would return, but called the Alchemy's for the smaller speakers with matching centers. I realize that there are no small high output horizontal centers right now, but some of those will be worked on soon.

Eventually I was hoping to redo the Fusions into a more full range type speaker. But it's difficult guessing what people want with those.
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post #53 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 10:17 AM
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But it's difficult guessing what people want with those.
If you offer it, They will buy. Lame off shoot from Field of Dreams.


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post #54 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 10:24 AM
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Hey Erich if you are willing to offer different tiered HTM that would amazing , as you know I am patiently waiting for those HTM8s and if you now can offer the possibility of a higher end version that’s exciting news.

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airc,

Erich is on record for calling the price of a SEOS 18" "eye watering' . .

A group buy "possibility" as hinted / suggested- maybe slightly less eye watering . .

so maybe . . . many of us could be miserable together?

for no good science oriented reason,

an 18 over a pair for kickass 10's seems close to full range L/C/R territory

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post #56 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 12:22 PM
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My vote would be for SEOS 18 with top and bottom 15" in a WTW. I love the cinema 10 max, but always wanted a bigger woofer to run without subs when the wife and kid are asleep. A 12" or 15" WTW configuration would be the bee's knees!
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post #57 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 12:36 PM
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^+1

given the really f*ckin' awesome sound field of my HTM 6's in stereo , with subs

and my experiences with the F15's, with subs

as suggested above

a room would need to be at least 14-16 feet wide, maybe 20-24 deep

and well treated

the assumption of an 8' ceiling limit, bummer

wow

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post #58 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 01:04 PM
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Eminence made some really nice 8" woofer samples with neo magnets. The problem is that they use some custom parts and would cost *more* than the 10" Deltalite. And because kits are priced around retail cost for the parts, the HTM-8 using those woofers would have come in more than the HTM-10. So that idea was temporarily scrapped.

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post #59 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 02:04 PM
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^ bummer . . . .

did I happen to mention that the HTM6's will prove the actual existence of incredibile detail, clarity, panning, depth, width and

i can't say enough about them . .
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post #60 of 66 Old 12-22-2018, 05:31 PM
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Is there a practical way to make a center with a mid horn like the titan? That would solve the comb filtering but how tall would it have to be to fit the mid and tweeter? Could smaller seos be used, would that compromise be less than the 2.5 way?

Also I like the htm10, listening and comparing to my statements minis I wonder what options in compression drivers would give more transparency? The htm brings a nice immediacy to the sound, and directivity is better, is there a higher end with more detail like a ribbon?


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