8x ultimax 18" - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
I feel like this is a troll thread.
Exactly my thought after reading post # 4.

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post #32 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
you can tune them as low as 15hz I believe.
I forced my 460's to 7hz. (sealed)

They are fine as long as you don't get too crazy with the excursion/watts.


That said: They are no SI-24 in the ULF/watts department... but for $90 there is no room for complaints.
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post #33 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Well i still havent made the purchase still thinking about it. I know its better to go for the pa subs but i wanted an ultimax from since they came out. Also no its not a troll post i was just saving up for 2x svs pb 16 ultras the ultra towers and the ultra center which add up to about 10k$ and i decided not to get them, so i've got the money ready just cant decide what to get. Also i'm going to call an electrician because i've definently decided to go for 32 subs, 8 against every wall. I have a feeling ill have trouble powering them lol
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post #34 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Those reaudio subs look great, i'm going to look for some reviews. I cant get 32 of those, maybe 14 since they are more than double the price. So i''d run 4 at the front 4 at the back and 3 on the sides? Is that a good idea?
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post #35 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Strale111 View Post
svs pb 16 ultra's
Those are horrible subwoofers for the money paid IMO, glad you didn't buy any of those... even though you literally rush-dove, head-first, into the depths of the DIY rabbit hole, or should I say northern euro December ice fishing lake?

Hope the wife doesn't break your neck. I don't have a wife because no woman would tolerate 8 hours of continuously loud bass, day after-day after-day, for years/decades. As it continuously gets louder and louder after every paycheck, or while I disappear in the middle of the night for months at a time with no reason given. Level 9000 uncompatible. (and just the way I LIKE IT! )

YMMV...
But with 32 18's, that's definitely divorce territory. Hell that's even Lorena Bobbitt/OJ Simpson territory. hehe!
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post #36 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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I ordered one um18 and one pa460, i'll see how they sound because i've never heard niether before. They should be here before the 19th of december, and i'll make my final decision than, thanks for all the help, i'll post some pics and give you an update when they arive
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post #37 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Strale111 View Post
Those reaudio subs look great, i'm going to look for some reviews. I cant get 32 of those, maybe 14 since they are more than double the price. So i''d run 4 at the front 4 at the back and 3 on the sides? Is that a good idea?
Have you read all of the detailed measurements charts and commentary for each/all of these subwoofers?
As per here -> https://data-bass.com/systems

You will need anywhere from 2-8 fp20k's to power 32 subs at full excursion, depending on exactly what driver you buy.

The fp20k is basically two 14k's in one box and half the price. There is a fp22k but it is proven to be less reliable in use and in internal guts.

When powering 32 subs, you'll likely need to do some level of series-parallel wiring. Unless you can vastly increase your amplifier budget to power each driver individually.

IMO you are better off with 16 PA-460's for the 40-300hz (ported?), and the rest in RE-18's for 1-40hz(IB?)...

The RE's don't like small boxes (winISD it.)

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post #38 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Strale111 View Post
I ordered one um18 and one pa460, i'll see how they sound because i've never heard niether before. They should be here before the 19th of december, and i'll make my final decision than, thanks for all the help, i'll post some pics and give you an update when they arive
If not already, you'll need to download REW and buy a CSL UMIK-1 if you want to do measurements accurately.
http://cross-spectrum.com/measuremen...ated_umik.html

Sweeps at 95db 2inches and 10ft should do (i.e. nearfield vs farfield.)

To measure at the full SPL, you'll need something like this:
http://spllabusa.com/us/products/bas...ass-meter.html
It's not high res, but it handles uber-high SPL. The UMIK clips at 120-130db, the SPL Lab and Term Lab clip north of 183db...

Pro subs are optimized for >40hz and car subs are optimized for <40hz. Which I'm sure you'll discover when you compare the two (and they must be compared in a box, not free-air! The waves from the front and back of the cone need to be isolated to prevent distortion and cancellation and to provide box-spring-air-resistance for the driver.)

As I said above, you don't need much excursion to get loud when using many-multiples.
32 18's moving 5mm @ 200watts = 1 18 moving 160mm @ 1zillion watts i.e. unpossible!
For a given SPL, as the cone-quantity approaches infinity, cone-speed approaches zero.

Basically: by the time you ever see 32 18's move at all = you is long dead by then.
(At least for any frequency above ~30hz or so. 1Hz requires about ~194db to hear!!! Never enough unicorn hair! )

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post #39 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 08:44 PM
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No idea what shipping prices to Norway are for various options. Ignoring that variable...

I understand about the desire to buy the UM22-18. Its a sexy good looking driver.

Speaking practically, if you are looking to buy one or two subs because that's all you have room for, it makes sense to look at top notch drivers because the equation is simple... which gives the most performance at a price I can still stomach. The UM, drivers from SI, BMS, RE, many others are worth considering.

But when you start talking about a dozen or more drivers the equation starts to shift a little. There are now two valid ways of approaching it. One is displacement per dollar. Either you have a fixed budget and are looking to get the most displacement you can for that budget, or you have room for a certain max number of drivers and are trying to get the most value out of that purchase that you can. The other is surface area per dollar, because while the max SPL your system will be capable of is governed by displacement and available amp power, when talking about an array of drivers the real world everyday performance is going to much more closely follow surface area rather than displacement. Things like smoothness of FR across all seating locations, distortion, the mythical tactile impact that accompanies the sound are all more closely related to position and distribution of subs around the room and total surface area available. Cliff notes version... for a single driver in a box there are easily measurable and reasonably audible differences between a PA460, UM22-18, REXXX, and a Pyramid Pro Best Ever Woofer. But for a dozen drivers, other than the rare showoff session that is much much less than 1% of your listening time, there will be vanishingly small audible difference between the PA460 and Ultimax drivers. That's because running either at 1mm for a dozen or two drivers is going to be quite loud. A few mm is going to be as loud as you'd ever play them with the rest for headroom on the rare subsonic notes.

For the first approach, the UM22-18 is actually a pretty darned good value for the money. Better value per liter of displacement than the PA460 and most any other choices. An alternative to check out if you have the space to do an infinite baffle setup is the Ficar audio IB3-18.

For the second approach, the PA460 is a great choice. For any budget of Ultimax drivers, you can just buy twice as many of the PA460 drivers and have same real use output with lowered excursion, lower amp requirements, etc.

Neither approach is wrong. Ultimately everything becomes a budget choice. Your budget seems unlimited to many here, but even you would probably stop short of pulling the trigger on 16+ of the RE XXX drivers. All things considered, 16 Ultimax drivers are going to have more maximum output, plenty enough output at minimal excursion levels to not worry about that difference, and be a little easier to fit and distribution in a room compared to 32 of the PA460 drivers... but for a little more cost (maybe not that much more for you if you save on shipping half as many drivers).
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post #40 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 08:51 PM
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Should i start a new thread because i really need help with the design of the box'es and you are right there is a place nearby that will cut mdf for cheap, just need to plan out the boxes.
As you have no speace restrictions, I'd start with 4 UM18-22 in full Marty enclosures (ported). There are plans and cut lists in Imperial, but there should be some in metric as they've been built all over the world.

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post #41 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 09:48 PM
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If he really made that purchase he would have more low end output than BTH (not figuring in the amps that is).
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post #42 of 82 Old 12-03-2018, 10:29 PM
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If he really made that purchase he would have more low end output than BTH (not figuring in the amps that is).
Probably.

Here is my ULF Score card, whatever that spreadsheet is supposed to calculate...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ulf-score.html

To be honest I couldn't even hear my 24 when I powered it on, at this level it added no additional SPL to my room.
Or maybe it did... but I'm just that far gone. hehe!

I'd like to add another 4 24's or 6 UM-18's to my room. I have the space, money and amp channels for it...
I figure that is a difference "big enough" that I'd "probably" notice it.
Been pondering and planning that upgrade for 8 years now actually... but definitely more in the last 1-2 years.

Besides being able to say >32subs is "cool" too I suppose!
29 is so damn close to 32 that it would actually be silly NOT to just keeping going at this point... (Thanks I feel all better now! )
Inmates running the asylum is how we got this far! It's self-reinforcing. Even crackheads don't like to inject alone etc!
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post #43 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Strale111 View Post
Was about to order 16 ultimax-es with boxes, apperantly parts express wants me to pay 4000$ for shipping!?! + import fees which are around 500$ so its like almost as much as the subs ... i hate living in norway lol is there any way to avoid paying for shipping as much for the subs or do i just bite the bullet and check out?
As a fellow Norwegian I know it can be frustrating to see the prices in US compared to Norway. I have however bought a lot of HT gear from US: 8xdayton subwoofers with flat packs, 4xcustom spec PAP sub drivers, speaker power amps, Seaton and JTR speakers and some rhythmik subwoofers back in the earlier days of my HT.
To keep the shipping cost down I’ve always used ground shipping in the US to a postal box address in NJ and boat shipping from NJ to Norway. JetCarrier.com have a online portal to arrange these kinds of shipment to Norway.
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post #44 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 03:18 AM
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Whatever you do, dont use partsexpress shipping. Use Jetcarrier. You will save a TON on shipping,especially if you choose shipping by boat, instead of plane.
Partsexpress have free shipping in continetal US, and jetcarrier gives you your own address when you make an account. So you just use that address when ordering from partsexpress.
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post #45 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 03:25 AM
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If you do go for ****loads of woofers, i suggest looking into DBA setup. Yes, you lose reinforcment from the room, and you only have half the driver you are using, in practise. But you eliminate ALL room nodes. totally flat response everywhere in the room, and it also reduces noice out of the room by alot.
16 ultimax 18" (if you really go for 32 of them) will move ALOT of air... even in closed boxes.
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post #46 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 06:49 AM
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If you do go for ****loads of woofers, i suggest looking into DBA setup. Yes, you lose reinforcment from the room, and you only have half the driver you are using, in practise. But you eliminate ALL room nodes. totally flat response everywhere in the room, and it also reduces noice out of the room by alot.
16 ultimax 18" (if you really go for 32 of them) will move ALOT of air... even in closed boxes.


You’ll get a perfect summation from a double “bass” wall too. In my opinion that is better than relying on room gain. But expensive...

Oh look my wallet just dropped dead.


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post #47 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 06:57 AM
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if you have 13k sitting around, buy a table saw. Saw Stop so you cant kill yourself or chop a finger off. get a buddy and knock out some cabinets. Cut all widths first then cut all lenghts.
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post #48 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 07:25 AM
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Also i'm going to call an electrician because i've definently decided to go for 32 subs, 8 against every wall.
No, you haven't...
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post #49 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 07:33 AM
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Sometimes I think we go a little overboard on this site lol. I have two 18 inch subs in Minimartys for my smallish room, 1638 cubic feet, and they are too much for me when pushed hard. Even with just those two, they pressurize the room so much that it can hurt your ears.
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post #50 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 08:13 AM
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Sometimes I think we go a little overboard on this site lol. I have two 18 inch subs in Minimartys for my smallish room, 1638 cubic feet, and they are too much for me when pushed hard. Even with just those two, they pressurize the room so much that it can hurt your ears.

I agree, My 8 12's in around 1700cuft room is spot on. Run inuke6kdsp attenuators at about 50%, turn them up a notch or 2 if I need a bass fix. Sounds better then a commercial theater at 50% and still gives you good tactile feel from the couch and foot rest, some in the chest too, turn it up 2 notches and it gets violent and the structure starts to complain.
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post #51 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 09:30 AM
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Sometimes Every time, I think we go a little overboard on this site lol. I have two 18 inch subs in Minimartys for my smallish room, 1638 cubic feet, and they are too much for me when pushed hard. Even with just those two, they pressurize the room so much that it can hurt your ears.
More like it!
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post #52 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 09:38 AM
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On the upside, if he really does go overboard like that, and figures out its way more than needed. It shouldnt be much of a problem getting rid of some of them for pretty much what it cost him.
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post #53 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 09:43 AM
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@Strale111 whats the rest of your system like? What do you use for mains?
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post #54 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 10:20 AM
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You definitely need to take a step back from all the excitement and think this through. Read through the Marty thread linked previously and also read through the VBSS thread. Both the UM and PA460 are excellent subs and have different strengths. Also, have you looked for subs that are available locally or at least in Europe? Perhaps there is something that will work just as well that won't cost near as much to ship.

I would also say that 8 subs is overkill if you have nothing now. You will most likely be blown away by 4 or even 2 of the subs you listed. If you already ordered 1 of each of the subs you listed, put the UM18 in a marty cube and put the PA460 in a VBSS box. See which one you like best. As has been pointed out, they are very different subs. The UM18 will handle way more power than the PA460 so be very careful you don't damage either one. Be sure and apply the appropriate high pass filter on the amp for each sub too. If you aren't sure what that means, check the Marty and VBSS threads. It's all in there.

This is a great hobby so enjoy it, but also take the time to make sure you know what you're doing. Don't just order 8 or 16 subs because someone else told you to. That's a lot of money, space, and power for diminishing returns.
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post #55 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 10:43 AM
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I think from a pure power standpoint it would be stupid to not get the PA460s when talking about ridiculous amounts of drivers like 16 or 32. The cost savings in amps and shipping alone would be worth it. And even 16 VBSS will pound like crazy. I think if you go with UM18s, stick with 8 max.
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post #56 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 01:33 PM
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And even 16 VBSS will pound like crazy.

I can't even imagine!
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post #57 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 03:08 PM
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Are there any pro drivers available in Norway?
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post #58 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 03:16 PM
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Are there any pro drivers available in Norway?
I was about to mention B&C, Eighteen Sound, LaVoce are all in Italy. I would think that would be cheaper.

Nothing against the Pa 460 but you can do better with your budget
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post #59 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 05:03 PM
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Don't just order 8 or 16 subs because someone else told you to.
I would suggest starting with 1.

Then upgrading to 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 in increments, until you hit a point where it becomes too loud to withstand...
You can always add more later, it's harder to remove them once you've wasted the money.

Every time you double the cones and watts it gets 6db louder.
The difference between 1 18 vs 32 18's is 30db, which is worlds apart...
even 12db is pretty substantial, as you have probably guessed already...

Most normal people call it quits around 4 18's, and most mild bassheads stop at 8. Few go to 16, and only a handful go 32+

I know of at least 3-5 AVS'ers that have +32 now, or used to over the years... and it's a world-wide forum for anyone who types/reads English. There are also a few that have 10 24's or 12 21's, which is also worthy of mention.

If there are more... they either never visit AVS or never/rarely talk about it on AVS...

16 PA-460's is in the 140-150db region from like ~20hz to ~300hz. Not bad for $1500 + some wood.
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post #60 of 82 Old 12-04-2018, 05:22 PM
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Yes, welcome to the land of the extreme and arguably insane!

This forum has cost me many thousands of dollars!

Extreme and overkill are subjective assessments. One man's 100W 10" sub is overkill...
However, there is very little to be gained sans the bragging rights from having 32 18" drivers and tens of thousands of watts. It would be different if you need to pressurize a warehouse, but a typical theater room of less than 1000 sq/ft does not require anywhere near that much to play well over reference levels at any frequency. In the end, you can only listen at volumes that can be tolerated. It doesn't matter that you can produce 150db at 15 Hz if your dwelling disintegrates around you!

So, start with something manageable and "practical" with 2-4 subs and see how it shakes out in your setup, then add as desired. Subs can take up and enormous amount of space in a room. Even if there is no WAF at play, most people still want their space to have some degree of aesthetically acceptable arrangement. Not to mention the gobs of power to drive them all. I personally don't want to use $50 worth of electricity every time I power up the gear for a demo. And then there is the physical rack space, cabling, breaker boxes, etc. etc.

If you are indeed set on 32 drivers, then the law of diminishing returns come into play quickly. 32 $99 drivers would do nicely and have such low THD. Hell, even 8 or 16 of them would be enough for just about any size room and expectations.
Dark Matter and bebb like this.

______________________________________________
Joe = LFE Addict
Past Builds: 24" LMS-5400 cube, Anarchy 25Hz Tapped Horn, Danley DTS-10 kit, BFM AutoTuba, BFM THT, BFM THT-LP
Joe's LOWARHORN build, Dual LMS-5400 Ultra Endtables build

Last edited by jpmst3; 12-04-2018 at 07:08 PM.
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