Devastator an LTD02 hybrid design - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Glad to hear they live up to expectations! Just one in 6000ft3 rattles the snot out of my projector, not sure how I can fix that. Two Devastators should be the stopping point, though adding two near field end tables someday is still stuck in the gray matter
Oh, they lived up to expectations, alright. I was testing the opening sequence of The Nun, (not quite EOT levels of crazy, but a good rattle test, nonetheless) and the shot where the mom/daughter see the nun down their hallway, I was like, "Oh, that's a cool, violent camera shake effect." Anyways, I kept replaying that little sequence trying to identify new rattles in my room, and just happened to nudge to the volume up right before the bass drop, leaving the OSD from my AVR on screen for a few seconds. It was then that I realized it wasn't a violent camera shake effect I was seeing, it was a "your effing projector is violently shaking" effect!

HPF went from 2nd order to 3rd order pretty quick after that. Prior to building these, I was all worried about ULF and having extension into the low teens. Now that they're built, I'm just trying to figure out how to keep all my other equipment (and house) safe from these things!

Anyways- can't wait to see your new builds/impressions next year. This new design looks like something special!
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post #62 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
Oh, they lived up to expectations, alright. I was testing the opening sequence of The Nun, (not quite EOT levels of crazy, but a good rattle test, nonetheless) and the shot where the mom/daughter see the nun down their hallway, I was like, "Oh, that's a cool, violent camera shake effect." Anyways, I kept replaying that little sequence trying to identify new rattles in my room, and just happened to nudge to the volume up right before the bass drop, leaving the OSD from my AVR on screen for a few seconds. It was then that I realized it wasn't a violent camera shake effect I was seeing, it was a "your effing projector is violently shaking" effect!

HPF went from 2nd order to 3rd order pretty quick after that. Prior to building these, I was all worried about ULF and having extension into the low teens. Now that they're built, I'm just trying to figure out how to keep all my other equipment (and house) safe from these things!

Anyways- can't wait to see your new builds/impressions next year. This new design looks like something special!

Before the projector screen was built it was just shooting on the wall, I turned 2049 up and the initial boom that hits right at the start of the film made the wall visibly pulsate. That wall is up against concrete I am not too worried about the higher tune on this unit at 19Hz, it will still find deep content Though a v2 with a lower tune would still be interesting to see!

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen
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post #63 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
Before the projector screen was built it was just shooting on the wall, I turned 2049 up and the initial boom that hits right at the start of the film made the wall visibly pulsate. That wall is up against concrete I am not too worried about the higher tune on this unit at 19Hz, it will still find deep content Though a v2 with a lower tune would still be interesting to see!
I think Mike's 4 B&C's are in bigger boxes tuned to ~16hz. Based on the feedback I've seen from his get-togethers, they don't leave much to be desired!
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post #64 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by strawberry View Post
I think Mike's 4 B&C's are in bigger boxes tuned to ~16hz. Based on the feedback I've seen from his get-togethers, they don't leave much to be desired!

His boxes are beastly! I consulted John for Stormbreaker. I was pretty torn at the time with which direction to go. WinISD is very useful, but can make the decision making process more tedious, no free lunches always having to compromise something. I was initially looking at the larger cabinet, but the 21DS115 past 11ft3 does not gain as much from the box size as John pointed out. Stormbreaker's goal was geared towards balance and material efficiency. Those Titans more than make up for having less mid bass out of the 21DS115s

I was thinking of asking John if there was a popular driver around here that would be good in a design similar to this, but targeting a lower frequency range in the mid teens to around 30 - 40hz. The size would probably get out of hand though
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Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen

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post #65 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post

This calculated 1w1m on the Devastator


Is this what we are hoping for response shape wise? Or is this the UM response shape? It does look like a weaker motor in the response sim.

I ask because this does not look like any response shape I have simulated with John's posted HR inputs.

I say this because the drivers I have been simulating have more of a hump near tuning. I would have figured the DS115 would have had the same.
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I just updated the driver list. If you have some sims with the standard enclosure size I will also add those to the OP I take it the B&C SW152s have no problem in the enclosure? Edit: I just reread some posts, yes it does.
First sim is SW152 verse Lavoce 21(black line) at 1w. Second is DS115 vs Lavoce(black line) at 1w. 3rd is the Alpine 15SWS D4 vs 15HST D2 with lossy Le(black line) and lastly the 21DS115 with a 16.5hz tune verse standard. Larger cabinet is only 20 more liters roughly.
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post #66 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 01:21 PM
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Regarding the use of brads or screws in the picture below, would this not be a good location to use either biscuits or dowels?

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post #67 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Is this what we are hoping for response shape wise? Or is this the UM response shape? It does look like a weaker motor in the response sim.

I ask because this does not look like any response shape I have simulated with John's posted HR inputs.

I say this because the drivers I have been simulating have more of a hump near tuning. I would have figured the DS115 would have had the same.


First sim is SW152 verse Lavoce 21(black line) at 1w. Second is DS115 vs Lavoce(black line) at 1w. 3rd is the Alpine 15SWS D4 vs 15HST D2(black line) and lastly the 21DS115 with a 16.5hz tune verse standard. Larger cabinet is only 20 more liters roughly.

John was thinking it might be the parameters for calculating the inductance on the DS115. There might be two peaks once one is built and tested. If the peaks do appear it should be within an eq fix. Edit: The UM was just for a comparison with one watt fed into it, I think I calculated that in a Full Marty. It was just a 1w1m comparison of efficiency.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen

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post #68 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 01:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Is this what we are hoping for response shape wise? Or is this the UM response shape? It does look like a weaker motor in the response sim.

I ask because this does not look like any response shape I have simulated with John's posted HR inputs.

I say this because the drivers I have been simulating have more of a hump near tuning. I would have figured the DS115 would have had the same.


First sim is SW152 verse Lavoce 21(black line) at 1w. Second is DS115 vs Lavoce(black line) at 1w. 3rd is the Alpine 15SWS D4 vs 15HST D2(black line) and lastly the 21DS115 with a 16.5hz tune verse standard. Larger cabinet is only 20 more liters roughly.

That second graph has a more defined peak.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #69 of 229 Old 12-20-2018, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Five View Post
That second graph has a more defined peak.
They all have defined peaks as a 6th order design tends to. But they also have no problem getting to the tune in this cabinet before roll off and before EQ.
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post #70 of 229 Old 12-21-2018, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
They all have defined peaks as a 6th order design tends to. But they also have no problem getting to the tune in this cabinet before roll off and before EQ.

I will get those graphs up later once I have time on a real computer... The Stereo Integrity HSTs work?

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #71 of 229 Old 12-21-2018, 03:45 PM
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I will get those graphs up later once I have time on a real computer... The Stereo Integrity HSTs work?
I posted above that the 15HST with lossy Le selected works fine. I compared it against the 15SWS. The darker line is the HST.
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post #72 of 229 Old 12-23-2018, 06:52 AM
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Hi guys I have a few questions please.. Has anyone built one of these yet? My current subs are ported to 15 hz. With these being ported to 19hz would it cause problems at the different port tunes or is it close enough that it should be ok? How hard would it be to lower the tune of this box to match at 15 hz? I would be using B&C 21sw115-8 in this enclosure.
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post #73 of 229 Old 12-23-2018, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys I have a few questions please.. Has anyone built one of these yet? My current subs are ported to 15 hz. With these being ported to 19hz would it cause problems at the different port tunes or is it close enough that it should be ok? How hard would it be to lower the tune of this box to match at 15 hz? I would be using B&C 21sw115-8 in this enclosure.

No builds just yet, stay tuned. @chrapladm calculated 20 liters (.7cuft) more volume for a 16.5Hz tune. No cutlist or sketches for that right now. He is planning on building both versions.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #74 of 229 Old 12-23-2018, 08:27 PM
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The lower tune would depend on the driver used. You can use a certain size extra for all drivers if you want but port size, port velocity and added low gain all have to be balanced. For the most part adding about 1cuft will be enough for a lower tune. But you can also just make a longer port. You will have to simulate that though to see if it is your desired response shape.

The cabinet could be 34-36" deep and that will gain you the extra volume depending on port volume and net volume needed. I will have a AM7315(clone) sitting on top of mine so who knows which way I will go. I will be trying a few different cabinets altogether anyways.

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post #75 of 229 Old 12-24-2018, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
The lower tune would depend on the driver used. You can use a certain size extra for all drivers if you want but port size, port velocity and added low gain all have to be balanced. For the most part adding about 1cuft will be enough for a lower tune. But you can also just make a longer port. You will have to simulate that though to see if it is your desired response shape.

The cabinet could be 34-36" deep and that will gain you the extra volume depending on port volume and net volume needed. I will have a AM7315(clone) sitting on top of mine so who knows which way I will go. I will be trying a few different cabinets altogether anyways.
Can you make it wider instead of deeper, or does that have some unintended negative consequences with respect to the port?

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post #76 of 229 Old 12-24-2018, 03:10 PM
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Can you make it wider instead of deeper, or does that have some unintended negative consequences with respect to the port?
The cabinet as it stands is 48" and 30" deep and 25.5" wide. So if you made it wider that would change the port sizes and would have to be simulated. I would just add volume to the rear and that would not effect anything on the front port. You would have to still simulate the port changes since rear volume was changed but the drawing as it is would not be difficult to change. But the cutlist would all change.

And now that I think of it. Just leave the cabinet the way it is. If you want a lower tune plug a port. 2 ports is about 15.75hz roughly. When just plugging the end of the port that gives an extra 10 Liters roughly also. And because I know someone will ask, a single port is about 11hz tune. Doesnt look very good with the 15SWS.

So I would keep the cabinet the dimensions and just build yourself some small port plugs if you want. This is what I will be doing. No need to change cutlist or any dimensions.
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post #77 of 229 Old 12-24-2018, 09:20 PM
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Thank you. Looks like plugging a port is the winner!
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post #78 of 229 Old 12-25-2018, 07:48 AM
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Sweet. Thats good to hear. I will start to build one sometime this week!
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post #79 of 229 Old 12-30-2018, 11:49 AM
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Hoping to have one setup this week. Are there any basic inuke settings i should be inputing?
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post #80 of 229 Old 12-30-2018, 11:59 AM
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Hoping to have one setup this week. Are there any basic inuke settings i should be inputing?
@Dan668


These settings would be a good place to start...... check the links at the bottom of this post....

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post39334306


Enjoy


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post #81 of 229 Old 12-30-2018, 02:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Can the EQ filters be calculated in HR for getting a flater response on the enclosure? This design should have two peaks that will need some eq adjustments.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
7.1.4 | Yamaha A3070 | Crown XLS 1502 | iNuke 3000 DSP | 2x Aphex 124A | 2x Bic EV15 | 7x Bic FH6 LCR | 2x Bic FH65-B | Sub 21" Stormbreaker | Epson 5010e | 120" DIY AT Screen
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post #82 of 229 Old 12-30-2018, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
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Can the EQ filters be calculated in HR for getting a flater response on the enclosure? This design should have two peaks that will need some eq adjustments.
yep...

Acoustical Power window
Filter Wizard

switch from active to equalizer
double click each band from off to on and set based on frequency and desired Q
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post #83 of 229 Old 12-31-2018, 05:17 AM
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The b&c seems to have a gasket of its own. Would it be worthwhile to add some gasket sealing tape incase?
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post #84 of 229 Old 12-31-2018, 06:22 AM - Thread Starter
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The b&c seems to have a gasket of its own. Would it be worthwhile to add some gasket sealing tape incase?

The gasket tape will most likely cause more problems than it is worth. If you want to remove the driver in the future it could get messy.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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post #85 of 229 Old 12-31-2018, 07:54 AM
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Hoping to have one setup this week. Are there any basic inuke settings i should be inputing?
What driver are you using and are you set up to take measurements

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post #86 of 229 Old 12-31-2018, 08:34 AM
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A 21ds115 will be used. I have a mic, but never used one before. So we well see how it goes!
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post #87 of 229 Old 12-31-2018, 10:59 PM
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Has anyone created a performance chart for a B&C 21 in this build with one of the ports sealed?

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post #88 of 229 Old 01-01-2019, 12:20 AM
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Yes I posted this a few posts ago. 16.5hz vs 19hz
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post #89 of 229 Old 01-01-2019, 07:08 AM
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Yes I posted this a few posts ago. 16.5hz vs 19hz
Thanks. Sorry I didn't see it at first. Would anyone like to explain the tradeoffs evidenced by the chart for the 16.5 versus the 19 hz? I don't have confidence in my abilities being new to this.

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post #90 of 229 Old 01-01-2019, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Since it is just plugging a port you could try it both ways without too much hassle in your listening room. With a lower tune you have more low frequency extension, but the trade off is losing output above the tuning. How important the extension is can vary from person to person, room to room. Your mileage may vary.

Stormbreaker a B&C 21DS115 Subwoofer Solution | Wisconsin Home Theater Meet Thread
You can always turn it down, but you can only turn it up so much (before you run out of power, excursion or structural integrity).
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