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post #1 of 104 Old 12-23-2018, 05:35 PM - Thread Starter
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SKHorn build

Let's start this post off with a few pics of the finished cab before you read through my boring backstory.. :-)

There is the black beauty, fully wrapped in brushed steel vinyl:




TV has to be hung higher, as the center doesn't fit anymore. My sideboard was smaller... That's a 55" TV btw (I wish it was 70 thou)




So a few years ago, as I've been looking for a better amp to replace my TSA-1400 which was being heavily abused on two 18" subs, I stumbled upon AVS via @popalock 's youtube channel and found @notnyt 's thread about the Lab clones, which, after alot of reading, I found to be worth the gamble to purchase. I actually purchased an FP-13000 because the 14k is just two additional capacitors, which made a difference of almost 100 bucks, which I didn't find to be worth the extra coin.

After some testing I installed different fans (ebmPapst plus resistors) which got the amp down to 40db in idle, plus I also fitted it with a powercon plug.
I've been using that amp for live application for quite some time until I just recently got two ARCS wide, which my TSA-1400 couldn't handle anymore.
Looking for a all-in-one solution (4ch amp with dsp) with the LA8 currently being out of my pricerange, I got a Sanway DP10Q.

The DP10Q is the same as an FP10Q internally, just with the addition of the dsp (and the touch screen panel at the front, fancy).
The dsp isn't great but it does the trick and fulfills my needs of having a EQ and a limiter per channel. I copied the settings from an original LA8 as good as I could and it works like a charm with my ARCS now, with my only complaint being the high noise floor and the broken visual representation of the EQ, which is just cosmetics.

So, long story short: I have an obsolete FP-13000 and no subs to use it with - cardinal sin!
Searching for something to do over the winter holidays, I ended up spending lots of time reading through DIY threads and checking out subs over at data-bass.com. The time it took for me to go from "I might get a second sub for my HT" (which would've been a second Klipsch R-12SW) to "I want to destroy the building" was about 2 days.


Looking through the forums on what DIY subs have proven to be great (also in value for their money and in efficiency), I came across the Gjallarhorn and the Othorn. The Ghorn was completely out of the question, due to its size and the availability of the lms ultras.
Building two Othorns would be the plan, until I found the SKHorn. The SKHorn would fit my space much better than even a single Othorn, so after doing some more research it became quite clear that this was the perfect sub to replace the sideboard underneath my TV, just like @dsl1 set his up; hell, I almost have the same TV even!


Heading over to @Ricci 's data-bass, downloading the files, I started to build the cab in Inventor and made plans with metric units.
I spread the parts across 3 pieces of the standard 2,5m x 1,25m 18mm plywood sheets and a single 2x1m 12mm sheet we have here.
One day later, I had bought all the wood, but it was so late in the evening already, that I couldn't get any more work done - bummer!



Will keep posting more pics as I'm progressing! Also please ignore all the dirt, my dad tends to leave a mess whenever he's working on anything...


Update:

I'll post some pics of the recent progress periodically. Can't work on it through Christmas or the family will kill me...

I cut all the sheets to size. Big thanks to my dad for helping me yield these giant sheets of plywood.
He thought the project was ridiculous but liked it.






That table saw is a precision beast, I was able to get all dimensions within a tenth of a millimeter.

Drawing work!




Update:

So now, after I found out what the actual names of the tools I've been using are, I'm able to write about it..
In German, plunge routers, moulders and (metal) milling machines are all basically unified under a sinle term, which can make communication a little confusing at times.

The hatches are done with the moulder. I cut a test piece and set it up to remove 18.5x9.5mm of the wood. Easy work with the right tooling.
I rounded the edges with sandpaper (did a horrible job on that lol).
I then used the plunge router for the backplate, using a 8mm cutter to cut through and a 20mm cutter for the rest.









T-Nuts installed and hey presto, it fits! They are even interchangeable!

Some more routing to get perfect holes into the baffles:







Most smaller parts are done. Two parts left.




Update:

All parts cut!
First step of the dry assembly (this has to be perfect):




And added the back panel:




Got a flat cable to run it through the top, this it the cleanest solution I could come up with:




Looking good so far, everything fits perfectly and it's very sturdy!




Made some 1/3 and 1/2 spacers to help with the assembly. They surely come in handy.
Grandma asked what kind of furniture this is going to be...




Well well well... what do we have here..!




Some pics of the inside:






Waiting for the drivers to arrive so I can glue everything together. Gonna be finished in vinyl wrap (black brushed steel).
The cab is exactly 80kg (175lbs) as it is right now. Heavier than I am!


Update:

Took everything apart and started glueing everything into place. I left the top, front and side panels out to (spray) paint all visible surfaces on the inside.
I then painted the panels and put everything together.




Final step of the cab assembly:




I'm not a bodybuilder but I have some heavy equipment, which came in handy here since clamping doesn't really work.




Installing the drivers to see if everything fits. The drivers didn't, I had to use a chisel to remove a small amount of wood, but now they do fit nicely.




Guess I have an SKHorn now!



I broke one T-nut which I had to replace. I fully understand why you guys prefer hex inserts!

Vinyl wrapping in 3.. 2.. 1.. done!



The entire cab is wrapped in a single sheet of vinyl, just the back panel is separate. I wanted the perfect clean look, yet I damaged multiple edges already, sad times!

A little dusty but a clean vinyl job.




Time to install the drivers and line the inside:




The back panel didn't end up super clean but who will ever see that..




Aaand my 55" TV looks super tiny, time to get something 70"+ soon. Soon as in mico LED panel "soon". And maybe 4k120, I also use it for gaming.




Adding the portblocks here (post couldn't fit any more images). Doing so lowered the tuning to ~17Hz (more or less flat down to 9Hz in the room but I rolled it off from 15Hz due to distortion). It's good for now, but I'll likely go back to 2 ports per side. Got a BOSS platform for TR now, because I'm sitting on a stone floor.
I'm planning to build more of these for (distant) future PA application. I'm playing with the thought of building 9 more cabs, of which 1 will go into the theater and 8 will be used for live shows. I don't have a CnC yet, so I'll probably simplify the bracing a little and only outfit 2 cabs with drivers. I can get a driver for ~350€ (400$) if I'm lucky, but we don't have the need for so much woofage just yet.
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Last edited by peniku8; 06-24-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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post #2 of 104 Old 12-23-2018, 05:54 PM
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"The dsp isn't great but it does the trick and fulfills my needs of having a EQ and a limiter per channel. I copied the settings from an original LA8 as good as I could and it works like a charm with my ARCS now, with my only complaint being the high noise floor and the broken visual representation of the EQ, which is just cosmetics."

The high noise floor - this is due to the dsp implementation on the clone? How does it manifest itself?
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post #3 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 03:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
The high noise floor - this is due to the dsp implementation on the clone? How does it manifest itself?

It sounds like some 300Hz sawtooth signal iirc. It's only audibe in a silent room, so it's not that much of a deal when you use your PA outside.
I haven't tracked the source of it yet, but my guess is that the dsp is generating some noise, which then goes into the "full power" amp, into my high sensitivity ARCS which obviously make the problem much worse.

I'll do some measurements and compare it to the regular FP-13K without any input signal later the day.
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post #4 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
"The dsp isn't great but it does the trick and fulfills my needs of having a EQ and a limiter per channel. I copied the settings from an original LA8 as good as I could and it works like a charm with my ARCS now, with my only complaint being the high noise floor and the broken visual representation of the EQ, which is just cosmetics."

The high noise floor - this is due to the dsp implementation on the clone? How does it manifest itself?
So I did a comparison vs the FP13K, here is my test setup:




The red panels are absorption panels to reduce the fan noise getting to the mic, I also closed the rack while testing.
The mic (iPhone6) was placed about 1.5m from the speaker.
With no further noise in the room it displayed 36db. With the amps on, the fans pushed that to 37db.
With the speaker connected to the FP13K the SPL meter read 38db. The noise was audible a meter away, but nothing grave.
There was some general hissing from 5-20k and one very high pitched frequency around 16k, which stood out a little.
Almost not noticable from 3m away over the fan noise, this is very acceptable.
Now, the DP10Q brought the SPL meter up to 42db, the noise was clearly audible and annoying, even 4m away and over the fans of the amps.
In both tests I had both amps running at the same time to eliminate the different fan noise levels.
Here is a video where you can hear the noise.





Gotta say I'm impressed with the ARCS yet again, the noise was not audible anywhere else but in their 30° radiation angle.
DOSC waveguide is just ridiculous.


So, in the end I would totally recommend both amps for any LFE application.
The noise of the DP10Q is on a level where you might be able to spot it as long as the music playing doesn't exceed, say 60-70db.
But really, who buys a 10KW amp to listen to music at that volume?
In a HT setup I'd not recommend using the DP10Q for any of the fullrange speakers, as you'd be able to hear the noise in quiet passages of the movie.
The FP13K would do fine on fullrange speakers, but then again, who buys one moster of an amp like this to power anything else but subs.
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SKHorn Build
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Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #5 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 02:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Updated the main post with some more pics of actual work getting done


Was thinking about finishing the cab in vinyl when it's all done. Does anybody know which vinyl wrap would come closest to the look of my Klipsch R-28F?

I found this but I'm unsure what it really looks like. @gixerking 's DS4's look very much like what I'm aiming for.

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post #6 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 03:59 PM
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Sounds like you either have some type of ground loop issue or perhaps an issue in the DP10Q. I have 5 of them and no 300hz hum. The only noise I have is small amount from the CD’s only. I can’t hear it past a couple of feet. With seven 1899’s on, I can hear it without any program material. As soon as anything is playing at an audible level, it is completely unnoticeable.
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post #7 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gixerking View Post
Sounds like you either have some type of ground loop issue or perhaps an issue in the DP10Q. I have 5 of them and no 300hz hum. The only noise I have is small amount from the CD’s only. I can’t hear it past a couple of feet. With seven 1899’s on, I can hear it without any program material. As soon as anything is playing at an audible level, it is completely unnoticeable.

Guess I'll drop Sanway a message, let's see what they say
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post #8 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 04:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Guess I'll drop Sanway a message, let's see what they say

"I will asked our factory"

Well, let's hope it's a known issue and they can send me a replacement part.
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post #9 of 104 Old 12-24-2018, 10:21 PM
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That table saw is a precision beast, I was able to get all dimensions within a tenth of a millimeter.
man, I'll say! I would give my left (certain part of the anatomy) for something like that!!!!
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post #10 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 09:33 AM
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Looking good

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DIY Mid Hi Speakers Build - SKHorn Build - Gjallarhorn Build SOLD - Othorn Build SOLD - SEOS 12 Build - Other Gear: JVC NX5 - Seymour Matinee Black - QSC CX4.5Q amps x 5 - QSC Q-sys 110f - Speakerpower 6000 x2
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post #11 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 09:38 AM
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Love my skhorns! Be ready to reset your expectations of what bass can sound like. These are the best subwoofers I have ever owned... Ever. Midbass is insanity and they can play deep.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk
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post #12 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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@dsl1 Did you install feet on yours? I'm eyeing to get some rubber feet so the cab doesn't touch the cold floor (stone, basement).
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post #13 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 11:14 AM
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@dsl1 Did you install feet on yours? I'm eyeing to get some rubber feet so the cab doesn't touch the cold floor (stone, basement).
I did not put feet on the skhorns.

Certainly could, they don't move around much though with the driver orientation and the weight.

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post #14 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I did not put feet on the skhorns.

Certainly could, they don't move around much though with the driver orientation and the weight.

Yea, I wouldn't expect it moving around, but I still don't fancy putting the cab directly on the stone floor.
I might put 6 of these on.

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SKHorn Build
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post #15 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 11:41 AM
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This thread is off to a great start.
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post #16 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 12:23 PM
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Yea, I wouldn't expect it moving around, but I still don't fancy putting the cab directly on the stone floor.
I might put 6 of these on.
Those look nice - I've used these: https://www.parts-express.com/penn-e...375-h--260-777 a number of times.
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post #17 of 104 Old 12-25-2018, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I've wondered which EQ I should use for the Sub. I'm planning to use the Klipsch sub for normal use (with the Audyssey correction) and to swap that out for the skh for movies and when I want some more volume in general. The minidsp nanoavr looked nice until I saw the lack of dts encoding and the HDMI 1.4 stardard.
The Behringer DEQ2496 looks like a good alternative, especially since I could also use it as a DI-box more or less.
Any recommendations on what EQ to use? The Behringer unit is 15 years old now and I hate old digital equipment... but well, as long as it works and is still good...

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SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #18 of 104 Old 12-27-2018, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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First blood!



A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #19 of 104 Old 12-28-2018, 04:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Messed up one part, so I had to glue a 2mm thick layer to the bottom...



A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #20 of 104 Old 12-29-2018, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Waiting for the drivers to arrive.. still need to drill the mounting holes into the baffle.


I also ordered a UMIK-1 and the DEQ2496. Will be using one channel for the SKHorn and the other for the bass shakers I have mounted under the couch.
These will be driven by a TSA-1400. Currently abusing the Yamaha CR-440 for that. It's so bad that I basically never use them (they're very very annoying without a proper high cut at around 30-40hz). Also, the CR-440 doesn't really produce any output below 30Hz so the entire system is kinda useless right now.
Shouldn't be long until all pieces fall together!

A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #21 of 104 Old 12-30-2018, 08:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Soldered a small Speakon black box which wires the drivers in series to a bridged amp. It is not bi-directional and might break the amp if wired the wrong way, so I used a green speakon to make sure I think twice when using this thing.



A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #22 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Well the project is still on halt currently, as I'm waiting for the drivers, but I ordered some more goodies to complete the setup:


- Behringer DEQ2496 as BEQ
- a double door rack to stuff all rack units + AVR
- feet for the sub
- black brushed steel vinyl wrap for the outside along with black paint for the inside of the sub


Still have plenty of acoustics foam layin around for lining the inside, maybe some sound proofing of my room...



A Star Is Born - Lady Gaga goes Rock Audio&Video by Ocean Studios (me)
SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #23 of 104 Old 01-03-2019, 08:47 PM
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Killer work man. Looks like you flew through this build. I'm jealous of that table saw BTW. Looking forward to your update once you get the drivers in.
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post #24 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 10:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Killer work man. Looks like you flew through this build. I'm jealous of that table saw BTW. Looking forward to your update once you get the drivers in.

Thanks for all the effort you put in that design, it's truly a piece of art!
I was just about to ask if you have some excursion graphs in fear of bottoming out the drivers, but then read your tests on data-bass.
Seems like I'm on the safe side as long as I don't exceed the thermal limit Gonna block two ports and EQ it flat to 10Hz, hope the room gains are with me!

The table saw surely saved me alot of time, especially since I can set a blade angle via numeric input at the terminal.

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SKHorn Build
Samsung KS7500 - Marantz NR1504 - Klipsch R-26F - Klipsch R-25C - Klipsch R-15M - SKHorn (on FP-13000 clone)
Bass EQ for Filtered Video Games
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post #25 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 02:42 PM
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I was just about to ask if you have some excursion graphs in fear of bottoming out the drivers, but then read your tests on data-bass.
Seems like I'm on the safe side as long as I don't exceed the thermal limit Gonna block two ports and EQ it flat to 10Hz, hope the room gains are with me!
.

What drivers are you using?


I wasn't able to mechanically damage the 21Ipal's below tuning with 1 port open per side but that does not mean it sounded good while it was happening! There were some not pretty noises and tons of distortion happening. You may get away with running it without a HPF in 1 vent mode depending on the amp and drivers but I definitely do not recommend boosting it below tuning under any scenario. I'd recommend considering the bottom useful limit to be 15Hz with a single vent open and suggest a mild 12dB octave filter set around 15Hz. In no way is this sub made to pump out 10Hz and >15Hz is WAY more important anyway.
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post #26 of 104 Old 01-04-2019, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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What drivers are you using?


I wasn't able to mechanically damage the 21Ipal's below tuning with 1 port open per side but that does not mean it sounded good while it was happening! There were some not pretty noises and tons of distortion happening. You may get away with running it without a HPF in 1 vent mode depending on the amp and drivers but I definitely do not recommend boosting it below tuning under any scenario. I'd recommend considering the bottom useful limit to be 15Hz with a single vent open and suggest a mild 12dB octave filter set around 15Hz. In no way is this sub made to pump out 10Hz and >15Hz is WAY more important anyway.

It'll be 2 21ds115's on an FP13K clone (with VPL set to 3300Wrms total). I don't intend on reaching >100db in single digits, nor do I wanna listen to alot of distortion. I have a UMIK now, which I'll be using to calibrate it in my room. If I detect distortion at my regular listening levels I will tone down the ulf stuff of course. This room is underground, surrounded by solid brick walls, which should keep quite some ULF inside.
I'm very well aware that this sub is not meant for ULF, I'm just saying that I might get a flat response at low playback levels to like 10Hz without having too much distortion
On another note.. designing a dual (quad?) opposed horn tuned to 10Hz might be interesting stuff
But yeah, a sub 15Hz roll-off will probably be my final setup.
I might even use it for some live applications, if my two SB18's won't cut it.

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post #27 of 104 Old 01-08-2019, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Hijacking my own thread for DP-10Q problem solving again:
@gixerking I saw that you've opened up your DP10Q's when you got em, did yours have this wierd cap on the bottom as well?
I opened mine up and couldn't spot anything unusual except this cap, which looks a little out of shape, so to say.
There were some parts missing on the PCB but I guess that's just because it's being used for different devices.


The only other person having one of these amps is @SVChucko , hows your noise floor?




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Hijacking my own thread for DP-10Q problem solving again:
@gixerking I saw that you've opened up your DP10Q's when you got em, did yours have this wierd cap on the bottom as well?
I opened mine up and couldn't spot anything unusual except this cap, which looks a little out of shape, so to say.
There were some parts missing on the PCB but I guess that's just because it's being used for different devices.


The only other person having one of these amps is @SVChucko , hows your noise floor?



For some reason I am not seeing any pics in this thread. I will take a look when I get home. Have you tried hooking the amp to the speakers only, without any input connections?
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post #29 of 104 Old 01-08-2019, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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For some reason I am not seeing any pics in this thread. I will take a look when I get home. Have you tried hooking the amp to the speakers only, without any input connections?

The pics are hosted on imgur, but I already had the same issue on data-bass, when my phone would just get rid of all the pics because they wouldn't fit or w/e.
But yes, I did try that. The speaker was hooked to the amp, with no other cables connected to it.
The noise is still present, even when I mute the outputs or play with the gain. Applies to all 4 channels (configured as stereo for tops+subs).

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post #30 of 104 Old 01-08-2019, 10:12 PM
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The only other person having one of these amps is @SVChucko , hows your noise floor?
Meh. By my measurement (which may well be incorrect), S/N at 3V sensitivity is 97 dB below full power. It's only 91 dB at the 0 dbU setting.

Here are the spectra I got in testing. First one is the 3V setting, second is 0 dbU. The red line is the DP10Q, the green line is the D/A -> A/D loopback (residual). Note the 90(ish) Hz and harmonics thereof that dominate. I haven't figured out where they come from yet, but I bet it's in the power supplies. Get rid of those and the S/N would improve dramatically.

I've only heard actual music briefly on this amp, through some crummy PA monitor speakers. It sounded OK at low power levels, up to about conversational volumes. I had the amp a few feet away so there was no shortage of background noise. Of course I had the gain turned way down too.
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