Operation Neighbor Tickler- Triple SI HS-24 MKIII Build - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 171 Old 12-27-2018, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Operation Neighbor Tickler- Triple SI HS-24 MKIII Build

I will soon be taking delivery of 3 sweet HS-24 MKIII's from Nick at Stereo Integrity. Figured it was time to start a thread on my plans and post some videos once the time comes. If you are unfamiliar with my basement layout, I have added a few pics of what it looks like and where I will be placing the subs (2 up front under screen wall and 1 in the back corner). Each will be powered by 1 channel on a clone FP20000Q amplifier, rated at 4000w x 4 at 4 ohms. Yes, 1 channel will not be used.

I am planning on making the (2) 24's on either side of the center channel sealed and the 1 in the back corner ported. I'm looking at a box size of 32Wx28Dx52H for the ported enclosure, giving me about 23.6 cu ft to work with before adding a port, bracing, and woofer.

The other 2 woofers on the front wall, I have a few ideas and think I know where I'm going to go with it. My center channel will be the 1299 DIYSG speaker, coming in at 40 inches wide and almost 15 inches tall. Instead of building a riser for the speaker to get it higher off the ground, my thought is to make a section come off the side of each sub box to make a platform for the center channel to sit on. The dimensions are in the pic below, but I would get roughly an extra 2 cu ft of airspace per sub if I did this, bringing the internal volume up from almost 7 cu ft to 9 cu ft. I don't think there will be any negative effects from building the boxes this way, especially since they will be sealed.

In the pic, the center measurement is for the entire center section. It will be divided in the middle for ease of transport mainly. Originally I was planning on doing this all as 1 box until I realized I should just build them separate since they wouldn't be sharing the same airspace anyways.

Let me know what you think. Like I said, I'll get some videos up once they arrive and of the build process. I'll also get some WinISD plots up and measurements for the ported box up soon. Been a long day... But planning on a port of 16hz or lower. If anyone has some ideas on the ported enclosure measurements, I appreciate any input!!
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post #2 of 171 Old 12-27-2018, 09:41 PM
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Go ahead and get four and run them all sealed, or just run two. But I’d run four in maybe smallish boxes, plenty of power and xmax on tap. There was something about the 20q not liking all channels driven.


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post #3 of 171 Old 12-27-2018, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
Go ahead and get four and run them all sealed, or just run two. But I’d run four in maybe smallish boxes, plenty of power and xmax on tap. There was something about the 20q not liking all channels driven.


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Budget and space didn't allow for 4. And did you mean the 20q didn't like it when not all channels were driven? Since I'm only planning on using 3?
The idea was to get as much potential output from each sub in my given space. Ported made sense for the rear sub. I don't get great output from the front of the room (per sub crawl) but obviously these will have a lot more output than my UM15. The rear corner is the best area in my space as far as output for subs. It should balance out the room having the 2 up front once tuned.

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post #4 of 171 Old 12-27-2018, 10:01 PM
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I might be mistaken but I think xbs told the boys to run all channels.

You can mix ported and sealed but it will probably complicate the integration. But in room heck anything can happen so could be fine too.


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post #5 of 171 Old 12-27-2018, 10:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
I might be mistaken but I think xbs told the boys to run all channels.

You can mix ported and sealed but it will probably complicate the integration. But in room heck anything can happen so could be fine too.


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Gotcha. Well if need be I could probably run the ported sub bridged and adjust the gain accordingly. I'll have to reach out to them and do some testing once I get things running. And yea I've seen where some don't like running ported and sealed together. But also seen plenty that do. Figured I'd give it a try. I can always build a smaller sealed enclosure if I don't like the results.

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post #6 of 171 Old 12-27-2018, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
I might be mistaken but I think xbs told the boys to run all channels.

You can mix ported and sealed but it will probably complicate the integration. But in room heck anything can happen so could be fine too.


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It may have been advice to run both sides at once, i.e at least one channel from 1 and 2 and one channel from 3 and 4.

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post #7 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
I might be mistaken but I think xbs told the boys to run all channels.

You can mix ported and sealed but it will probably complicate the integration. But in room heck anything can happen so could be fine too.


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Yeah the advice was not to only run one channel on the amp because that channel would see way to much power and pretty much fry itself with three going I'm sure you would be more than fine

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post #8 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 04:42 AM
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Gotcha. Well if need be I could probably run the ported sub bridged and adjust the gain accordingly. I'll have to reach out to them and do some testing once I get things running. And yea I've seen where some don't like running ported and sealed together. But also seen plenty that do. Figured I'd give it a try. I can always build a smaller sealed enclosure if I don't like the results.

The deal is that ported subs change phase in the lower frequencies making it harder to keep them all in phase across the subwoofer range. If you haven’t read the mtg90 sub integration it’s good, and this will make more sense. You adjust delay on the subs so that they are all in phase across as much of the listening area as possible. In theory this is impossible with a mix of cabinets because if you have them in phase at say 70hz they will inherently be somewhat out of phase lower. How much out depends on the particular sub and you can model it in winisd. After spending a couple days doing and re-doing two subs (and wishing it was four) I can appreciate trying to keep it simple.

But in reality it could decide to work out well in your room. A ported 24 will be totally insane and cool so there is that too.



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post #9 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 04:51 AM
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Subscribed! Going to be a nice build with nice videos!


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post #10 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 05:19 AM
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Yeah the advice was not to only run one channel on the amp because that channel would see way to much power and pretty much fry itself with three going I'm sure you would be more than fine

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Got it. I was thinking with two power supplies the amp was basically two amps in one box and so running one channel of a pair was similar to running one channel period, in that the power supply for those two channels would push just one, but that’s probably not how it actually works.



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post #11 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 05:33 AM
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The 24s on the 20kq are going to be awesome by the way. I can’t tell if you have room behind the seats to make a skinny sealed box back there, but that’s another approach, and then later add a fourth. The 24 near field is pretty cool and putting one right behind you might be more impact than the ported on the side.

Did you do the sub crawl with rew? There’s a lot of different info out there about sub placement, even the Geddes paper says one sub should almost always be in a corner, which is not what I’ve been finding. The more i work on integration with mains I think the more I appreciate how much the front and center placement works well, as in your two subs in front is good.

If you have a smaller sealed sub I would place it in the proposed locations and take measurements at the actual seating. I built a little 12 for fun out of used parts with a plate amp and it’s pretty handy, I used it a few days ago to try the corner and some other ideas without moving my screen and dragging the 24 over there, and was glad because it wasn’t a great location.



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post #12 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 06:22 AM
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There was something about the 20q not liking all channels driven.


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Says who I've never heard anything of the sort.

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post #13 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 06:47 AM
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Says who I've never heard anything of the sort.
Yeah I posted they dont want you to run just the one channel

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post #14 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 07:00 AM
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Operation Neighbor Tickler- Triple SI HS-24 MKIII Build

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
Says who I've never heard anything of the sort.


there was a discussion about it after notnyt blew the 22k



I wasn't trying to beat up on the 20k, I remembered wrong. I was thinking because it has two power supplies that the same would happen on each pair of outputs, but that must not be how it's wired internally. It also violates my ocd a bit to have an unused channel out there somewhere but that's something I have to work through on my own

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post #15 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 07:36 AM
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post #16 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 07:49 AM
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Awesome! I love those 24s!

However, I would not mix ported and sealed subs.

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post #17 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
there was a discussion about it after notnyt blew the 22k



I wasn't trying to beat up on the 20k, I remembered wrong. I was thinking because it has two power supplies that the same would happen on each pair of outputs, but that must not be how it's wired internally. It also violates my ocd a bit to have an unused channel out there somewhere but that's something I have to work through on my own


You can also bridge two channels together and make the 20q a two channel amp.
I run both of mine all channels driven pretty hard. They do good in this configuration.
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post #18 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, long quote post...



Quote:
Originally Posted by hd0823 View Post
Yeah the advice was not to only run one channel on the amp because that channel would see way to much power and pretty much fry itself with three going I'm sure you would be more than fine
Good to hear. Was not aware of the situation, but I'll most likely always have 2 or more channels running.


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Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
The deal is that ported subs change phase in the lower frequencies making it harder to keep them all in phase across the subwoofer range. If you haven’t read the mtg90 sub integration it’s good, and this will make more sense. You adjust delay on the subs so that they are all in phase across as much of the listening area as possible. In theory this is impossible with a mix of cabinets because if you have them in phase at say 70hz they will inherently be somewhat out of phase lower. How much out depends on the particular sub and you can model it in winisd. After spending a couple days doing and re-doing two subs (and wishing it was four) I can appreciate trying to keep it simple.

But in reality it could decide to work out well in your room. A ported 24 will be totally insane and cool so there is that too.
I'll have to try and find that. If you have a link please let me know. I did a lot of searching before coming up with my plans on ported and sealed in the same area. It seemed like with all of the EQ'ing you are able to do, most didn't have any issues integrating the two types of boxes. Whether that's actually the case.... I mainly wanted to port it since I am getting more response from that area of the room and is closer to matching the output of the 2 sealed subs up front in WinISD as far as output. So why not get MOAR!?! Sealed would definitely be easier and smaller, just figured I would use the space since I have it. I am open to doing all sealed, I'll read the stuff you posted about and go from there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vince_B View Post
The 24s on the 20kq are going to be awesome by the way. I can’t tell if you have room behind the seats to make a skinny sealed box back there, but that’s another approach, and then later add a fourth. The 24 near field is pretty cool and putting one right behind you might be more impact than the ported on the side.

Did you do the sub crawl with rew? There’s a lot of different info out there about sub placement, even the Geddes paper says one sub should almost always be in a corner, which is not what I’ve been finding. The more i work on integration with mains I think the more I appreciate how much the front and center placement works well, as in your two subs in front is good.
I can't wait to get it all going! I've heard some very impressive setups from a few other members on here. Hoping this will give me the same thrill. No room behind the seats to do anything (at least with a 24). Small tiled area in front of the sliding door to out back. Not an option with these unfortunately. And no REW just yet. Going to buy the mic and Mini DSP in the next few weeks. I currently have a sealed UM15 I'm running, so I can take some measurements with that, but my placement it pretty much decided by the layout of the room. Just going to have to EQ to match my area.


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Awesome! I love those 24s!

However, I would not mix ported and sealed subs.
See above response. I'll look into it more... The output it so much more than sealed though!!

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post #19 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 10:39 AM
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Ok, long quote post...




Good to hear. Was not aware of the situation, but I'll most likely always have 2 or more channels running.



I'll have to try and find that. If you have a link please let me know. I did a lot of searching before coming up with my plans on ported and sealed in the same area. It seemed like with all of the EQ'ing you are able to do, most didn't have any issues integrating the two types of boxes. Whether that's actually the case.... I mainly wanted to port it since I am getting more response from that area of the room and is closer to matching the output of the 2 sealed subs up front in WinISD as far as output. So why not get MOAR!?! Sealed would definitely be easier and smaller, just figured I would use the space since I have it. I am open to doing all sealed, I'll read the stuff you posted about and go from there.



I can't wait to get it all going! I've heard some very impressive setups from a few other members on here. Hoping this will give me the same thrill. No room behind the seats to do anything (at least with a 24). Small tiled area in front of the sliding door to out back. Not an option with these unfortunately. And no REW just yet. Going to buy the mic and Mini DSP in the next few weeks. I currently have a sealed UM15 I'm running, so I can take some measurements with that, but my placement it pretty much decided by the layout of the room. Just going to have to EQ to match my area.



See above response. I'll look into it more... The output it so much more than sealed though!!
One of the advantages of the hs24 is that it can deliver very low in room response in a sealed config. If you were to port one of them you'll prob get a bit of a mess down low where the port is delivering out of phase bass in comparison to the sealed subs. I would stick with three sealed if it was my money.

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post #20 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 11:23 AM
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See above response. I'll look into it more... The output it so much more than sealed though!!
Yes, but you won't need more output.
You will have the equivalent of at least 6 x 18s, probably more. There is no need to port them and waste the floor space.
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Do you have room to put two sealed on each side of the chairs with one under the screen? Or all 3 behind the chairs? Also as someone who owns sealed 24's I have never had anyone leave my theater room saying "man that's nice and all but you could use beffier subs" 3 of those bad boys will kill you 😀 I have two sealed in nearfield "awesome but almost a mistake "almost" they are so tactical 6in behind my couch I leave them off when in I play videogames the 18's are all I run unless watching a movie" I believe 3 sealed will put a huge smile on your face but make plans for a 4th later down the road cause you know you will wind up doing it
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post #22 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 06:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Do you have room to put two sealed on each side of the chairs with one under the screen? Or all 3 behind the chairs? Also as someone who owns sealed 24's I have never had anyone leave my theater room saying "man that's nice and all but you could use beffier subs" 3 of those bad boys will kill you 😀 I have two sealed in nearfield "awesome but almost a mistake "almost" they are so tactical 6in behind my couch I leave them off when in I play videogames the 18's are all I run unless watching a movie" I believe 3 sealed will put a huge smile on your face but make plans for a 4th later down the road cause you know you will wind up doing it
No, placement is kinda set where it is unfortunately. Trying to do the best I can while still making the space open/easy to navigate. And I bet that's an experience with them that close!! And I assume at some point a 4th will come. Maybe not in this house, but I will have 1 unused channel to do something with eventually...

Sealed is sounding better and better. My thinking was: eh, might as well since I have the space. But sealed would definitely be easier and dig deeper. Plus the ease of EQ. I'll sleep on it.
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post #23 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, but you won't need more output.
You will have the equivalent of at least 6 x 18s, probably more. There is no need to port them and waste the floor space.
Only 6?? Damn... Yea I hear ya. The box would be taller than anything else, not really bigger as far as footprint, but I know what you mean.

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post #24 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 06:15 PM
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Only 6?? Damn... Yea I hear ya. The box would be taller than anything else, not really bigger as far as footprint, but I know what you mean.
Plus, sometimes it is nice to have some stealth woofage without having the room filled with huge monoliths.

Then throw in a demo and watch everyone's eyes widen and mouths open!
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post #25 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post
Plus, sometimes it is nice to have some stealth woofage without having the room filled with huge monoliths.

Then throw in a demo and watch everyone's eyes widen and mouths open!
The one in the back will be somewhat hidden by the chairs. I have to tell most people where the sub is. But there will be no hiding the 48 inches of awesome on the front wall!!

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post #26 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 10:34 PM
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Use that spare amp channel for a bank of Crowsons under the chairs
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post #27 of 171 Old 12-28-2018, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post
Plus, sometimes it is nice to have some stealth woofage without having the room filled with huge monoliths.

Then throw in a demo and watch everyone's eyes widen and mouths open!

yeah but with monoliths, the mouths open twice!


I agree though, I would go sealed for all 3
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post #28 of 171 Old 12-29-2018, 07:13 AM
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No, placement is kinda set where it is unfortunately. Trying to do the best I can while still making the space open/easy to navigate. And I bet that's an experience with them that close!! And I assume at some point a 4th will come. Maybe not in this house, but I will have 1 unused channel to do something with eventually...

Sealed is sounding better and better. My thinking was: eh, might as well since I have the space. But sealed would definitely be easier and dig deeper. Plus the ease of EQ. I'll sleep on it.
Well, eq may not solve out of phase issues. Adding a lot more bass around port tune sounds good on paper, but when it results in cancellation and having less bass as a result....A single HS24 sealed hit 117 dB at 20 Hz in a field. Three of them in a room should be close to 130dB at 20 Hz. Probably less if you get cancellation around 20 Hz due to mixing alignments. As you said, you can always give it a try. If it were me and I had my heart set on trying the ported box, I would measure the output of both sealed, measure the output of the ported, then run them together and compare output around tune. If you don't get a lot of cancellation i.e. lower SPL combined than separate, then your good to go.
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post #29 of 171 Old 12-29-2018, 07:43 AM
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If it was me I would get the measurement gear since you have a sub you can test with. One thing I don't think has been mentioned is that with the seating close to the wall you are going to have some very strong response there and probably strong modes due to being near a boundary. Testing with your existing sub might help understand it, and if you had another test sub to put in the corner that would be ideal. One sub on the front wall centered between the future subs will be similar response to the two subs, enough to test. Then you will be able to see the effect of the side sub.

I have two hs24 in sealed boxes on a 14k in a room 18x14x8. There are six 2x4 two inch thick yellow fiberglass board absorbers, mainly for first reflections. I don't listen crazy loud and run the bass a little hot, and some bass eq. It's plenty of bass, if it's wanting anything it's more subs to even out the response more, or more near field. If you just want max output and you listen loud, ported makes sense. If you mostly listen at -10 and run the bass hot, the sealed boxes will be plenty. It plays EOT intro at -10 without sweating which would probably be reference level if the bass wasn't hot. It's plenty loud. Loud though, isn't the real issue, these subs are super capable. Even response is the real challenge. Bigger rooms are better, they take more power and subs but will have smoother response in general, and open plan seems to be great, for response if not ultimate volume.

Once you get measurement gear and start working it out you'll understand better the challenge of getting even response across the seating. And once that happens, you might appreciate smaller boxes that allow more flexibility of placement. In our family room I have two uxl up front and two 15" on the sides near the surrounds. It's tempting to think that the 15 can't keep up, but in reality they provide great smoothing effect, mostly because they help excite one room mode more evenly across the seating, which makes it easier to eq out. The chair my wife likes is near a wall and had a killer mode. So I either turn down the bass, or found that the side subs then cause that mode to be excited all across the seating, which means when the audyssey runs it nukes that everywhere. Wasn't an approach I would think of but it was super effective.

Here is each sub alone, both subs, and post audyssey. Lightest blue is front, next light blue is rear, both centered in room on front/rear wall, dark blue both, red post audyssey. I have a wicked issue around 85hz which the waterfall shows but since we're moving it isn't gonna get addressed more than likely. You can see also the modes that swing the response like crazy. Ultimately I think the thing is that you can have such a challenge to get good response without the added issue of ported/sealed phase issues.



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post #30 of 171 Old 12-29-2018, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Well congrats boys. This is one of the rare situations where the advise taken will make the wife happy lol! I'll plan on all the subs being sealed. I'll get into details more after work.
I assume building the box in the back corner bigger than the other 2 won't be an issue being sealed? Like 12 cu ft vs the 9 cu ft boxes up front
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