Who else wants an 899? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by craig s king View Post
i want a 2199.
perfect!!!

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post #32 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 09:02 AM
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Well I just emailed Erich to see if I should look into this more. If anyone has suggestions for blistering high sensitivity mids I’m all ears. Might need to use a 6” mid but then the speaker will be taller especially as a center....
That's the problem for those of us that need a horizontal center under our TV's.I would have 1099's if I had the
space.I think there would be a market for something sized between the Fusion 4 center and 893/Fusion 8 center in a three way.
Just not sure it's physically possible.

Physics being the key word.

I'm interested in seeing what you can come up with.
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post #33 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Well I just emailed Erich to see if I should look into this more. If anyone has suggestions for blistering high sensitivity mids I’m all ears. Might need to use a 6” mid but then the speaker will be taller especially as a center....
Curious question...Was the 893 limited to 93db because of the mids or as a compromise for the 8's to gain extension? I guess if the mids were the limiting factor, I fully understand why you'd add in the extension instead of just wasting the efficiency of a more efficient 8" model.

As Mark said above, I'd love to just grab 3 1099 but they'd be a bit big for my living room.
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post #34 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 05:14 PM
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I think it was the sealed back 8" woofer used that made it a "93".If I remember correctly.
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post #35 of 108 Old 01-13-2019, 05:31 PM
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The mids were sealed back and the woofers were open back. But it was the mids that limited the sensitivity.

It’s really hard to find a pair of 4” mids that can do better than 93db. And keep in mind it has to be an honest 93db on an actual speaker. I think the mids we used were about 94 or 95 measured but impedance was low and once the response was normalized they were about 92. Even finding mids for the 1099 was hard with dual 5s and I had to use some band pass gain to get it to 99. The 1299 wasn’t hard.
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post #36 of 108 Old 01-14-2019, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
What a lot of people forget is that 93db is pretty solid sensitivity. In this forum we’re all so used to 99 or even higher that 93 sounds pathetic. There were also one or two goofed up builds when the speaker first launched and threads like that with bad first impressions really kill a product.
This. I'm just using a Rotel 120WPC amp on my 893s, and they can easily blow you off the couch. Granted my ears are only 8 feet away, but I have a smaller space so I wanted a smaller form factor speaker. To me, that was the beauty (and the purpose) of the 893 size. I'm guessing the design goals of the 893 was not to play above reference in a massive room.

Coming from 85-86db NHT speakers, I am plenty happy with 93db.
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post #37 of 108 Old 01-14-2019, 09:40 AM
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Who else wants an 899?

What do you think is the sensitivity of my dual woofer titans? Did adding the second woofer in parallel effect it much?

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post #38 of 108 Old 01-14-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg35 View Post
I think it was the sealed back 8" woofer used that made it a "93".If I remember correctly.
I can't see a closed back woofer being used on these, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If it were closed back woofers, these could have been open baffle and used voodoo to operate. Right?
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post #39 of 108 Old 01-14-2019, 02:36 PM
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I can't see a closed back woofer being used on these, but correct me if I'm wrong.

If it were closed back woofers, these could have been open baffle and used voodoo to operate. Right?
I didn't have a huge room and decided to go with the 893's and Volt 6's. I've been extremely happy with the setup. I have an Emotiva XPA-3 on the 893's. It's a bit overkill but I've never strained the amp or speakers and it will get very loud with little to no stress. The volt's keep up just fine. I have an 8 channel Rotel amp on the Volt's and 4 in-ceiling speakers. The 1099's were just a bit large for the room and the center wouldn't have fit under the screen. I'm starting a new project and would love to see a floor standing kit for L,R with a matching center.
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post #40 of 108 Old 01-14-2019, 10:42 PM
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FTR

my F4's , as surrounds, about 6-7" off the wall, - XT32 put the xo @40 hz
same thing when later moved to FH's about 24" out from the wall . .

replaced F4's with 88 Specials last year and XT32 cut the trim from like +4 to -9
driven off the same channels thru the ATI amp

for a matching LCR, the F15's could be modded to about 5.5 ft^3 for about 45-50 hz, iirc,
maybe even lower. . we have science

it's been done here at AVS, just can't remember who atm

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post #41 of 108 Old 01-15-2019, 12:46 AM
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I would love to build some narrow(er) mtm / mmtmm build (to replace my huge current huge fat Seos build)
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post #42 of 108 Old 01-15-2019, 05:44 PM
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inspiration.
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post #43 of 108 Old 01-15-2019, 09:47 PM
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I like my 893s

I built my towers with the horn/mid section on top, 2.5 ft cabs, tuned to high 30's. The center is the standard sealed setup. I would like to see higher sensitivity mids, to go with higher sensitivity woofs. I also want to cram it into about the same space we use now.. Nothing to it - right? I shouldn't complain at all, because those towers go deep enough to not really need my subs. It was sad to see the 893s fail in the marketplace, yet be such good speakers.
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post #44 of 108 Old 01-16-2019, 06:54 PM
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I looked back through my pictures from a few years ago when I was drawing the Maximus stuff and this was another idea I had for the 8" 3-way model. Using the same 6.5" sealed back midrange from the Titan the center channel cabinet would have to be 12.75" tall which is 2.5" taller than the 893.

Doing this would have some benefits if 12.75" wasn't too tall. Those left/right towers could be made into bass bins that were a little bigger and could be tuned pretty low if the original 893 rubber surround woofers were used again. The cabinet for the HTM-6 with an unported baffle could be the top section because it's basically the same thing that's in the drawing.

Or we go with the higher efficiency 8's used in the 88-Special, but I would get a new black coned woofer model. Those can give some decent midbass if tuned properly.

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post #45 of 108 Old 01-16-2019, 07:10 PM
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Comparison of those next to the original 893's.

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post #46 of 108 Old 01-16-2019, 10:19 PM
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All things considered, I like the originals best. If I could fit a 12.75" baffle under my TV, I would want 10" woofers....1099?
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post #47 of 108 Old 01-17-2019, 10:52 AM - Thread Starter
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All things considered, I like the originals best. If I could fit a 12.75" baffle under my TV, I would want 10" woofers....1099?
Agreed
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post #48 of 108 Old 01-17-2019, 11:12 AM
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my 2c is the 8s arent big enough to become very popular as a tower
klipsch has consistently released a multiwoofer 2 way that is inexpensive and excellent
and imo will divert much of the enthusiasm for diy

the waveguides are not matched by klipsch, only jbl in their better models
i would start by offering the 1099 again in tower form...requiring almost no redesign...its been done! alarger waveguide would be welcome imo...its the advantage the htms have

cheaper, better and more impressive than an rf7
1299s as a tower might also be popular

offering an 899 center, and even a 699 center or similar would win the day as so many have space limitations in the center...that closely match the 1099
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post #49 of 108 Old 01-17-2019, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
my 2c is the 8s arent big enough to become very popular as a tower
klipsch has consistently released a multiwoofer 2 way that is inexpensive and excellent
and imo will divert much of the enthusiasm for diy

the waveguides are not matched by klipsch, only jbl in their better models
i would start by offering the 1099 again in tower form...requiring almost no redesign...its been done! alarger waveguide would be welcome imo...its the advantage the htms have

cheaper, better and more impressive than an rf7
1299s as a tower might also be popular

offering an 899 center, and even a 699 center or similar would win the day as so many have space limitations in the center...that closely match the 1099
I agree with you here. I would like 1099s to replace my Polk Monitor 70s. I'm discouraged due to height requirements. I need to either build a stand or buy one somehow, neither task I really feel up to, and I also prefer the look of towers. A tower version of the 1099 would fill my needs perfectly.

If not, I like the look of those 8's as towers, but like others have said, 12.75" is too tall of a center just for some 8s. Especially considering that is taller (although not as long) as the 1099 (12.5" W x 36.25" H x 14.5" D).

so in my opinion 1099 towers or 8" towers with a lower profile center channel (somehow...I think we are battling physics here)
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post #50 of 108 Old 01-17-2019, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
my 2c is the 8s arent big enough to become very popular as a tower
klipsch has consistently released a multiwoofer 2 way that is inexpensive and excellent
and imo will divert much of the enthusiasm for diy

the waveguides are not matched by klipsch, only jbl in their better models
i would start by offering the 1099 again in tower form...requiring almost no redesign...its been done! alarger waveguide would be welcome imo...its the advantage the htms have

cheaper, better and more impressive than an rf7
1299s as a tower might also be popular

offering an 899 center, and even a 699 center or similar would win the day as so many have space limitations in the center...that closely match the 1099
It's just my opinion on the 893, that the efficiency was a deterrent in it's sales...and mostly the perception that 93db isn't enough since we're all used to 98+ around here. At the same time, it sounds like from earlier in this thread that a true 899 is almost impossible because of the efficiency of the 4" mids. I've considered the Fusion 8 towers and center but it would be nice to see it redesigned to the SEOS waveguide instead of the EOS...Again I'm not sure if there was a design reason that the EOS was chosen instead of the SEOS. That's been so long, I don't think the SEOS 8 had been made in plastic yet.
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post #51 of 108 Old 01-18-2019, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
my 2c is the 8s arent big enough to become very popular as a tower
klipsch has consistently released a multiwoofer 2 way that is inexpensive and excellent
and imo will divert much of the enthusiasm for diy

the waveguides are not matched by klipsch, only jbl in their better models
i would start by offering the 1099 again in tower form...requiring almost no redesign...its been done! alarger waveguide would be welcome imo...its the advantage the htms have

cheaper, better and more impressive than an rf7
1299s as a tower might also be popular

offering an 899 center, and even a 699 center or similar would win the day as so many have space limitations in the center...that closely match the 1099

Quote:
Originally Posted by d-rail34 View Post
I personally like the idea of having an 8" 99 design for use in a living room setting. That's definitely something that I can see people choosing over the 1099 for this type of application considering the size difference. Especially where the center is concerned, and would be better suited to pair with smaller subs.

The only reason that I've decided to go with the 1099's is because I like the idea of pairing those with a set of 18" subs. Although, my wife is not fond of either of those ideas, and would probably be more understanding with an 8" model...and me just keeping my PB12 Plus. Lol
I really have no horse in this race as I am a layman when it comes to the pure technical aspects of speaker design, so my apologies if I sound out of my league here. That said I would love to give DIY a try at some point. But I agree that narrower towers are more appealing in a living room. I myself have always preferred and am used to a more traditional modern slim tower design that stands roughly 42"-46" tall. I like the original designs Erich has shown us for the 8XX towers. Also think it could be cool to do s SEOS design that mimics a configuration like the Polk RTi A9 where you have MTM on the top and then 3 woofers.
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post #52 of 108 Old 01-18-2019, 05:15 PM
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One of the benefits of the 893's was the ability to build a ported tower version the would go down in the 30's db range.It takes a pretty large box however.

Which brings us back to.. if your building that big of a box..why not build a larger version of the 1099's or go with 1299's

The 893's had something the larger ones don't though...

A smaller horizontal center for those of us who need it to fit under our TV's.
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post #53 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 09:41 AM
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The 893's had something the larger ones don't though...

A smaller horizontal center for those of us who need it to fit under our TV's.
This. There was a time that I would have bought a single 893 center channel kit if it had been available separately. A true 3-way high-efficiency horizontal center that's just over 10" high is a pretty awesome thing for folks trying to have a high-performance theater in their living rooms.

But the market is fickle and Erich can't just keep stocking everything forever, especially if people aren't buying them. And this was a custom-made Eminence woofer too? Wow.
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post #54 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 12:52 PM
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But the market is fickle and Erich can't just keep stocking everything forever, especially if people aren't buying them. And this was a custom-made Eminence woofer too? Wow.
The 893 project was actually the most expensive speaker project yet. The SEOS-8 was designed and made for it and so were the custom 8" woofers. Then getting flat packs, custom shipping boxes, and all the other parts really added up. The SEOS-8's will eventually get used in other projects, so not a big deal there. If you guys think we should try more of the 893's I can order another run of the 8" woofers and flat packs. I've got everything else here.

There's really no way to get a legit 99db sensitivity out of midranges that can fit under a waveguide and still keep the height around 11" or less and the width under control. The other short 3 way option would be getting the Volt-6 or 8 made into a sealed back midrange/coaxial and then put it between two woofers. Used as a midrange, the sealed back 8" coaxial might get up around 97db, but I'm not 100% sure.
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post #55 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 02:07 PM
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There's really no way to get a legit 99db sensitivity out of midranges that can fit under a waveguide and still keep the height around 11" or less and the width under control.
Just a few ponderings,

The 1099 would be 12.5" tall when laid horizontal using 3/4" MDF. If you used 1/2" baltic birch instead, that would drop it to 12" in height. Now replace the SEOS 10 with a SEOS 8 and that would drop the height another 1.2 inches for a height of 10.8 inches. Replace the 10's with the 8's from the 88 Special to narrow the horizontal cabinet by another 4 inches. You have all that extra space above the 8's and the horn is now narrower than the 5" mids--put a slot/triangle/round vent between the horn flare and the 8's. I'm sure with a slight change to the bezel, it could be made 10.75 inches tall. The point of putting the slot vents above the 8's (or below if you can fit them there) is to remove the extra 1.5" wide slot vents from either side of the 1099.

The 36.25" width of the 1099 drops to 35.75" by using 1/2" BB, drops another 3.7" because of flange width between the Delta 10 and Beta 8 for 32.05 inches then another 3" because of eliminating two 1.5" wide ports off the sides. Roughly 30"W X 10.8"H X XX D for the "898" using a SEOS 8 horn, 5" mids from the 1099 and two 8's from the 88 Special (and Fusion 8 if it comes back)

Figure if 1/2" baltic birch used in the Fusion 8's was good, using the same 1/2" baltic birch for the "898" would also be good. The 1099 center section seales off the air space between the two woofers so no worries about stiffness with proper braces. The HTM 6 uses the SEOS 8 waveguide at 1600Hz so the roughly 1700Hz crossover point for the 1099 makes it not an issue. The "898" can use a mix of existing parts with only the bezel, flatpack and crossover being different. No worries about custom drivers, more inventory of drivers and all that jazz. It won't be a bass monster but the two 8" drivers in my 88 Special work very well as a center--as long as you use subs.

The "898" would be a center that has a face that is 28.5% smaller than the 1099 and only a drop of half to one dB of efficiency. Since it uses the same mids and compression driver as the 1099, it should have very close timbre to the 1099 while being smaller, quite a bit lighter because of 1/2" BB and yet not give up much. Although, generally speaking, your customers don't think of custom drivers much--you sure do!

I pondered "rolling my own "898" because my furiture could not be modified to hold something that wide. I then figured out how to modify the furniture to hold the 88 Special so went in that direction. Still, I don't think many people would complain with the "898" and it would be less expensive as an extra bonus. Sure, baltic birch is expensive but the cost savings on the kit end should cover the increased cost of a 1/2" baltic birch flatpack.

Just a few thoughts on a cold day--an idle mind is the DIY playground". Have a great weekend and looking forward to those Neo coaxials.
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post #56 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 03:13 PM
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The reason that layout wasn't done is because it didn't really fit in with how the other 2 models were designed. At one point there was going to be a 1599 with the dual 8's under the SEOS-15, but shipping baffles like that becomes an issue.

If I have time tonight I'll draw up what you mentioned.

Before the SEOS-8 I did draw out the 1099, but with just the 10" woofers changed for 8". It didn't look horrible because I moved the 8's up on the baffle and put ports under the 8" woofers, so it really shrunk it's width down......but not the height.

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post #57 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 04:15 PM
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How high can you get the volt 6 sensitivity? Eminence has 97.8db 6-1/2s so that seems like a possibility or at least 96. That could be used as a triple 6 with no waveguide, a three way, very short and narrow, and relatively cheap. Easy to make the matching L&R also. Or forget the L&R and only offer the center for those that want a big L&R but need a small center.
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post #58 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 04:17 PM
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Now that I think about it. You don't even need different designs for L&R. The same speaker can be used in any orientation.
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post #59 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 04:55 PM
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Nicely done 18!
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post #60 of 108 Old 01-19-2019, 06:55 PM
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Here's what the 893 would look like with the same mids from the 1099, but with the SEOS-8 and 8" woofers. This cabinet is 11" tall and 30" wide, but it would really need to be closer to 11.25" because there's only about .35" of space above the waveguide and blow the mids. That might be a lot of design work to save about 1.25" of height.

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