Dual Opposed Dayton UM-18's for infrasonic art installation - Page 4 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #91 of 113 Old 01-23-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by subbuilds View Post
Thank you, so simple.

I think I am going to get 1 driver and build a test box. I really don't have any big subwoofer experience so I think I need to hear a box to even begin to decide where the db need to be. I know it is cheaper to buy all 6 but can get the remaining 5 in 1 shot.

Now I need to pick an amp or multiple amps.
Not a bad plan at all. Just be sure to account for output of the sub versus the room it is playing in. If you place one of these in a pantry and listen there, you'll think you've built too much. Listen to it in a gym, and you'll give up thinking it's impossible.

Wish I could tell you about the appropriate ratio for output of one sub/cubic feet listening area, but that's a little beyond my understandings. This is a pretty fun thread to follow though, good luck with your project!!
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post #92 of 113 Old 01-23-2019, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
A bandpass is actually to boxes hooked together. The driver is between them and there is a port coming out of one of the boxes. All you actually hear is the port. You could tune the port to say 24 hz which would give you output down to 15 and up to 30.
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there is no other way to get significant SPL in the limited range you need on less power. It is one of the cases IMHO where there is a very specific solution to the problem you are posing.
As I think about this more, how can a 4th order bandpass possibly be more efficient than a ported box? With a ported box you get the back wave of the driver resonating a mass of air in the port, and with a 4th order bandpass you still only get one wave of the driver resonating a mass of air in the port. The difference between the two boxes becomes the other wave, which is sealed off in the 4th order bandpass, yet active in the ported box. So it seems the ported box does everything the 4th order bandpass does while also getting contribution from the front wave.

Then I thought since a 6th order bandpass is essentially two ported boxes, that could actually be more efficient, but the waves are by definition out-of-phase so you can't tune both boxes of the bandpass the same. So you still can't do any better at a particular frequency than the ported box.

Maybe a series-tuned 6th order bandpass could do the trick, since it is a ported box within a box, if you can get the inner box and outer box to resonate together. Unfortunately, I don't know how to model a series-tuned 6th order bandpass.

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post #93 of 113 Old 01-23-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
As I think about this more, how can a 4th order bandpass possibly be more efficient than a ported box? With a ported box you get the back wave of the driver resonating a mass of air in the port, and with a 4th order bandpass you still only get one wave of the driver resonating a mass of air in the port. The difference between the two boxes becomes the other wave, which is sealed off in the 4th order bandpass, yet active in the ported box. So it seems the ported box does everything the 4th order bandpass does while also getting contribution from the front wave.

Then I thought since a 6th order bandpass is essentially two ported boxes, that could actually be more efficient, but the waves are by definition out-of-phase so you can't tune both boxes of the bandpass the same. So you still can't do any better at a particular frequency than the ported box.

Maybe a series-tuned 6th order bandpass could do the trick, since it is a ported box within a box, if you can get the inner box and outer box to resonate together. Unfortunately, I don't know how to model a series-tuned 6th order bandpass.
https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374210-Bandpass-Enclosure-Characteristics?mobile_site=true

Actually you can get a LOT of gain. The are always trade-offs. You may end up with worse transients, perhaps less damping, a narrower response curve. The are more complex because you have two box volumes and a port to deal with, but with a given input you get more output than a closed or ported box.

I've only ever built a single reflex so not really sure the advantage of a dual reflex configuration. Seems like with the latter you'd need a highpass filter for sure whereas the closed box in the single reflex would limit driver excursion better.
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post #94 of 113 Old 01-23-2019, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
https://jlaudio.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/204374210-Bandpass-Enclosure-Characteristics?mobile_site=true

Actually you can get a LOT of gain. The are always trade-offs. You may end up with worse transients, perhaps less damping, a narrower response curve. The are more complex because you have two box volumes and a port to deal with, but with a given input you get more output than a closed or ported box.

I've only ever built a single reflex so not really sure the advantage of a dual reflex configuration. Seems like with the latter you'd need a highpass filter for sure whereas the closed box in the single reflex would limit driver excursion better.
I played around modeling 4th order bandpasses in WinISD and I could not get one to outperform a ported box at the same size. It behaved as a port-only of a ported box, essentially, which is exactly as I theorized above.

Can you share a specific 4th order bandpass design for the UM18 that will outperform a ported box of the same total size?

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post #95 of 113 Old 01-23-2019, 06:03 PM
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I apologise -- I'm working 60 hrs a week and trying to fill out paperwork for a new job I just landed. I'm also renewing passport so doing that paperwork. And making a pie for pie club tomorrow -- last night I slept 4 hrs! If someone can't help you I could try maybe some time next week?

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post #96 of 113 Old 04-24-2019, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Project Update

I purchased 4 Dayton UM-18's and am building 4 Full Marty ported boxes. According to my 3D modeling software the internal volume minus the ports, the bracing and the driver is 10.4 cubic feet rather than the standard 11 cubic feet for the Full Marty design.

There are 3 ports that are 2.5 inches tall 7 inches wide and 56 inches long for a box tune of 15hz. The 11cu Full Marty calls for 3 inch tall 7.5 inch wide ports that are 36 inches in length for a box tune of 17hz.

Winisd tells me to make the ports longer than the Full Marty's 36 inches. I have read on the forums that with a ported box Winsid makes the vents too long. Is that the case?

In the middle of fabrication and want to get this right so any advice is appreciated. For now I plan to make the vents what Winisd says.

Vent Size from Winisd


Box Size Entered in Winisd


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post #97 of 113 Old 04-24-2019, 07:41 AM
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Is that pine plywood? If so, you better brace the heck out of it, as the pine is not ideal for sub boxes and will vibrate/have a resonant frequency.
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post #98 of 113 Old 04-24-2019, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Is that pine plywood? If so, you better brace the heck out of it, as the pine is not ideal for sub boxes and will vibrate/have a resonant frequency.

Yes, I plan to brace it a lot. I read in other threads that plywood vs mdf did not matter if braced well. I chose plywood for the weight savings since these have to be moved around. Hopefully I do not regret that choice.
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post #99 of 113 Old 04-24-2019, 02:51 PM
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I think the general rule is to take 10% off the WinISD port length. Did that for the only sub I designed and the tuning seemed to be +/- .5hz of the tune I was shooting for. Don't forget to update us on how it all turns out!
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post #100 of 113 Old 04-24-2019, 04:59 PM
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I think the general rule is to take 10% off the WinISD port length. Did that for the only sub I designed and the tuning seemed to be +/- .5hz of the tune I was shooting for. Don't forget to update us on how it all turns out!
^^ That. I took 12% off the port length on each of my last 4 sub builds and ended up +/- 1 on the targeted tune from MLP. Wondering now what they measure close mic.
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post #101 of 113 Old 05-12-2019, 05:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I purchased a Behringer NX6000D amplifier to power the drivers.

It has a 14 gauge 15 amp plug. That means it will not pull the full available 20 amps from the power receptacle from the wall.

I have 4 UM-18 drivers. Each has two 2 ohm voice coils. I will wire the voice coils of each driver in series to get four 4 ohm loads. Then I will wire two pairs of 2 drivers in series to get two 8 ohm loads.

These two 8 ohm loads will each be hooked to an output channel of the amp.

The amp says that it provides 1600w x2 @ 8 ohms. If each channel is halved due to the boxes being wired in series, then I would have 800w at each box. I assume I will not get 800w continuously at low hz.

I will be sending only low hz signals to the drivers, 16hz - 40hz or so.

In WinISD it says I will get ~105 db at 3 meters supplying 400w. Will I get 400w continuous low hz power to each driver?

Are there amps with 20amp plugs that use all the available power from a 20amp circuit? Should I use 2 amps? I amp power limited but want to make sure that I am using all the power that is available.

Thank you.
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post #102 of 113 Old 05-12-2019, 06:18 AM
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There are lots of amps that will use greater than 20 amps, but don't fear, you will get some room gain. Since you already have the amp, try running in the configuration you had planned with the subs in place and see if the output meets your needs.
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post #103 of 113 Old 05-12-2019, 06:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Since you already have the amp, try running in the configuration you had planned with the subs in place and see if the output meets your needs.
Thanks. I plan to do tests in the coming week but won't be able to test in the actual space until install so am trying to cover all contingencies in advance but you are right, best to get some benchmark empirical data of the setup and go from there.
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post #104 of 113 Old 05-13-2019, 10:42 AM
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1 sub per channel is always best.
Whether it is "required" for this application depends. Testing it will reveal that.

If the room they are going in is significantly bigger, then it might be best to test these outside, as that will be worst-case scenario (i.e. no room gain.)
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post #105 of 113 Old 05-13-2019, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by subbuilds View Post
I purchased a Behringer NX6000D amplifier to power the drivers.

It has a 14 gauge 15 amp plug. That means it will not pull the full available 20 amps from the power receptacle from the wall.

I have 4 UM-18 drivers. Each has two 2 ohm voice coils. I will wire the voice coils of each driver in series to get four 4 ohm loads. Then I will wire two pairs of 2 drivers in series to get two 8 ohm loads.

These two 8 ohm loads will each be hooked to an output channel of the amp.

The amp says that it provides 1600w x2 @ 8 ohms. If each channel is halved due to the boxes being wired in series, then I would have 800w at each box. I assume I will not get 800w continuously at low hz.

I will be sending only low hz signals to the drivers, 16hz - 40hz or so.

In WinISD it says I will get ~105 db at 3 meters supplying 400w. Will I get 400w continuous low hz power to each driver?

Are there amps with 20amp plugs that use all the available power from a 20amp circuit? Should I use 2 amps? I amp power limited but want to make sure that I am using all the power that is available.

Thank you.



Your simplistic analysis is missing some crucial information. The impedance profile of the cabinet in question, and the phase angle of the load determine the 'real' power, rather than apparent power.



Breakers pass many times their rated power for short periods. Googling 'breaker trip curves' will give you a wealth of information on the subject. It's not uncommon for a 15 amp breaker to pass more than 45 amps, for very brief periods.



Capacitor banks in the amplifier supply burst power, they recharge and discharge continuously, keeping the rail voltage from sagging under high current demands. In some switch mode power supplies, this can be as high as 400 khz. If I recall correctly, the QSC Powerlight series is around 230 khz.



Try it with one amp and see if you hit your output target. Maybe even rent an amplifier before you commit to purchase.
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post #106 of 113 Old 05-17-2019, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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If the room they are going in is significantly bigger, then it might be best to test these outside, as that will be worst-case scenario (i.e. no room gain.)
I wired one driver in one of the ported boxes to test. I did this outside. I setup the NX6000D with the settings from another thread to have a filter for 20hz and then a -4db shelf to go below. Since only one driver is connected I set the limit to 4ohms 1700 watts.

I played some test tones. I started with 40hz to be safe. Then I did a 20hz and a 16hz. The 16hz really made some air feeling. Now I have a new concern. How do I not break my drivers.

The 16hz test tone was from a ~1 minute youtube video. All of a sudden I heard a pop and I thought I blew my driver. I took it out expecting to see smoke but everything looked good. I reinstalled it and tested again at 30hz. It worked fine. I pressed the spacebar on my laptop to pause the video and I heard the pop. Now I think the first pop was the video ending and the signal being cut to the driver suddenly.

How do I prevent this? I want to have pulses of high db low hz sounds. Do I need to design the sounds so they do not cut off too quickly?

How much should I limit the amp to make sure I do not destroy the subs? I will have 2 drivers in series on each channel so an 8 ohm load per channel.

I am hesitant to really turn the amp knob up. Sub noob advice appreciated. Thanks.
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post #107 of 113 Old 05-17-2019, 05:03 PM
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First off. Never trust youtube videos, often idiots upload videos and the frequencies aren't even correct, or excessively clipped.

I'd just use REW or Audacity tone generator, Audacity has a fade in/out feature. Adobe Audition if you want to control the slopes yourself (but not free).

You could install the cones inverted with the magnets hanging out and use a laser thermometer from walmart/any hardware store. If the coil is too hot to touch, then that is starting to approach the heat danger-zone.
As for bottoming, you'll know because you will hear clacking and the cone excursion will be crazy (the UM-18 is rated for about ~2inches P-P, 1inch inward and 1inch outward).

Once you get to know the system better then you can mount the drivers normally.

Ported boxes require a HPF at the tuning frequency otherwise it will bottom out below that, but since this is an exhibit you'll have known material so it is not really required, as long as you are careful.

For starters I'd set the limiter to 300w @ 4-ohm for 1 or 600w @ 8-ohm for 2. It "should" be able to do that wattage all day long. You'll have to perform long-duration tests to confirm, ramping up the wattage slowly until you find the thermal limit.

An 8 hour exhibit will be more stressful than a 3 minute song.
You'll want to keep an eye of the amplifiers too to make sure they aren't overheating.
That is what 30 day and 1 year warranties are for, costco-style I suppose!
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post #108 of 113 Old 05-17-2019, 06:11 PM - Thread Starter
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First off. Never trust youtube videos, often idiots upload videos and the frequencies aren't even correct, or excessively clipped.

I'd just use REW or Audacity tone generator, Audacity has a fade in/out feature. Adobe Audition if you want to control the slopes yourself (but not free).
.

Yeah, I started making test tones in audacity instead. I have Audition also, so will make some tones there as well. I want to make quick hard hitting pulses, then silence, then more hits. Should be able to do that in Audition.

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You could install the cones inverted with the magnets hanging out and use a laser thermometer from walmart/any hardware store.
So smart. I will definitely do this. I kept touching the cone with wishfull thinking that I could feel if it started to build up heat but now I can monitor it directly. I will hook up more drivers inverted tomorrow with the better limit protections and do more testing.

Thanks.
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post #109 of 113 Old 05-18-2019, 09:59 AM
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Also don't keep it in direct sunlight for long, the ultra-violet and infra-red will do wonders to the longevity, cooking it from the inside out. (But I'm sure you already knew that...)
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post #110 of 113 Old 05-18-2019, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Also don't keep it in direct sunlight for long, the ultra-violet and infra-red will do wonders to the longevity, cooking it from the inside out. (But I'm sure you already knew that...)
Thanks, yeah got them in the shade and will be moving them in soon. As per your advice I set the limit to 600 watts.

In Audacity I generated a 16hz tone for .0625 seconds. That is 1 divided by 16. This means that it starts and stops at zero power so it doesn't pop the sub. Is this a good way to get short deep bursts?

Since the burst is short I took a chance and upped the limit to 1000w and turned the knobs of the amp up with 2 drivers attached. It played fine but...

I hear the sub. It is like a floppy rubber sound. The same thing happens it I play test tones. It seems like the speaker material moving is making noise. Is this inevitable?

Ideally it would be silent except for the impact of the sub 20hz sound?
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post #111 of 113 Old 05-18-2019, 07:17 PM
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Have you made sure it's not the sound of the air moving in the port (chuffing)?

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post #112 of 113 Old 05-19-2019, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by subbuilds View Post

I hear the sub. It is like a floppy rubber sound. The same thing happens it I play test tones. It seems like the speaker material moving is making noise. Is this inevitable?

Ideally it would be silent except for the impact of the sub 20hz sound?
Sounds like mechanical noises, which will come from the surround stretching and contracting combined with the suspension. The UM18 is actually pretty quiet in regards to mechanical noise, the fact that its easily hidden by the content being played means it hasn't really come up as an issue with most builders. The bad part is you are only playing subsonic frequencies and thus the noise from the surround will be noticeable. Will these be underneath or behind something? a simple barrier should dampen the mechanical noise enough to not be very noticeable.


Also this is assuming the driver will be used at the upper mechanical limits. The noise usually isn't there unless you are asking for a lot of excursion.
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post #113 of 113 Old 05-20-2019, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Will these be underneath or behind something? a simple barrier should dampen the mechanical noise enough to not be very noticeable.
Yes, the boxes will be behind a soft inflatable. I will have to wait until install to see how it muffles the sound. Start install in a little over a week so I will know soon.
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