Mid-bass can you come to me. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 13 Old 01-20-2019, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Help!!Mid-bass can you come to me.

Currently my set up consist of

Fronts: Def tech 8020
Center: Cs8040hd
Ceiling: Franklin IB65CA (not in use future atmos upgrade)
Surr: Acoustic Research PL900SAT
Sub: SVS Pc12-NSD (OLDER WITH BASH AMP)
UM-18 Mini Marty powered by Crown XLS 1502 BRIDGED.
Avr: DENON AVR-590

The um18 was in a sealed enclosure around 7cu.ft for about 2 years but it seemed I was still missing some umph I guess you could say roughly under 30hz. So I built a mini-marty in November and I have to say I am very pleased with it.

Now I can actually feel my couch vibrate!!! John Wick Club Shoot out sceen is really nice.

But something is missing. I would like more MID-BASS. I want to feel more punch in my heart and soul lol. With what I am looling for I probably wont get a whole lot more but I'm positive it can be an upgrade. I can only run 2 subwoofers for now.

This will involved getting rid of the SVS SUB and doing another DIY. The only problem is I am strange and so is the S.O. Enclosure needs to be same as MiniMarty port length can be changed. Looking at the PA460 and the BC 18DS115.

What are your thoughts/ideas?

Future plans within next couple months
Onkyo Tx-RZ820 or Denon equivalent. Fiancee really likes the price of the Onkyo. I want something that has preouts.

Thanks

P.s. I need to get a UMIK and do some testing

Last edited by dsmrider07; 01-20-2019 at 11:44 AM.
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post #2 of 13 Old 01-20-2019, 05:11 PM
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Either will have a massive increase in mid-bass, the B&C is of higher build quality, but also more money.

The UM-18 is only like 88db/w/m, it's not a mid-bass monster, no car/ht subs are...

Chest kick is in the 50-300hz range. If you box model it you can see just how many UM-18's and watts it takes to match say 4 or 8 PA-460's tuned to 40hz...

Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.

Solving 30-300hz is cheap and small.
Solving <20hz gets big/expensive, fast...
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post #3 of 13 Old 01-20-2019, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Either will have a massive increase in mid-bass, the B&C is of higher build quality, but also more money.

The UM-18 is only like 88db/w/m, it's not a mid-bass monster, no car/ht subs are...

Chest kick is in the 50-300hz range. If you box model it you can see just how many UM-18's and watts it takes to match say 4 or 8 PA-460's tuned to 40hz...

Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.

Solving 30-300hz is cheap and small.
Solving <20hz gets big/expensive, fast...
I will try to see how a PA460 models in 9cuft tuned to 35hz. Does that sound good or should I go for 40. Thanks for your in put. I always watch your youtube uploads 😆.
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post #4 of 13 Old 01-21-2019, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmrider07 View Post
I will try to see how a PA460 models in 9cuft tuned to 35hz. Does that sound good or should I go for 40. Thanks for your in put. I always watch your youtube uploads 😆.
If you're looking at the PA460 you should look at the V.B.S.S thread. Why do you need it the same size as the minimarty? Could you build 2 V.B.S.S and flank the minimarty for aesthetic purposes?
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post #5 of 13 Old 01-22-2019, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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If you're looking at the PA460 you should look at the V.B.S.S thread. Why do you need it the same size as the minimarty? Could you build 2 V.B.S.S and flank the minimarty for aesthetic purposes?
I could probably. I would honestly rather build just one. Minimarty using PA460(not really I would love to have 4 BC 21s but space won't let me do that until I rent this house and buy another). I have read the VBSS thread quite a bit. I know I would be missing out on mid bass using just one. But yes for aesthitic purposes. I guess I'm weird.
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post #6 of 13 Old 04-15-2019, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Questions/ options.
1. BC 18DS115-4 in 9cuft 18hz x2
2. BC 18SW115-4 in 9cuft 18hz x2
3. BC 18TBW 9cuft 40hz + UM18 9cuft 18hz

When modelling the DS AND SW. The SW is about +1db from 23hz-ish to about 90hz. Maybe I am doing something wrong. Sound quality and mid bass what I am looking for. I know 9cuft isn't optimal however the lady doesn't want different size subs because of this being in our living room. And I already have an Um18 in mini marty. Also going to upgrade to a NX6000d and use the crown to power my towers.
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post #7 of 13 Old 04-17-2019, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Just ordered an 18DS115-4 from PE and Nx6000d on Amazon. Going to take the Um18 out and see how the BC competes in the minimarty by ear since I don't have a proper Mic for REW. If i like it will end up buying another, build minimarty and selling UM18 AND PC12 soon. If I'm not pleased I'll keep um18 and build something around 40hz with the B&C.
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post #8 of 13 Old 04-17-2019, 11:47 AM
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Curious, but how are you High/Low passing the Mini Marty?



I assume the AVR is taking care of the low pass, but what are you doing for excursion control below the 18Hz tuning of the MM?


Also, where is your low pass for the MM set in the Denon? I modeled up the MM with both the UM18 and the 18DS115, and considering the sensitivity of the 18DS, one might think that you'd have quite a bit more output, but between 21-55Hz, you actually lose output based on modeling with the same power input.


If your AVR is set to cross the sub at 80 or 100Hz, you will see some gains up top in the 100-120Hz region, and maybe this is what you are missing.


If you aren't implementing a high pass I would definitely recommend it since movies are getting more and more <20Hz content and you risk blowing it up. Sure, a lot are still rolling off at around 20Hz, but all it takes is a Blade Runner or Tron at high volume and bad noises will happen...


I am interested to know what you think of the B&C though!
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post #9 of 13 Old 04-17-2019, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewp29 View Post
Curious, but how are you High/Low passing the Mini Marty?



I assume the AVR is taking care of the low pass, but what are you doing for excursion control below the 18Hz tuning of the MM?


Also, where is your low pass for the MM set in the Denon? I modeled up the MM with both the UM18 and the 18DS115, and considering the sensitivity of the 18DS, one might think that you'd have quite a bit more output, but between 21-55Hz, you actually lose output based on modeling with the same power input.


If your AVR is set to cross the sub at 80 or 100Hz, you will see some gains up top in the 100-120Hz region, and maybe this is what you are missing.


If you aren't implementing a high pass I would definitely recommend it since movies are getting more and more <20Hz content and you risk blowing it up. Sure, a lot are still rolling off at around 20Hz, but all it takes is a Blade Runner or Tron at high volume and bad noises will happen...


I am interested to know what you think of the B&C though!
Since building the minimarty I have just been cautious with the "gain" on the crown and avr volume. I did use the hpf as low as it could go for watching TIH and Oblivion which was 30hz but that was no garbage. Ive since switched to the Onkyo 820. It set lpf at 100hz which I changed to 120. That is also the reason ive ordered the NX6000D so I could implement a hpf. The 6k will be delivered on Friday. I will set a hpf at 16-17hz. The BC will be here sometime next week. But I wont get to play with it until next Friday. Thank you for modelling that.
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post #10 of 13 Old 04-19-2019, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmrider07 View Post
Since building the minimarty I have just been cautious with the "gain" on the crown and avr volume. I did use the hpf as low as it could go for watching TIH and Oblivion which was 30hz but that was no garbage. Ive since switched to the Onkyo 820. It set lpf at 100hz which I changed to 120. That is also the reason ive ordered the NX6000D so I could implement a hpf. The 6k will be delivered on Friday. I will set a hpf at 16-17hz. The BC will be here sometime next week. But I wont get to play with it until next Friday. Thank you for modelling that.

Nice, glad to know you understand the risks. I'd think the Bass Cannons on TIH would have probably shredded things pretty easily. Mainly from the sustained LFE being SOOOOOOO hot in the output. I run my Cinema F20 (Dayton RSS390HF) without a high pass, but it has a sealed back chamber and I've pushed it pretty hard without an issue mechanically. I figure if I blow up the RSS I can buy another, and they aren't insanely expensive. If PE ever discontinues them I'll probably ease off the throttle a bit, but that won't be an issue in a few weeks when I get the other sub built and implement a high pass on the F20 with the MiniDSP HD. I'd do it with the HD now, but figure what's the point? I've been running the F20 for 2+ years like it is.



The real problem is the distortion below the low knee of 20Hz. It has pretty good output to around 17Hz without audible distortion, but below that you can tell the driver doesn't really like to play clean. I know I am losing some output asking the F20 to muck about with the frequencies it is not designed to play, so the HD should benefit that as well.


Looking forward to your impressions! It's Friday!
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post #11 of 13 Old 04-20-2019, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice, glad to know you understand the risks. I'd think the Bass Cannons on TIH would have probably shredded things pretty easily. Mainly from the sustained LFE being SOOOOOOO hot in the output. I run my Cinema F20 (Dayton RSS390HF) without a high pass, but it has a sealed back chamber and I've pushed it pretty hard without an issue mechanically. I figure if I blow up the RSS I can buy another, and they aren't insanely expensive. If PE ever discontinues them I'll probably ease off the throttle a bit, but that won't be an issue in a few weeks when I get the other sub built and implement a high pass on the F20 with the MiniDSP HD. I'd do it with the HD now, but figure what's the point? I've been running the F20 for 2+ years like it is.



The real problem is the distortion below the low knee of 20Hz. It has pretty good output to around 17Hz without audible distortion, but below that you can tell the driver doesn't really like to play clean. I know I am losing some output asking the F20 to muck about with the frequencies it is not designed to play, so the HD should benefit that as well.


Looking forward to your impressions! It's Friday!
My goodness how is that mid bass using the F20? Can't wait to hear your thoughts on having another join the party. I fully understand the distortion, SVS hasnt been used sitting for month since I've painted house. I said I wasn't going to use it because I was going to sell it soon as I build my second mini and bass just came out cleaner and ive tried using it again always keeping gain at 12 o clock but anything under maybe 25hz just wasnt up to par with an 18 using decent power. The PC12 is no slouch and I'm not bashing SVS I think they're a great company with excellent customer service and good products. The PC12 has been my favorite for the past 8ish years ive had it. However, when comparing a 12 with decent power to a 18 with decent power theres a big difference.

For sure the bass cannon scene and also the part where he punches abomination in the street hits 6hz or something and I was like nope not putting my self through that seeing as my lady is the one that surprised me with the UM18 2 years ago because she knew I was going to end up buying it soon. I'm sure you and some other members here understand how much trouble I would have been in. I build the mini marty second week of Dec so it hasnt been long but I knew of the dangers of not using a hpf with ported sub but good looking out. I honestly appreciate it. I'm trying to be more active here since I've been ghosting avsforum for many years but just recently made my first post 😆.
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post #12 of 13 Old 04-20-2019, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright first thing first. Got my NX6000D in today so upon arrival I figured I'd go ahead and hook the XLS1502 to my towers. Listening to some 2ch music. I listen to everything besides country. But beyond that I feel like vocals and instruments had more clarity. I guess you could describe it as being able to hear every instrument separately and clear. Then I went on and changed my wiring on the neutrik since I was using it bridged with the crown, got it hooked up did the hpf under 20hz work around, got a decent gain setup and set limiter to 1820. Still need some fine tuning once I purchase a UMIK but one thing I know for sure is the 6000 packs more power than the 1502 bridged maybe its more headroom. I'm feeling a little more impact and only seeing -6 on the tree.

I'm more excited to see how the BC holds its own next weekend. I don't mind sacrificing a little ulf for a little more mid bass and if it holds up to my expectations there will be 2 minis so everything should work out just how I want or better.

I will keep everyone updated, there isnt a lot of information out about the 18DS I'll give my honest opinion. If anyone knows me or gets to know me knows I'm not one to sugarcoat s*** I'm going to tell it like it is.
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post #13 of 13 Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.
I have yet to measure any music that doesn't have 20hz content and most dub step/electronic that doesn't have 15hz. What are you measuring? Female vocals?
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