Mid-bass can you come to me. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 36 Old 01-20-2019, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Help!!Mid-bass can you come to me.

Currently my set up consist of

Fronts: Def tech 8020
Center: Cs8040hd
Ceiling: Franklin IB65CA (not in use future atmos upgrade)
Surr: Acoustic Research PL900SAT
Sub: SVS Pc12-NSD (OLDER WITH BASH AMP)
UM-18 Mini Marty powered by Crown XLS 1502 BRIDGED.
Avr: DENON AVR-590

The um18 was in a sealed enclosure around 7cu.ft for about 2 years but it seemed I was still missing some umph I guess you could say roughly under 30hz. So I built a mini-marty in November and I have to say I am very pleased with it.

Now I can actually feel my couch vibrate!!! John Wick Club Shoot out sceen is really nice.

But something is missing. I would like more MID-BASS. I want to feel more punch in my heart and soul lol. With what I am looling for I probably wont get a whole lot more but I'm positive it can be an upgrade. I can only run 2 subwoofers for now.

This will involved getting rid of the SVS SUB and doing another DIY. The only problem is I am strange and so is the S.O. Enclosure needs to be same as MiniMarty port length can be changed. Looking at the PA460 and the BC 18DS115.

What are your thoughts/ideas?

Future plans within next couple months
Onkyo Tx-RZ820 or Denon equivalent. Fiancee really likes the price of the Onkyo. I want something that has preouts.

Thanks

P.s. I need to get a UMIK and do some testing

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post #2 of 36 Old 01-20-2019, 05:11 PM
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Either will have a massive increase in mid-bass, the B&C is of higher build quality, but also more money.

The UM-18 is only like 88db/w/m, it's not a mid-bass monster, no car/ht subs are...

Chest kick is in the 50-300hz range. If you box model it you can see just how many UM-18's and watts it takes to match say 4 or 8 PA-460's tuned to 40hz...

Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.

Solving 30-300hz is cheap and small.
Solving <20hz gets big/expensive, fast...
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post #3 of 36 Old 01-20-2019, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Either will have a massive increase in mid-bass, the B&C is of higher build quality, but also more money.

The UM-18 is only like 88db/w/m, it's not a mid-bass monster, no car/ht subs are...

Chest kick is in the 50-300hz range. If you box model it you can see just how many UM-18's and watts it takes to match say 4 or 8 PA-460's tuned to 40hz...

Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.

Solving 30-300hz is cheap and small.
Solving <20hz gets big/expensive, fast...
I will try to see how a PA460 models in 9cuft tuned to 35hz. Does that sound good or should I go for 40. Thanks for your in put. I always watch your youtube uploads 😆.
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post #4 of 36 Old 01-21-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dsmrider07 View Post
I will try to see how a PA460 models in 9cuft tuned to 35hz. Does that sound good or should I go for 40. Thanks for your in put. I always watch your youtube uploads 😆.
If you're looking at the PA460 you should look at the V.B.S.S thread. Why do you need it the same size as the minimarty? Could you build 2 V.B.S.S and flank the minimarty for aesthetic purposes?
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post #5 of 36 Old 01-22-2019, 04:53 AM - Thread Starter
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If you're looking at the PA460 you should look at the V.B.S.S thread. Why do you need it the same size as the minimarty? Could you build 2 V.B.S.S and flank the minimarty for aesthetic purposes?
I could probably. I would honestly rather build just one. Minimarty using PA460(not really I would love to have 4 BC 21s but space won't let me do that until I rent this house and buy another). I have read the VBSS thread quite a bit. I know I would be missing out on mid bass using just one. But yes for aesthitic purposes. I guess I'm weird.
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post #6 of 36 Old 04-15-2019, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Questions/ options.
1. BC 18DS115-4 in 9cuft 18hz x2
2. BC 18SW115-4 in 9cuft 18hz x2
3. BC 18TBW 9cuft 40hz + UM18 9cuft 18hz

When modelling the DS AND SW. The SW is about +1db from 23hz-ish to about 90hz. Maybe I am doing something wrong. Sound quality and mid bass what I am looking for. I know 9cuft isn't optimal however the lady doesn't want different size subs because of this being in our living room. And I already have an Um18 in mini marty. Also going to upgrade to a NX6000d and use the crown to power my towers.
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post #7 of 36 Old 04-17-2019, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Just ordered an 18DS115-4 from PE and Nx6000d on Amazon. Going to take the Um18 out and see how the BC competes in the minimarty by ear since I don't have a proper Mic for REW. If i like it will end up buying another, build minimarty and selling UM18 AND PC12 soon. If I'm not pleased I'll keep um18 and build something around 40hz with the B&C.
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post #8 of 36 Old 04-17-2019, 11:47 AM
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Curious, but how are you High/Low passing the Mini Marty?



I assume the AVR is taking care of the low pass, but what are you doing for excursion control below the 18Hz tuning of the MM?


Also, where is your low pass for the MM set in the Denon? I modeled up the MM with both the UM18 and the 18DS115, and considering the sensitivity of the 18DS, one might think that you'd have quite a bit more output, but between 21-55Hz, you actually lose output based on modeling with the same power input.


If your AVR is set to cross the sub at 80 or 100Hz, you will see some gains up top in the 100-120Hz region, and maybe this is what you are missing.


If you aren't implementing a high pass I would definitely recommend it since movies are getting more and more <20Hz content and you risk blowing it up. Sure, a lot are still rolling off at around 20Hz, but all it takes is a Blade Runner or Tron at high volume and bad noises will happen...


I am interested to know what you think of the B&C though!
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post #9 of 36 Old 04-17-2019, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by drewp29 View Post
Curious, but how are you High/Low passing the Mini Marty?



I assume the AVR is taking care of the low pass, but what are you doing for excursion control below the 18Hz tuning of the MM?


Also, where is your low pass for the MM set in the Denon? I modeled up the MM with both the UM18 and the 18DS115, and considering the sensitivity of the 18DS, one might think that you'd have quite a bit more output, but between 21-55Hz, you actually lose output based on modeling with the same power input.


If your AVR is set to cross the sub at 80 or 100Hz, you will see some gains up top in the 100-120Hz region, and maybe this is what you are missing.


If you aren't implementing a high pass I would definitely recommend it since movies are getting more and more <20Hz content and you risk blowing it up. Sure, a lot are still rolling off at around 20Hz, but all it takes is a Blade Runner or Tron at high volume and bad noises will happen...


I am interested to know what you think of the B&C though!
Since building the minimarty I have just been cautious with the "gain" on the crown and avr volume. I did use the hpf as low as it could go for watching TIH and Oblivion which was 30hz but that was no garbage. Ive since switched to the Onkyo 820. It set lpf at 100hz which I changed to 120. That is also the reason ive ordered the NX6000D so I could implement a hpf. The 6k will be delivered on Friday. I will set a hpf at 16-17hz. The BC will be here sometime next week. But I wont get to play with it until next Friday. Thank you for modelling that.
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post #10 of 36 Old 04-19-2019, 02:12 PM
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Since building the minimarty I have just been cautious with the "gain" on the crown and avr volume. I did use the hpf as low as it could go for watching TIH and Oblivion which was 30hz but that was no garbage. Ive since switched to the Onkyo 820. It set lpf at 100hz which I changed to 120. That is also the reason ive ordered the NX6000D so I could implement a hpf. The 6k will be delivered on Friday. I will set a hpf at 16-17hz. The BC will be here sometime next week. But I wont get to play with it until next Friday. Thank you for modelling that.

Nice, glad to know you understand the risks. I'd think the Bass Cannons on TIH would have probably shredded things pretty easily. Mainly from the sustained LFE being SOOOOOOO hot in the output. I run my Cinema F20 (Dayton RSS390HF) without a high pass, but it has a sealed back chamber and I've pushed it pretty hard without an issue mechanically. I figure if I blow up the RSS I can buy another, and they aren't insanely expensive. If PE ever discontinues them I'll probably ease off the throttle a bit, but that won't be an issue in a few weeks when I get the other sub built and implement a high pass on the F20 with the MiniDSP HD. I'd do it with the HD now, but figure what's the point? I've been running the F20 for 2+ years like it is.



The real problem is the distortion below the low knee of 20Hz. It has pretty good output to around 17Hz without audible distortion, but below that you can tell the driver doesn't really like to play clean. I know I am losing some output asking the F20 to muck about with the frequencies it is not designed to play, so the HD should benefit that as well.


Looking forward to your impressions! It's Friday!
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post #11 of 36 Old 04-20-2019, 12:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Nice, glad to know you understand the risks. I'd think the Bass Cannons on TIH would have probably shredded things pretty easily. Mainly from the sustained LFE being SOOOOOOO hot in the output. I run my Cinema F20 (Dayton RSS390HF) without a high pass, but it has a sealed back chamber and I've pushed it pretty hard without an issue mechanically. I figure if I blow up the RSS I can buy another, and they aren't insanely expensive. If PE ever discontinues them I'll probably ease off the throttle a bit, but that won't be an issue in a few weeks when I get the other sub built and implement a high pass on the F20 with the MiniDSP HD. I'd do it with the HD now, but figure what's the point? I've been running the F20 for 2+ years like it is.



The real problem is the distortion below the low knee of 20Hz. It has pretty good output to around 17Hz without audible distortion, but below that you can tell the driver doesn't really like to play clean. I know I am losing some output asking the F20 to muck about with the frequencies it is not designed to play, so the HD should benefit that as well.


Looking forward to your impressions! It's Friday!
My goodness how is that mid bass using the F20? Can't wait to hear your thoughts on having another join the party. I fully understand the distortion, SVS hasnt been used sitting for month since I've painted house. I said I wasn't going to use it because I was going to sell it soon as I build my second mini and bass just came out cleaner and ive tried using it again always keeping gain at 12 o clock but anything under maybe 25hz just wasnt up to par with an 18 using decent power. The PC12 is no slouch and I'm not bashing SVS I think they're a great company with excellent customer service and good products. The PC12 has been my favorite for the past 8ish years ive had it. However, when comparing a 12 with decent power to a 18 with decent power theres a big difference.

For sure the bass cannon scene and also the part where he punches abomination in the street hits 6hz or something and I was like nope not putting my self through that seeing as my lady is the one that surprised me with the UM18 2 years ago because she knew I was going to end up buying it soon. I'm sure you and some other members here understand how much trouble I would have been in. I build the mini marty second week of Dec so it hasnt been long but I knew of the dangers of not using a hpf with ported sub but good looking out. I honestly appreciate it. I'm trying to be more active here since I've been ghosting avsforum for many years but just recently made my first post 😆.
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post #12 of 36 Old 04-20-2019, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Alright first thing first. Got my NX6000D in today so upon arrival I figured I'd go ahead and hook the XLS1502 to my towers. Listening to some 2ch music. I listen to everything besides country. But beyond that I feel like vocals and instruments had more clarity. I guess you could describe it as being able to hear every instrument separately and clear. Then I went on and changed my wiring on the neutrik since I was using it bridged with the crown, got it hooked up did the hpf under 20hz work around, got a decent gain setup and set limiter to 1820. Still need some fine tuning once I purchase a UMIK but one thing I know for sure is the 6000 packs more power than the 1502 bridged maybe its more headroom. I'm feeling a little more impact and only seeing -6 on the tree.

I'm more excited to see how the BC holds its own next weekend. I don't mind sacrificing a little ulf for a little more mid bass and if it holds up to my expectations there will be 2 minis so everything should work out just how I want or better.

I will keep everyone updated, there isnt a lot of information out about the 18DS I'll give my honest opinion. If anyone knows me or gets to know me knows I'm not one to sugarcoat s*** I'm going to tell it like it is.
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Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.
I have yet to measure any music that doesn't have 20hz content and most dub step/electronic that doesn't have 15hz. What are you measuring? Female vocals?
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post #14 of 36 Old 04-22-2019, 10:50 AM
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I have yet to measure any music that doesn't have 20hz content and most dub step/electronic that doesn't have 15hz. What are you measuring? Female vocals?
Ha! That's funny. I attended the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest every year for like 15 years (2000-2015 I think), and it was always so disappointing going into rooms where the sound system could obviously play some extreme music, and they would play freaking Diana Krall, Norah Jones, or some other snooze fest music that did nothing for showcasing the type of music I or anyone I know listen to. Or classical, at 60dB... Every once in awhile you'd go into a room where they'd play some classic rock, which is fine, but that was usually limited to a couple different bands, and after a few songs they'd put on some boring female vocalist again.

Every year we filled out the comment card, telling them to play more music that normal human beings listened to and stop catering to the stuffed-shirt old men that liked to believe that said female vocalists were singing about them in their single armchair, dark, ambience filled listening rooms. Very few rooms actually had subwoofers, and in many of the conversations we had with the presenters they acted like a bookshelf speaker with a 4" woofer that played cleanly down to 60Hz at no more than 70dB was instantly worth $5k a pair, or more. And almost every single presenter (minus Hsu, and a few others, kudos to them) believed in every ounce of snake oil the industry produced. There were extreme examples of this, from the little metal cups 'strategically' placed along the walls, to the magical black boxes in which they wouldn't reveal the contents. And if questioned or not agreed with, they would get angry and tell you to leave the room, lol.

Sure, if all you listen to is 'easy listening', most music drops off hard below 40Hz. Even most classic rock doesn't get down to the lowest notes on a 5 string bass, but vinyl limitations curbed a lot of those lows. Since digital music has become the mainstream norm, I am listening to more and more music with notes down to the mid 20s or lower, and that doesn't even include the jungle/drum and bass I like to crank from time to time.


I'm definitely not saying BTH listens to 'easy listening' music, because I know better... I did find your comment amusing!
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Ha! That's funny. I attended the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest every year for like 15 years (2000-2015 I think), and it was always so disappointing going into rooms where the sound system could obviously play some extreme music, and they would play freaking Diana Krall, Norah Jones, or some other snooze fest music that did nothing for showcasing the type of music I or anyone I know listen to. Or classical, at 60dB... Every once in awhile you'd go into a room where they'd play some classic rock, which is fine, but that was usually limited to a couple different bands, and after a few songs they'd put on some boring female vocalist again.

Every year we filled out the comment card, telling them to play more music that normal human beings listened to and stop catering to the stuffed-shirt old men that liked to believe that said female vocalists were singing about them in their single armchair, dark, ambience filled listening rooms. Very few rooms actually had subwoofers, and in many of the conversations we had with the presenters they acted like a bookshelf speaker with a 4" woofer that played cleanly down to 60Hz at no more than 70dB was instantly worth $5k a pair, or more. And almost every single presenter (minus Hsu, and a few others, kudos to them) believed in every ounce of snake oil the industry produced. There were extreme examples of this, from the little metal cups 'strategically' placed along the walls, to the magical black boxes in which they wouldn't reveal the contents. And if questioned or not agreed with, they would get angry and tell you to leave the room, lol.

Sure, if all you listen to is 'easy listening', most music drops off hard below 40Hz. Even most classic rock doesn't get down to the lowest notes on a 5 string bass, but vinyl limitations curbed a lot of those lows. Since digital music has become the mainstream norm, I am listening to more and more music with notes down to the mid 20s or lower, and that doesn't even include the jungle/drum and bass I like to crank from time to time.


I'm definitely not saying BTH listens to 'easy listening' music, because I know better... I did find your comment amusing!
Usually I don't respond to disrespectful answers. There are ways to disagree with someone without doing it this way.

That said, there is a difference between rolled off and non-existent. While I agree that most music recorded in the 70's was really rolled off in the low end but that didn't mean there was a brick wall fall off at 25hz with nothing registering on a measurement mic. I use REW and it is always showing content at 20hz for anything with a bass guitar and drums. Is it 10db lower in some types of music? Sure but that's what EQ is for. Even a 40hz bass guitar note centered at 40hz has a 20hz sub harmonic associated with it

So whip out the measurement mic in room and play a 70's zeppelin song and let me know if there is any content at 20hz. My 4 18's are pumping pretty hard with it. Now if it's 10db lower than 30hz, that doesn't mean there is no content. I just checked with 60's music and there is 20hz content. I'm sure lesser systems can't play much 20hz content but that's a different issue. If your system rolls off below 30hz, that's not the recording.
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Usually I don't respond to disrespectful answers. There are ways to disagree with someone without doing it this way.

That said, there is a difference between rolled off and non-existent. While I agree that most music recorded in the 70's was really rolled off in the low end but that didn't mean there was a brick wall fall off at 25hz with nothing registering on a measurement mic. I use REW and it is always showing content at 20hz for anything with a bass guitar and drums. Is it 10db lower in some types of music? Sure but that's what EQ is for. Even a 40hz bass guitar note centered at 40hz has a 20hz sub harmonic associated with it

So whip out the measurement mic in room and play a 70's zeppelin song and let me know if there is any content at 20hz. My 4 18's are pumping pretty hard with it. Now if it's 10db lower than 30hz, that doesn't mean there is no content. I just checked with 60's music and there is 20hz content. I'm sure lesser systems can't play much 20hz content but that's a different issue. If your system rolls off below 30hz, that's not the recording.

I'm not sure where you found any disrespect in my post - if it came off that way it definitely wasn't intended. I was simply telling a story loosely associated with your comment to BTH regarding listening to female vocals. I found it amusing because there is a certain sector of music listeners that truly believe that music doesn't have any content below 30Hz. I am in agreement with you, that there is content, even if at lower levels, and even more so with digital music these days. I have had conversations with hundreds of people that feel a system that rolls off hard at 40-50Hz is entirely adequate for music reproduction, and I do not believe this is true. Plus, I have an extensive Electronica collection that gets down!



Again, I didn't mean any disrespect, nor was the story regarding you or likely anyone you actually know personally.
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I'm not sure where you found any disrespect in my post - if it came off that way it definitely wasn't intended. I was simply telling a story loosely associated with your comment to BTH regarding listening to female vocals. I found it amusing because there is a certain sector of music listeners that truly believe that music doesn't have any content below 30Hz. I am in agreement with you, that there is content, even if at lower levels, and even more so with digital music these days. I have had conversations with hundreds of people that feel a system that rolls off hard at 40-50Hz is entirely adequate for music reproduction, and I do not believe this is true. Plus, I have an extensive Electronica collection that gets down!



Again, I didn't mean any disrespect, nor was the story regarding you or likely anyone you actually know personally.
Starting off your response with ,"Ha that's funny!" set the stage for what I saw as disrespectful. Lets just leave it there and agree that we are all here to share opinions. It's all good.

As for music, all fundamentals under 100hz have sub-harmonic content at 20hz. The male voice has a fundamental average between 85 and 165hz and even that has a sub-harmonic at 20hz. Speak into a microphone with REW and watch the 20hz content. The fundamental of a 40hz bass guitar note has tremendous 20hz content as does a bass drum with a center frequency of 30hz. If your subs are flat to 20hz it will be audible and certainly has tactile feel to it. If we are only going to talk about fundamental center frequency, then yes, there is little content. Music, which includes sub-harmonics of fundamentals, does have content lower in frequency.

It's simple enough to see with REW measurements and that is what my first-hand observations are talking about.

Now as far as dub step, rap, and some metal bands like Korn have 10z output from sub synth eq'ed bass drops and such measured with REW.(even if some don't think that's music).

I have 4 ported TC sounds LMS 18's and if I roll my high pass filter up to 25 or 30hz, there is an insane drop in bass output.

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Starting off your response with ,"Ha that's funny!" set the stage for what I saw as disrespectful. Lets just leave it there and agree that we are all here to share opinions. It's all good.
And yet, it WAS funny. Considering to whom you posed the question, that's fricken' hilarious! Asking the guy whose system makes all other systems look small if he's 'measuring female vocals' came off as a bit snarky to me, but since I don't take offense to harmless comments on the internet, I took it as a joke. And yes, it's still funny, no offense.

You still seem to think I was disagreeing with you regarding subharmonics and the frequency range of music. I am in no way, shape or form, disagreeing with what you stated. If anything, I wholeheartedly agree.
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post #19 of 36 Old 04-22-2019, 07:12 PM
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that didn't mean there was a brick wall fall off
I'm not really sure where Spin is going with all this...

Nobody said brickwall-anything, those are your words.

I was just making a condensed blanket generalization so that the post didn't run into a 500 page essay on sound.

Of course there will be SPL from DC to nyquist in every CD that has ever been made, but if it is at -96db or -144db that doesn't really "add" much.

The mp3 format often filters above 16khz to reduce file sizes, the data is lost forever, it can't be eq'ed back into existence. The same is true for low frequencies. That said: low frequencies contain little information so rolling them off doesn't really save on file-size (and so mp3 doesn't.)

Random wobble from 70's recordings are nothing but noise, coincidental at-best if found on the gold master. Same could be said of mic wind/noise. Maybe it was artistic and intentional, and maybe (likely) it wasn't... it is well-known the limitations of the media of that era.

A purist might say that a bass "house curve" isn't true to the source because it is boosting frequencies that shouldn't be boosted... if one is being true to the source that is!

Early rolloff is a lossy destruction of information, you can't EQ information that was lost, specifically... that had its dynamic range reduced. This is mathematically provable via information theory that dates back 100+ years. Nothing new here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_theory

Generally though -3db is universally considered the "start" of the rolloff point, which is a 50% reduction in power at the observed frequency (and logarithmically increasing beyond that point).

Let's just say, if ANY amplifier had the rolloff and FR shape of a music track, you likely wouldn't WANT to buy it.

When a person sees a collection of trees they either see a forest or just a collection of trees, both are valid but one could endlessly philosophize about it a thousand different ways to Sunday.
Music and movies are artistic in nature and subjective in value.

One person might find a -12db @ 15hz HPF highly offensive and another person might "love it to death" and vice-versa. Love is in the eye of the beholder.

Generally: playback equipment is much more scientifically rigorous (or can\should be).
For starters you want: the widest bandwidth / least rolloff, the least distortion, and a healthy amount of SPL.
Rolloff is the exact opposite of high-fidelity / high-quality, basically.
That said: all systems have rolloff and are massively flawed.
Often a compromise by budget and available space or WAF ratio.

I think you are preaching to the choir. (Most of us already know all this^, and have for decades...)

and yes I happen to prefer female singers, almost exclusively, generally-because: I like bobs and veganas. I don't particularly enjoy male serenadation. YMMV
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post #20 of 36 Old 04-22-2019, 08:00 PM
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I'm not really sure where Spin is going with all this...
The short version: EQ your system flat and find any music with drums and bass guitar and the 30hz output from your system will be within 6-8db of the 20hz signal presented to a mic on REW. It may not be the fundamental but it's certainly there from sub-harmonics.

You said:

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Infrasonics is cool... but 95% of movies and 99% of music is >20hz, most of it being >30hz in fact.
"Most of music" means >50% has no bass under 30hz? Run a mic on REW and play 10 songs. Let me know if 50% of them have no 20-29hz signal. It's a simple enough test.
Music isn't a test tone and a note from a musical instrument doesn't play at one frequency. The mic isn't picking up noise, it is following the instrument. Play a bass guitar alone or a bass drum. If it was noise it wouldn't follow the notes.

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post #21 of 36 Old 04-22-2019, 08:12 PM
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A purist might say that a bass "house curve" isn't true to the source because it is boosting frequencies that shouldn't be boosted... if one is being true to the source that is!
That would be true if the recording engineer din't filter out low bass so it plays louder on car stereos. When I hear drums and Bass guitar live it has 10x the bass as I hear on a stereo. They have to roll it off and apply compression to have the dynamic range needed to hear everything else. A recording is far from pure.
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Yes most movies and songs are neutered protectionism. Filtered at 20 or 30hz to keep weak systems safe. Which was part of my original point!

EQ can bring back the voltage output level at a frequency, but can't bring back the lost dynamics, clipping can also cause a lost of information and requires exhaustively-deep Audition de-clipping heart ache to attempt any resemblance of the original.

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play some extreme music, and they would play freaking Norah Jones
This Norah song happens to have more 16-20hz in it than 30-40hz in it.
Most systems just don't play it properly (can't handle it well.)

Black and White is even more intense and difficult to play (for most systems.)
If you apply a house curve and play it loud with a beefy enough amplifier, like say a FP14k, it will bottom out most subs.

If their system was crappy-enough one might not even know such bass was in there, without doing frequency analysis or knowing about it before-hand.

One can always find exceptions to the rule of thumb.

Doesn't make the music any less nap-worthy however. hehe!
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post #23 of 36 Old 04-22-2019, 10:21 PM - Thread Starter
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I haven't read all that's going on since I'm at work. But I have a question. If I lose too much low end with the BC would it be wise to EQ? And could someone maybe guide me somewhere to get started? Might order a Umik take some measurements.
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post #24 of 36 Old 04-23-2019, 09:02 PM
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I haven't read all that's going on since I'm at work. But I have a question. If I lose too much low end with the BC would it be wise to EQ? And could someone maybe guide me somewhere to get started? Might order a Umik take some measurements.
You can "try" to EQ it, but every 3db of boost (or inverse negative shelf cutting) will add an additional doubling of power at that region, which will also cause more heat and excursion. As-in 4x the heat and 1.4x the excursion...

You can only boost so-much before something bad happens, boosting beyond the native box-model response is always done at-risk of clipping. Clipping can cause an ADDITIONAL build up of heat in both the coils and the amplifier. Clipping is nothing BUT distortion and should always be avoided whenever possible (simply by monitoring levels and turning down the gain or the upstream master-volume level or LFE trim.)

You might want to get the CSL UMIK-1 because it is flat to 5hz, instead of 10 or 20hz factory-direct...

If you boost and EOT Intro comes along, you could be in trouble.

Just like you can use a ported or horned sub without a HPF, just not anywhere near the modeled Max-SPL.

The short answer is: "it depends"

But, there is no free lunch... it is ALWAYS at-risk.

Boosting via DEQ rather than PEQ is probably the smarter move.
Reserve PEQ for cutting and DEQ for boosting, and don't exceed 0dbFS by "too much".
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post #25 of 36 Old 04-24-2019, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Red face

Delivered 4/23. This driver looks very good BC's quality really shows. Ive always thought drivers with accordion surrounds looked strange. I cant wait to get her in the mini marty and hear her play on Friday. What's a good method to break in driver, 20hz for 30min? Snagged a couple pics.

P.s my phone camera makes magnet seem anorexic.
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post #26 of 36 Old 04-24-2019, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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You can "try" to EQ it, but every 3db of boost (or inverse negative shelf cutting) will add an additional doubling of power at that region, which will also cause more heat and excursion. As-in 4x the heat and 1.4x the excursion...

You can only boost so-much before something bad happens, boosting beyond the native box-model response is always done at-risk of clipping. Clipping can cause an ADDITIONAL build up of heat in both the coils and the amplifier. Clipping is nothing BUT distortion and should always be avoided whenever possible (simply by monitoring levels and turning down the gain or the upstream master-volume level or LFE trim.)

You might want to get the CSL UMIK-1 because it is flat to 5hz, instead of 10 or 20hz factory-direct...

If you boost and EOT Intro comes along, you could be in trouble.

Just like you can use a ported or horned sub without a HPF, just not anywhere near the modeled Max-SPL.

The short answer is: "it depends"

But, there is no free lunch... it is ALWAYS at-risk.

Boosting via DEQ rather than PEQ is probably the smarter move.
Reserve PEQ for cutting and DEQ for boosting, and don't exceed 0dbFS by "too much".
I don't think I am going to need too. But thank you for all the info. Like you said it all depends and id rather not have to worry and working driver/amp too hard when I can just add 1 more sub 😆. Wish I could be like you and have tons of power and surface area.
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post #27 of 36 Old 04-24-2019, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
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and yes I happen to prefer female singers, almost exclusively, generally-because: I like bobs and veganas. I don't particularly enjoy male serenadation. YMMV

I enjoy female singers as well, but they tend to be the likes of Lzzy Hale, Taylor Momsen, Lacey Sturm, Floor Jansen, etc., etc., etc.



dsm - the driver looks very nice! Bet you can't wait to get it hooked up and bumpin'!
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post #28 of 36 Old 04-26-2019, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Alright. Got off of work at 4 this morning and ran some free air sine waves with rew @25hz for about 15min with very little power just to move cone some then moved to 20hz and gave it a little more power for 5 min. I remember reading that BC has designed their woofer to move a lot of air around the voicecoil. Anyway got it installed into marty left all setting on the NX6000 and reciever the same.

I'm very well pleased so far. About to watch into the Spider verse
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post #29 of 36 Old 04-28-2019, 03:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Man. So far I've been very pleased with this driver. Low end is great midbass is even better and cleaner Was going to purchase another but my bluray player finally timed but this afternoon, I think I've had it for 10 years or more.

So now the search is going to be something that is 4k even though my UN75j6300 is only 1080.

@drewp29 I have a sealed 6-7cu.ft enclosure I built when first getting the UM18. Do you think they'd play well together, how would one EQ a sealed and ported together? I'll start off by hitting that search button.

Thanks
Ian
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post #30 of 36 Old 04-29-2019, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsmrider07 View Post
Man. So far I've been very pleased with this driver. Low end is great midbass is even better and cleaner Was going to purchase another but my bluray player finally timed but this afternoon, I think I've had it for 10 years or more.

So now the search is going to be something that is 4k even though my UN75j6300 is only 1080.

@drewp29 I have a sealed 6-7cu.ft enclosure I built when first getting the UM18. Do you think they'd play well together, how would one EQ a sealed and ported together? I'll start off by hitting that search button.

Thanks
Ian

You could definitely get them playing well together, but I feel it would take measurements and some REW work to get everything phase aligned. Off-hand, I do not know what capabilities the Berry DSP has for dealing with that, but most people who use them are fairly impressed with what they can accomplish, so I'm sure someone more versed in their capabilities can help you there!


Glad you like the B&C, from the specs it looks like a pretty amazing sub, but it is always good to hear success stories!
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