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post #31 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
Eric made some good points why you don't see them, but you also need to understand that ... just because you 'rarely' see them doesn't translate to anything to do with fidelity. Correlation does not equate causation.


Hypothetically:


The OEM sells products, the 15" is better in everyway than their 8" version but the man doesn't want a big 15" in their room and goes with the smaller version. Understandable, most people just want sound, if they were truly suspicious of sound quality than there would be no sound bars. Now with the 15" model they were set to make the bulk of their money, the 8" was their introductory maybe even loss leader. What is an OEM to do? Sell you on a bunch of hog wash to let you know that those 8" drivers are somehow better than the 15" version and up the price.


Size and cost sells, snake oil makes them more expensive. **** there's an $8,000 5-channel/150watt amp being praised on the front page!
You are absolutely correct. So glad you piped in after that was all settled.

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post #32 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 04:46 AM
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On the 12" and 15" coaxials are you planning on having a cabinet model with a depth that is AT screen friendly? @Erich H

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post #33 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 05:29 AM
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@Erich H Is the Fusion 8 coming back? Of all the pro cinema and diysound group speakers I've owned and do own, it's my favorite.
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post #34 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
@Erich H Is the Fusion 8 coming back? Of all the pro cinema and diysound group speakers I've owned and do own, it's my favorite.
From the update post:
If you've been waiting for me to put the Fusion-8 (Alchemy) speaker kits back on the site, I'll try to get them back up this week. There aren't any flat packs for those right now and I'm not sure if more will be made up.
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post #35 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 06:45 AM
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Can't wait to see whats coming...

I by no means have a "dedicated space" as its my family room, which is far from ideal....... So hoping for some fun stuff, mainly towers (have 2 small kids + dogs so need something with weight that wont tip). Been debating the 1099's (since 893's disappeared before I was in the marked to buy), 1299's and also the Titans (my wife likes my Polk SDA form factor at least for L/R).

Can't wait to see what Tower designs are coming out soon.... also surround sized stuff as my HT will be entirely redone (hopefully this year).

As a audiophile nut, I will admit quite a few of these DIY builds put my mouth on the floor (Titan, HTM12, Volt6, Quarks, Fusion's).... especially when I heard @mtg90 funky horn thing (that he cant sell/build others of)..... I wont say that they beat out some of the STUPID EXPENSIVE speakers I've heard... but for their price-point they are impossible to beat and bring a crap ton to the table for most people (high efficiency, ease of assembly, AVR friendly, etc).

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post #36 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
No I did not. ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.
Seriously?

Legacy has a "high fidelity" speaker with FOUR 15s in it.

JBL's m2 has 15s.

Then there's this thing too...
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

What are you talking about??? Yes, you have to cross over lower on bigger drivers, but that doesn't make them less articulate or less accurate.
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post #37 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
Seriously?

Legacy has a "high fidelity" speaker with FOUR 15s in it.

JBL's m2 has 15s.

Then there's this thing too...
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

What are you talking about??? Yes, you have to cross over lower on bigger drivers, but that doesn't make them less articulate or less accurate.
Well, and not to pile on, but I'm going to pile on a bit with a question...

For larger speaker drivers reproducing higher frequencies, what factor determines roll-off the most; weight or inductance?
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post #38 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
Seriously?

Legacy has a "high fidelity" speaker with FOUR 15s in it.

JBL's m2 has 15s.

Then there's this thing too...
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

What are you talking about??? Yes, you have to cross over lower on bigger drivers, but that doesn't make them less articulate or less accurate.
Let me start by saying it may be that if it's done right it would be perfectly fine. I've never heard a horn system that I thought sounded particularly good, and I've never heard a JBL speaker of any kind that I thought I got to get me some of that. Maybe that's personal preference, maybe I just didn't hear a good one so it tainted my view of them -- I'm willing to admit this is a real possibility.

I've read a lot about the wave guides and the work that went into them by Erich and others, and a lot of people really liking them -- I have high expectations and in fact I'm excited to try them out.

Maybe it's like Chinese food. I lived in Hong Kong for two years and am well acquainted with the food. I frequently have non-Asians tell me how much they liked so and so restaurant only to be hugely disappointed.

I have a high degree of confidance that this won't be like that. Peace.
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post #39 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.
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Sloppiness? Yeah, no. It's a physics thing. The larger driver weighs more and is harder to accelerate. When you look at the response curves of any larger woofer they quit puting out maybe in the 2K range or so. The forcing function, described as Fe^jwt, becomes too rapid for the woofer (mass) to respond. Smaller drivers -- teeters, mid-range drivers and even small woofers are going to be faster, more articulate, and integrate in the crossover region better. The right size magnet is the right sized magnet -- material aside.

Again, the larger driver, as you have noted, will play louder -- especially in the lower bass range and might me more dynamic for HT (so that compromise might be OK with the listener, but he is trading one thing for another), but there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

I will also use my setup for music and so I will bias the bass driver of the satellite (basically that's what it is) for smooth integration with the tweeter and more articulate mid-range as opposed to dynamic range, since the dual 8s will give me enough of that to begin with.

I could see others biasing their choice in another direction for their own personal reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
No I did not. ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).

I also get you on the, higher crossover and the 8" driver, but I'm up agaist that one too because I don't feel comfortable going any smaller and crossing over to the subs I've got our I would. Of course everything is a compromise unless there isn't much of a budget -- I got one so it is what it is. I'm making an HT system, not a sky's the limit audiophile system.

However I will note that if the subs are picking up the bass for the surround speakers and Atmos, do I need really NEED a 15" coxial speaker? Send like you'd be better off at that point to have a 3-way, but just thinking out loud (that never gets you in trouble... Right?)!
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Let me start by saying it may be that if it's done right it would be perfectly fine. I've never heard a horn system that I thought sounded particularly good, and I've never heard a JBL speaker of any kind that I thought I got to get me some of that. Maybe that's personal preference, maybe I just didn't hear a good one so it tainted my view of them -- I'm willing to admit this is a real possibility.

I've read a lot about the wave guides and the work that went into them by Erich and others, and a lot of people really liking them -- I have high expectations and in fact I'm excited to try them out.

Maybe it's like Chinese food. I lived in Hong Kong for two years and am well acquainted with the food. I frequently have non-Asians tell me how much they liked so and so restaurant only to be hugely disappointed.

I have a high degree of confidance that this won't be like that. Peace.
I'd really like to pick this apart, but it'd be a waste of time.

Ultimately, if you are excited about the DIYSG products coming out, it would be nice to hear about that rather than a partially informed lecture turned food analogy.

Personally, I'm interested in what low depth (behind screen) options are in the works. I've got some WAF things to consider, but love the idea of using a DIYSG product one day.
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post #40 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 12:33 PM
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the low depth is so attractive . .

except for budget, I'd ditch the klipsch F3 towers as rears, get another 88 special
take out my cc 88 and make them the rears
my F15's stay L/R and get a HTM12 as a CC

that's a bed layer of 7 all with the 15" horns . . .

my HTM6's are so scary good, I'm tempted to replace all 4 Volt6's in my SCATMOS array . . and settle just for ATMOS . . .

it never ends . .
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post #41 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 12:38 PM
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I'd really like to pick this apart, but it'd be a waste of time.

Ultimately, if you are excited about the DIYSG products coming out, it would be nice to hear about that rather than a partially informed lecture turned food analogy.

Personally, I'm interested in what low depth (behind screen) options are in the works. I've got some WAF things to consider, but love the idea of using a DIYSG product one day.
Thanks for not wasting our time. I think you'll enjoy it. I've been building speakers for more than 30 years off and on. In fact I wouldn't even consider buying a speaker and have built my own amp, preamp, and electronic crossovers. I am completely behind the diy effort even if I'm not particularly fond of a given approach. If you are anywhere near the DFW area of Texas feel free to drop in for some bbq. I also have an open shop policy if you want to cut wood. Cheers!
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post #42 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Thanks for not wasting our time. I think you'll enjoy it. I've been building speakers for more than 30 years off and on. In fact I wouldn't even consider buying a speaker and have built my own amp, preamp, and electronic crossovers. I am completely behind the diy effort even if I'm not particularly fond of a given approach. If you are anywhere near the DFW area of Texas feel free to drop in for some bbq. I also have an open shop policy if you want to cut wood. Cheers!
Yep, DFW-born and raised. I'm familiar with where some of the BBQ is at

Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting. Good extension down to 50-60 hz and the dispersion from the larger SEOS. Maybe one day I'll have enough time to do it unless someone beats me and I get to play copycat (hurt my feelings lol). I love to build them, but for me, time is a bit too finite for development that rivals what the guys at DIYSG put together.

Hell, if I change houses, that form factor might not even be relevant any more anyways. Then what was all that time spent for?
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post #43 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 01:20 PM
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Yep, DFW-born and raised. I'm familiar with where some of the BBQ is at

Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting. Good extension down to 50-60 hz and the dispersion from the larger SEOS. Maybe one day I'll have enough time to do it unless someone beats me and I get to play copycat (hurt my feelings lol). I love to build them, but for me, time is a bit too finite for development that rivals what the guys at DIYSG put together.

Hell, if I change houses, that form factor might not even be relevant any more anyways. Then what was all that time spent for?
Now see that's what I'm talking about -- I could get after that. You get ready to build I will help you cut some wood. Even though I can come off as a bit pissy, I'm really a pussycat! I'm a bit of a woodworking savant. Round square, pyramids -- you name it!

Time is a deal though, so if Erich has a flat pack I will pick it up -- his prices are beyond fair and the job is quicker.

Unfortunately, I needed custom marties so a flat pack want going to work. I'll post pictures of it soon. Just finished the volt 8 flat packs (rear surrounds) as well and they were very nicely done and I was impressed by the quality. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.
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post #44 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 01:30 PM
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^ the F4 is already like 28" wide . . .

this :Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting.

would be a very interesting looking monster . .

i think part of the discussion wrt 88 specials was that the driver size and separation due to the horn size in an MTM box created too many comb filtering (and other) issues, hence the over/under .
the popularity due to the "where it fits" and look of the MTM box isn't necessarily engineered to the acoustic benefit of the buyer/listener

FTR: as surrounds XT32 put the xo for my F4's @40

and the same as for FH's . .

but bring it ON
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post #45 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 01:55 PM
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It is nice to form an opinion without hearing then first.
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post #46 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
^ the F4 is already like 28" wide . . .

this :Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting.

would be a very interesting looking monster . .

i think part of the discussion wrt 88 specials was that the driver size and separation due to the horn size in an MTM box created too many comb filtering (and other) issues, hence the over/under .
the popularity due to the "where it fits" and look of the MTM box isn't necessarily engineered to the acoustic benefit of the buyer/listener

FTR: as surrounds XT32 put the xo for my F4's @40

and the same as for FH's . .

but bring it ON
With all the recent discussion of center channels, I understand why the horizontal thing is first on the mind. For this "outta left field" idea, it would be 3 matching MMTMM "pillars" (with shallow depth also) as close to the front wall as possible all mounted vertically. Kinda unique/odd versus the norm, but I really enjoy that look for the L & R and want a matching center for behind the screen. If it were the F4's, I'd arrange them the same, but really kinda regret not getting to experience the large WG experience.

Oh, and 40 hz for the F4 is cool! Have you used them as mains before? I wonder if just going to a bigger WG would make those an option for this concept....

What CD do they use?

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post #47 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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i recall a few threads of lcr F4's .

there were no regrets for look and performance but some were hampered by space considerations, that ole devil WAF thingy and beyond
and no reports of how well they EQ'd or any changes wrt added room treatments and so on

I did place them out there as LR as a curiosity for a listen but no testing or XT32 EQ
and the real L/R F4 is a vertical critter so that changes a lot wrt to dispersion to the mlp

i think the cd was a "something 150"

it's a Curt Campbell design.

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post #48 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 03:07 PM
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Ugh. Clicked this hoping to read 5 pages of awesome updates from diysg... nope, just a bunch of Bs’ing

In for more teasers on a shallowest 10” or 12” HT speaker.
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post #49 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 08:10 PM
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Ugh. Clicked this hoping to read 5 pages of awesome updates from diysg... nope, just a bunch of Bs’ing

In for more teasers on a shallowest 10” or 12” HT speaker.
Sooo, what ya been dooooooing
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post #50 of 286 Old 01-23-2019, 09:51 PM
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However I will note that if the subs are picking up the bass for the surround speakers and Atmos, do I need really NEED a 15" coxial speaker? Send like you'd be better off at that point to have a 3-way, but just thinking out loud (that never gets you in trouble... Right?)!
As others have said, the benefit (or detriment, depending on perspective) of a large concentric is that its pattern control extends lower in frequency.

I'll be curious to see what Erich and Eminence have come up with in terms of how high the woofer can play. In fact neither weight nor inductance are generally the limiting factor for how high a large driver can play. Cone breakup is!
JBL needs to cross the M2 at around 800Hz to stay away from woofer breakup. Tannoy's 15" Dual Concentrics were, to my ears, markedly inferior in the midrange to their 12" Dual Concentrics because they had to run the cone into its breakup range. I would not be surprised if the 12" model ends up being the sweet spot, for people who like high-directivity speakers.

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I've never heard a JBL speaker of any kind that I thought I got to get me some of that.
The M2 concept is basically sound quality of a Revel Ultima, output of a PA speaker.
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post #51 of 286 Old 01-24-2019, 12:10 AM
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15s are low fidelity? News to me. Cross below cone breakup and you will have excellent performance, just like when designing with any woofer. There are plenty of 15s that can run well over 1khz, though going beyond that results in directivity narrowing a bit too much. There are readily available HF drivers around that can run low enough in a 2-way config. I'm crossing my mains at 650hz with tops that have no issue extending to 20khz with 112dbspl sensitivity and distortion so low it's a challenge to measure. No dynamics are sacrificed. Distortion is far below audible. You get as accurate a reproduction of the source signal as possible, the very definition of fidelity.

All of the DIYSG I've seen has been designed well while being budget minded. Far better than any of the hifi audiophoolery that rums rampant. I'll continue recommending them for people who want great speakers. The value you get from some of the DIYSG stuff is just incredible. The fusion 15s I put together for a friend performed remarkably well, especially given the absurdly low price point.

So in the interest of science, I'll share some measurements of my "low fidelity" 15s. You're welcome to show me what "high fidelity" looks like :P

Distortion essentially below the noise floor / limits of my mic. <0.1% THD+N @ 3 meters @ 85dbspl. These are not expensive or exotic components


How about 2x 15s? Even less distortion with this rig as sensitivity is increased by 3db, though I can't measure how low with my current mic, much like above. Flat response with excellent and linear off axis.


I'd say not far the the target. The dips are room modes in the input/raw measurements before generating filters that were left uncorrected, as it would not be ideal to do so there. As you can see, not visible in the spatial average. 8th order LR xo @ 650hz linear phase.




So hey, share your measurements, we can compare fidelity. These 15s aren't going anywhere. As for 10s and 12s? Nothing lofi about them because of their size.
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post #52 of 286 Old 01-24-2019, 01:31 AM
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I bet eng really hates his non-hifi, dual 15" Titans.


but back on topic:


The only items on my radar right now are 12" coaxial, Tux's new 3-way and the Helix Ribbons.


I doubt I'll purchase the new 3-way (nothing against Tux) I'm just interested to see what direction he took as I want to eventually build a high end 3-way too and plus I think 3-ways look dope as hell.


The high end coaxial has me super intrigued because I wanted to have something to pair up with the Mag 12's for a while and I'm all sorts of excited to have a 12" coaxial with a 12" woofer.


And the Helix Ribbons, wanted to buy these for some time now to upgrade my computer speakers from Paul's Spark speakers. The Sparks are no joke though, I am so happy with those.
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post #53 of 286 Old 01-24-2019, 04:49 AM
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15s are low fidelity? News to me. Cross below cone breakup and you will have excellent performance, just like when designing with any woofer. There are plenty of 15s that can run well over 1khz, though going beyond that results in directivity narrowing a bit too much. There are readily available HF drivers around that can run low enough in a 2-way config. I'm crossing my mains at 650hz with tops that have no issue extending to 20khz with 112dbspl sensitivity and distortion so low it's a challenge to measure. No dynamics are sacrificed. Distortion is far below audible. You get as accurate a reproduction of the source signal as possible, the very definition of fidelity.

All of the DIYSG I've seen has been designed well while being budget minded. Far better than any of the hifi audiophoolery that rums rampant. I'll continue recommending them for people who want great speakers. The value you get from some of the DIYSG stuff is just incredible. The fusion 15s I put together for a friend performed remarkably well, especially given the absurdly low price point.

So in the interest of science, I'll share some measurements of my "low fidelity" 15s. You're welcome to show me what "high fidelity" looks like :P

Distortion essentially below the noise floor / limits of my mic. <0.1% THD+N @ 3 meters @ 85dbspl. These are not expensive or exotic components


How about 2x 15s? Even less distortion with this rig as sensitivity is increased by 3db, though I can't measure how low with my current mic, much like above. Flat response with excellent and linear off axis.


I'd say not far the the target. The dips are room modes in the input/raw measurements before generating filters that were left uncorrected, as it would not be ideal to do so there. As you can see, not visible in the spatial average. 8th order LR xo @ 650hz linear phase.




So hey, share your measurements, we can compare fidelity. These 15s aren't going anywhere. As for 10s and 12s? Nothing lofi about them because of their size.
I will certainly concede that there has been a lot of progress over the last 15-20 yrs (amount of time since I was hard at the audio thing), and what once was may not now be. I'd also agree whole heartily about cone breakup, and maybe that was what I was hearing back in the day was was just way too many instances of people pushing larger woofers to high and that may have also been because anciently the HF drivers weren't as capable as they are now so that was a necessity then. That was then this is now sort of thing. It isn't like I don't have a lot of diysg stuff on order, but more the car if I guess I wasn't a believer because I hadn't heard it and was basing that on many bad experiences in the past -- some on some every expensive speakers! If anyone in the DFW area gets a pair I will commit to go listen to them and I'll be prepared to eat all the nonsense I previously typed! Back to regular programming.
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It looks like I will be going out of country for an extended period of time for work. Apartments will be relatively small, and I won't be able to play particularly loud; so efficiency isn't a priority nor is really low bass.

I've been looking at the overnight sensations (MTM and TM), but I've noticed that little Ion-4 and Ion-4+? Anyone built either of those? Will the Ions be in stock any time soon (preferably w/tweeter)? It does anyone have an opinion on that?

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In the DIYSG Coaxials thread @Eric H said of the new 15" driver: "The frequency response is incredibly flat all the way up 4khz."

And @mtg90 said: "Typically you want to cross a 15" driver around 1000-1200hz if you want it to give you roughly a 90 degree radiation pattern (level down 6db at 45 degrees off axis)."
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post #56 of 286 Old 01-24-2019, 04:18 PM
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Is the new 15" for sale yet? I am going to empty my 4 cf sealed boxes so these 15s might work perfectly in them with a small port in the back.
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Is the new 15" for sale yet? I am going to empty my 4 cf sealed boxes so these 15s might work perfectly in them with a small port in the back.
Sounds like it will be a couple of months if they are still deciding on flat pack sizes.

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Sounds like it will be a couple of months if they are still deciding on flat pack sizes.

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He said he'll be listing the 15" woofer this week... does 'listing' not mean 'selling'?
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He said he'll be listing the 15" woofer this week... does 'listing' not mean 'selling'?
Oh I think that's referring to the "buy out woofer", not the new coaxials.

Edit: my apologies, that's the woofer you were talking about. Let us know how that works out - what drivers were you using before?
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post #60 of 286 Old 01-25-2019, 04:01 AM
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He said he'll be listing the 15" woofer this week... does 'listing' not mean 'selling'?
Could mean they got the prototypes in, he is checking them, making sure everything is OK, and that they meet expectations etc.

Selling means you can click on the website and order. I've not been able to order, or pay for anything that wasn't on the website, but that might be a recent phenomenon, since I'm pretty new, or that might just be the way it is. Regardless, if you can't click on it... It's likely not for sale yet.

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