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post #121 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Curt and I thought the 8" Cobalt MT and MTM's would do good and people would consider them as an alternative because there were many people asking for a high sensitivity dome tweeter speaker kit. MT, MTM, center channel, and a matching angled surround were done. 100 flat packs for each of those....excited to get them on the site.......I think only 10 kits total have been built in one year. Break even point: maybe 25 years at the current rate.
Yea that's a shame man, because its not like you can discount them either - they're already selling at wholesale! I'm sure they sound great too!

I know you get tons of recommendations and requests for different ideas, but when it comes down to it - when someone is going to pull the trigger on a set of speakers for home theater use (I feel most of your clientele are in the market for home theater application) - I feel they are going to go with the SEOS or EOS waveguide kits with the CD (and also the coaxials for surround) as they are the most efficient speakers, have the great directivity control, and still sound VERY smooth, not harsh at all - which would be the argument for dome tweeters. I think people's tendency is going to be to look for the biggest, highest sensitivity speaker they can afford/accommodate. At least that is what is always suggested by members here!

Let's face it, while the cobalts, helix, ions are GREAT, your waveguides and compression drivers have developed SUCH a great reputation, its hard to NOT go with them when shopping on your site!
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post #122 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by impreza276 View Post
The option is there to buy the kits with just the front baffle, and at no shipping cost. That is an awesome value!
Agreed. The baffles being included is huge. Especially being the recess of the waveguides would need a CNC to duplicate. The rest of the enclosure (flat pack) is no big deal for many of us as we can cut a box in a few minutes with a table saw.
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post #123 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Agreed. The baffles being included is huge. Especially being the recess of the waveguides would need a CNC to duplicate. The rest of the enclosure (flat pack) is no big deal for many of us as we can cut a box in a few minutes with a table saw.
True, though I'd say it depends.. If you love the DIY process it is not too hard to cut the pieces. For those of us that are more interested in getting the speakers up and running as quickly and conveniently as possible, the flat pack is a great shortcut. The precision is difficult to replicate with home tools. Not to mention that people who don't have access to cutting tools can join in on the DIY fun.

*Edit: You said "many of us", so yes, I agree with you!
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post #124 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by impreza276 View Post
The option is there to buy the kits with just the front baffle, and at no shipping cost. That is an awesome value!
Agreed, just pointing out of push comes to shove I can 1) do my own, and 2) I prefer 3/4 MDF for the baffles (which many already have).

It may be that that strategy allows Erich to carry something that otherwise might be a bit marginal.

Also, you could make a jig to make the rebate for the wave guide rather than CNC, but I realize not everyone will have that skill. What I have done in the past is to use 1/4 inch acoustic foam to make the driver to baffle transition which allows you to surface mount the drivers without countersink.
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post #125 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by impreza276 View Post
True, though I'd say it depends.. If you love the DIY process it is not too hard to cut the pieces. For those of us that are more interested in getting the speakers up and running as quickly and conveniently as possible, the flat pack is a great shortcut. The precision is difficult to replicate with home tools. Not to mention that people who don't have access to cutting tools can join in on the DIY fun.

*Edit: You said "many of us", so yes, I agree with you!
Well I can cut an enclosure minus the baffle in 5 minutes with a table saw so the get it up and run factor isn't missing. I probably spent 40 minutes tops cutting all 6 enclosures of my module towers. Table saws make it too easy and the cuts are extremely accurate.

But yes I do agree not everyone has tools so the flat pack definitely has a place. I was mainly talking the DIYers that like to build old school style which are abundant around here.
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post #126 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 11:10 AM
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For me, the hardest part is understanding how the different designs sound/compare to each other... they have different designers, and are therefore likely voiced differently, etc...

I don't listen at reference, and likely never will... I certainly don't need capability to go above that for how I watch and listen... That said, I want to pick something to build with the "highest fidelity", whatever that means, lol. Honestly I'm not interested in "value" choices... I want to spend more to get more so to speak... In fact, as you slide down the price scale, you get to a point where I feel like my time isn't worth the money... i.e. - build a speaker for $200 that sounds as good/better than a $500 speaker... well, I can afford the $500 speaker, so i'll save the time and sawdust... Now, build a 500/750/?? speaker that sounds as good or better than a $?? 2000 speaker, and my time is way more worth it...

which brings me to.. comparisons of the voicing/sound quality to known commercial (even pro audio) speakers that exist that folks may have heard of... If I knew that the 1099 sounds similar to and voiced similarly to the JTR XX, and the Cobalt MTM is voiced neutrally and is similar to a KEF XX or Paradigm Studio XX, then I know what to pick so to speak... takes a lot of the roulette aspect out of it..

All that said:

many thousand thanks to Erich and all the designers that put so much work into what's available to all of us that DON'T know how to design a speaker, but know enough to not try from scratch..

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post #127 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
For me, the hardest part is understanding how the different designs sound/compare to each other... they have different designers, and are therefore likely voiced differently, etc...

I don't listen at reference, and likely never will... I certainly don't need capability to go above that for how I watch and listen... That said, I want to pick something to build with the "highest fidelity", whatever that means, lol. Honestly I'm not interested in "value" choices... I want to spend more to get more so to speak... In fact, as you slide down the price scale, you get to a point where I feel like my time isn't worth the money... i.e. - build a speaker for $200 that sounds as good/better than a $500 speaker... well, I can afford the $500 speaker, so i'll save the time and sawdust... Now, build a 500/750/?? speaker that sounds as good or better than a $?? 2000 speaker, and my time is way more worth it...

which brings me to.. comparisons of the voicing/sound quality to known commercial (even pro audio) speakers that exist that folks may have heard of... If I knew that the 1099 sounds similar to and voiced similarly to the JTR XX, and the Cobalt MTM is voiced neutrally and is similar to a KEF XX or Paradigm Studio XX, then I know what to pick so to speak... takes a lot of the roulette aspect out of it..

All that said:

many thousand thanks to Erich and all the designers that put so much work into what's available to all of us that DON'T know how to design a speaker, but know enough to not try from scratch..
It does add up. For a 7.4 system you are looking at minimum 11 speakers plus subs which will quickly run into the several thousands. One reason DIY is so valuable - the performance you can get for a fraction of commercial price. You bring up a great point about where each design sits in relation to commercial products. It would be great to hear more comparisons from users. One great advantage of DIY is the design for performance unrestricted by commercial concerns. The retail market loves slim, high WAF designs whereas DIY can go all out with the big 15 inch drivers in huge boxes.
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post #128 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
For me, the hardest part is understanding how the different designs sound/compare to each other...
Agreed. Quantifying aspects of a speaker in order to determine how one sounds compared to others would be extremely helpful. I understand that can be rather difficult and I'm not even sure how you'd do that for things like detail resolution and imaging. Even if there were just descriptions comparing the different speakers without objective measurements or numbers would be helpful. Even just one of those polar graphs with points for each aspect of sound per speaker would help. Also, this is something I've been meaning to research so hit me with some links on this if anyone has any.

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If I knew that the 1099 sounds similar to and voiced similarly to the JTR XX, and the Cobalt MTM is voiced neutrally and is similar to a KEF XX or Paradigm Studio XX, then I know what to pick so to speak... takes a lot of the roulette aspect out of it..
Also agreed. Right now, all I know is I like my KEFs and find my dad's old school Klipsch towers to be meh.
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post #129 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by impreza276 View Post
It does add up. For a 7.4 system you are looking at minimum 11 speakers plus subs which will quickly run into the several thousands. One reason DIY is so valuable - the performance you can get for a fraction of commercial price. You bring up a great point about where each design sits in relation to commercial products. It would be great to hear more comparisons from users. One great advantage of DIY is the design for performance unrestricted by commercial concerns. The retail market loves slim, high WAF designs whereas DIY can go all out with the big 15 inch drivers in huge boxes.
good point about it adding up... I was making the assumption that many folks will spend a lot more on the front stage than the surround/atmos speakers... there are certainly folks that will find a way to build 11 Titans, but the reality is for atmos overhead and surround channels, a much less capable speaker could be employed without as much detriment to overall sq... but, that's where a Volt comes in handy as its an easy build with simple flat pack, etc... at the same time, some cheap boston, KEF Q150's, or others at Accessories4Less get attractive too...

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post #130 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 11:57 AM
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I feel similarly to jcr. If I consider the amount of time I spend building the boxes, testing and calibrating everything, that is the biggest "cost" to me if I pretend I'm paying myself a resonable wage. So if I'm choosing between parts, I'm going to go with the higher-end ones, especially since when the whole project is done, even if I'm 100% happy with everything, it will eliminate those upgraditis thoughts in the back of my mind like "I wonder how these would sound with the upgraded drivers?" and the like. Of course, this is within reason, there's definitely an amount of money that would deter me, but I consider all of these DIYSG components and kits resonably priced, even the higher-end neo ones. My choice of kit usually comes down to form factor more than anything else.
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post #131 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 12:53 PM
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totally agree. The bang for the buck is unreal. Between two setups in my house I have a total of 15 loudspeaker kits from diysoundgroup. I've also built every sub in my house (9 of them) although those were 100% diy by myself. Over two decades I've owned lots of really nice consumer stuff to pro cinema and nothing comes close to touching diy sound group kits for the price good luck matching the performance at double sometimes triple the price. From what I've owned The only thing I'd say matched them were my old QSC 2150s.

If I were doing a new HT now I'd probably go with 13-15 Fusion 8s.
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post #132 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 01:10 PM
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Some of the kits that had been around for 6-7 years just rarely got built any more. I think in all of 2018 there were 4-6 Fusion-10/12's shipped. The minimum order for me from Parts Express is sets of 10 which at that rate would sit here for a couple years.

But I could count up the remaining flat packs on the Fusion-10 and order another 10 kits from PE if needed.
I'd be in for 2 kits. I'd even be willing to buy prebuilt crossovers for them along with flatpacks just to make it worth your time.
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post #133 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 01:35 PM
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my $0.02...

Historically my personal holdup on an order is international shipping. I know there are ways around this, but true simplicity of check out and have my VISA billed would be fantastic. This is off topic of what designs do people want/what will they buy.

The on topic holdup, Size/fidelity. I cant fit anything too massive (by DIYSG standards) and the impression I get is the higher fidelity designs are larger larger ones, like the titan 615 or maximus 12.

I remember a while back someone was talking about working with a Be compression driver, maybe Tux. I think it would be really cool to see a smaller design, say 8" woofer, that had a Be upgrade option. Even better if it was a 3-way. Long story short I really want to try out a high sensitivity high end design for two channel use, I have and use subs but still prefer the idea of a 3-way.

Little longer story, I built a pair of statement II's a while back, I use them for 2 channel and home theater. I really like them but as above I want to try something new, I don,t want to take a hit in fidelity. I also remember reading a while back about a comparison between the 1099's and Statements, if I remember it was something like both were really good but also really good at different things. I want to try something that potentially is just better, hence the question of the Be compression driver.

I believe smaller horizontal center channels would be a selling point for many. I am thinking 6" drivers and total height and width less than 9" x 24"
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post #134 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
I'd be in for 2 kits. I'd even be willing to buy prebuilt crossovers for them along with flatpacks just to make it worth your time.
I have 3 of the original fusion 10 "pures" with the seos 15. Premade crossovers and function fine but aren't the prettiest. I'm looking to downsize and have 2 f8s already so a 3rd f8 or the center would make sense for me... (based on NJ, PM if you wanna discuss to avoid breaking rules)
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post #135 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 03:39 PM
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I have 3 of the original fusion 10 "pures" with the seos 15. Premade crossovers and function fine but aren't the prettiest. I'm looking to downsize and have 2 f8s already so a 3rd f8 or the center would make sense for me... (based on NJ, PM if you wanna discuss to avoid breaking rules)
If I am not mistaken, didn't the v1 have a 12" seos rather than a 15"?
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post #136 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 03:41 PM
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If I am not mistaken, didn't the v1 have a 12" seos rather than a 15"?
You're right... Don't wanna distract from the thread too much so will take it to PM
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post #137 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdogx View Post
@Erich H , I’ll commit to 4 HTM-6’s with flat packs if you can’t do another run. With the commitments above looks like at least 10 just in this thread?


I’m just finishing my 2 HTM-6’s for family room as rear surrounds , im in for 2 more as front heights.. seriously, I’ll place my order immediately
These boxes are done..


And I just finished with 1 xover, 2nd one tomorrow , so these should be hanging Sunday



A stated I’m also in for 4 HTM-8’s in the basement HT as side / rear surrounds.



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post #138 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 04:42 PM
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Erich,
Not trying to tell how to run your business, but from one business owner to another; I would never front all of the money (risk) to stock all of these kits. I would do some sort of an interest list (with non-refundable deposits of 50% or so). Once you get 30-50 commitments; put the speakers back up. Hopefully 90% are pre-sold so you keep 10% of your order for inventory.. IIRC you did something similar with the SEOS 24 back in the day. From reading this thread, the F-8 seem to be in high demand.
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post #139 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 05:24 PM
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Suggestion:

Prior to Atmos we used to put our surrounds high up on the wall using the slanted boxes. I did with my 4 surround volts. They did exceptional for 7.1. Now that I’m adding 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling, we want to bring our surrounds down to ear height or so which gives the LCR to surround plane and then the definitive separation to the Atmos ceiling. That being said, you asked what people want and for surrounds I’d say a shallow ported box like an HTM or a regular Fusion type box for lower wall mount or low stand mounting. I’d say the slanted boxes went out with 7.1. I admit however, I could be wrong and often am!


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Suggestion:

Prior to Atmos we used to put our surrounds high up on the wall using the slanted boxes. I did with my 4 surround volts. They did exceptional for 7.1. Now that I’m adding 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling, we want to bring our surrounds down to ear height or so which gives the LCR to surround plane and then the definitive separation to the Atmos ceiling. That being said, you asked what people want and for surrounds I’d say a shallow ported box like an HTM or a regular Fusion type box for lower wall mount or low stand mounting. I’d say the slanted boxes went out with 7.1. I admit however, I could be wrong and often am!


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Move the slanted to the ceiling, and use the standard small ported volts for surrounds.
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post #141 of 286 Old 01-31-2019, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
Suggestion:

Prior to Atmos we used to put our surrounds high up on the wall using the slanted boxes. I did with my 4 surround volts. They did exceptional for 7.1. Now that I’m adding 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling, we want to bring our surrounds down to ear height or so which gives the LCR to surround plane and then the definitive separation to the Atmos ceiling. That being said, you asked what people want and for surrounds I’d say a shallow ported box like an HTM or a regular Fusion type box for lower wall mount or low stand mounting. I’d say the slanted boxes went out with 7.1. I admit however, I could be wrong and often am!


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As a Jonny come lately, not to diy but to HT, I could never figure out what those angled front baffles were for...

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post #142 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 12:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
Suggestion:

Prior to Atmos we used to put our surrounds high up on the wall using the slanted boxes. I did with my 4 surround volts. They did exceptional for 7.1. Now that I’m adding 4 Atmos speakers in the ceiling, we want to bring our surrounds down to ear height or so which gives the LCR to surround plane and then the definitive separation to the Atmos ceiling. That being said, you asked what people want and for surrounds I’d say a shallow ported box like an HTM or a regular Fusion type box for lower wall mount or low stand mounting. I’d say the slanted boxes went out with 7.1. I admit however, I could be wrong and often am!


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The slanted boxes are perfect for front and rear heights, here’s sketch showing that

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post #143 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 10:54 AM
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The slanted boxes are perfect for front and rear heights, here’s sketch showing that

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Yeah, I suppose if you got a big enough room... The current Atmos installation guide just has flats pointing straight down. I think for me 5.2.4 (initial setup) they don't really apply. It so it seems.

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post #144 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Yeah, I suppose if you got a big enough room... The current Atmos installation guide just has flats pointing straight down. I think for me 5.2.4 (initial setup) they don't really apply. It so it seems.
As per a 'supplement' on Dolby's site, "Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines":
Mounting considerations
If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the
acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be
mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable
or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position.



...It's just the diagram that they show the speakers mounted flat on the ceiling. You are fine to 'aim' them towards the MLP.
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post #145 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 11:58 AM
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As per a 'supplement' on Dolby's site, "Dolby Atmos Home Theater Installation Guidelines":

Mounting considerations

If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the

acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be

mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable

or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position.







...It's just the diagram that they show the speakers mounted flat on the ceiling. You are fine to 'aim' them towards the MLP.
So, volt 6s, it would seem, could be mounted straight down.

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post #146 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 12:13 PM
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I’ve got volt-10’s in my basement 7.2.6 and they are aimed straight down.

In my family room 5.1.4 the volt-8 as TM are straight down, however the HTM-6’s as FH will be angled down


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post #147 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
So, volt 6s, it would seem, could be mounted straight down.

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Sure they can however like any speaker it'll sound best on axis. Atmos just added locations, just like any other speaker they will always give the best sound imaging and realism when properly aimed. If you can aim them by all means aim them.
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post #148 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
Sure they can however like any speaker it'll sound best on axis. Atmos just added locations, just like any other speaker they will always give the best sound imaging and realism when properly aimed. If you can aim them by all means aim them.
I also suppose that to be the case, but I would also guess that with the Atmos that it is a bit less critical. Especially considering the non ceiling mounted Atmos enabled speakers. You are shooting for ambient, and I would thing a bit more diffuse sound with those where as the LRC and rears would need more precise location. I've been wrong before.
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post #149 of 286 Old 02-01-2019, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
I also suppose that to be the case, but I would also guess that with the Atmos that it is a bit less critical. Especially considering the non ceiling mounted Atmos enabled speakers. You are shooting for ambient, and I would thing a bit more diffuse sound with those where as the LRC and rears would need more precise location. I've been wrong before.
objects need to be able to pan around the room to give a realistic image at any point in the room. Just like mains need proper spacing and to be toed in the image best and surrounds and rears need to be placed just right and aimed to seamlessly pan from main to surround to rear with no audible gaps or loss of imaging. The same goes for atmos locations.

As for use, the top speakers are used every bit as much as surrounds depending on the mix and always when upmixed as they are basically surround speakers just placed overhead. Here's a video I made of 5.1 upmixed. The first half is top 4 and subs only as I turned off the bed layer amp. As you'll notice there's an incredible amount of info sent to them.

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post #150 of 286 Old 02-02-2019, 10:32 AM
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Repeat customer here. I'm also a web developer (more towards the "programming" side than the "design" side, alas) with a couple decades of experience and would be willing to help in any way I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Basically we've come to a point where we're not exactly sure what people want. Unfortunately the more kits that get done as a shot in the dark and don't break even on cost, the more money is taken away from other projects that people might want. Fusion-4, Fusion-6, HTM-6, Marksman, Ares, Marksman Pro, Maximus-12, Magnum-12, Titan-615, Cinema-10, 893, Concentric-8, Continuum, Beta Vee, and some others never broke even on cost.
The first things you always hear about DIYSG is how great the speakers are, and how awesome Erich is on a personal level!

Probably the next thing you hear is that it's hard to know what speakers a person should get.


This is 50% due to the fact that the designs have a lot of overlap. There's no clear "good", "better", and "best" choice in each category -- which is perhaps unavoidable when featuring interesting designs from multiple designers. (Not necessarily a bad thing)

It's also 50% due to the fact that right now the site doesn't really help folks make those comparisons.

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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
Curt and I thought the 8" Cobalt MT and MTM's would do good and people would consider them as an alternative because there were many people asking for a high sensitivity dome tweeter speaker kit. MT, MTM, center channel, and a matching angled surround were done. 100 flat packs for each of those....excited to get them on the site.......I think only 10 kits total have been built in one year. Break even point: maybe 25 years at the current rate.
This is a good example!

I had no idea they were high sensitivity, and that's actually something I'm interested in -- I've got some 95dB sensitive speakers in the garage, and one thing I love about the OS and S2000 MTM is that they are high-ish sensitivity and put out some really nice bass and have relatively compact designs.

But the Cobalts went up at the same time as the Apollos and others, and I thought the asymmetric driver spacing on the Cobalts was kind of low-WAF so I didn't really look into them.

My concrete suggestion would be to think of a couple of "key strengths" for each design that could be featured on the product listing page. I think you already have these listed on product detail page -- maybe it's just a matter of getting them to display.

Here's a few mockups of possible changes...

Right thumbnail: Most important I think is to give people some guidance "at a glance" without making them click on every single speaker. (This was supposed to be the first thumbnail, but I can't control the order of the attachments )

Left thumbnail: Small iteration of the first thumbnail. We identify some key attributes and display them in badges/capsules. This lets folks see at a glance which kits are baffle only (vs. full cabinet), which extend to the 40hz range, whatever. In the Home Theater section, might be good to let people know at a glance which speakers are "Subwoofer Optional" and "Subwoofer Recommended" via those badges.
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Last edited by John Booty; 02-02-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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