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dorri732 01-21-2019 04:06 AM

Upcoming products at DiySoundGroup
 
Erich posted an update. Looks like some good stuff heading our way:

JANUARY 20, 2019
There were some requests for a cheaper version of the HTM models since the Deltalites increased in price. Eminence allowed us to make a couple small changes to their Beta-10 and Beta-12 woofers and after testing we decided they'd work great for these new designs. There's also an 8" version using a Celestion woofer. The designs are done and I'll be getting photos and product pages up very soon, probably called the HT series. There will also be a dual 8" woofer center channel for the cheaper HT line and possibly a dual 10" woofer center channel as well.

This week I'll be listing a powerful 'Buy Out' 15" subwoofer made by Eminence. It works in sealed boxes but will put out a lot of bass in ported boxes as small as 4cuft. It will actually beat many 18" sealed subs in the same cabinet size. They'd also make incredible midbass modules, but might be overkill for that. I'll be putting up specs and recommended box sizes this week. I don't have a huge number of these, but there were enough that it made sense to get them for the DIY guys to use.

There's a big DIY community project that was started about 4 years ago on the AVS forum. The goal was making top of the line coaxial speakers. I'll get some more information posted about this project, but the good news is that the 12" and 15" models are complete and manufactured. Actual speaker designs were started a little while ago and should be ready in a couple months (or sooner). Click here if you haven't seen the project.

The designer of the 1099 ( a.k.a - TuxedoCivic) worked on a high end 3 way speaker that uses a Motus 8" woofer, Morel midrange, and a big Fountek ribbon. That design is complete and I'll be getting the kit listed in about a month along with his Life 5 design.

If you've been waiting for me to put the Fusion-8 (Alchemy) speaker kits back on the site, I'll try to get them back up this week. There aren't any flat packs for those right now and I'm not sure if more will be made up.

Important Reminder: If you have ideas for new speaker kits, or wish there was something on the site that isn't there, please send me an email to let me know.

Pradeep2 01-21-2019 08:02 AM

Excited for the 15" with the same Celestion CD as the Titan 615lx, looks perfect for robust surrounds.

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mrevo2u 01-21-2019 09:56 AM

seem to remember the fusion 8's were available with a bamboo cabinet back in the day. any chance those will be brought back? what is your opinion on 12/15" coaxials versus fusion-8 for dedicated 2 channel audio?

CrusherW9 01-21-2019 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrevo2u (Post 57474630)
seem to remember the fusion 8's were available with a bamboo cabinet back in the day. any chance those will be brought back? what is your opinion on 12/15" coaxials versus fusion-8 for dedicated 2 channel audio?

I would be interested to know about this (coaxials vs fusion-8) as well.

Flynnr 01-22-2019 10:35 AM

great news!

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrusherW9 (Post 57474688)
I would be interested to know about this (coaxials vs fusion-8) as well.

Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

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Pradeep2 01-22-2019 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57481838)
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

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I believe it's a question of surface area and motor strength. The 15 is barely moving in comparison to the 8s, to produce a given output. With a strong neo motor providing the force there's no sloppiness. And its easier to crossover to massive subwoofer systems.

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STL D 01-22-2019 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57481838)
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

You forget about motor strength... If the larger woofer has the motor strength to accomodate the heavier mass, then speed really wouldn't be an issue.

If you push something that's 5 pounds with one arm, and push something 10 pounds with both arms using the same amount of force with each arm that you did the 5 pound item, they'll both travel at the same speed.

Physics is an interesting thing indeed.

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pradeep2 (Post 57482164)
I believe it's a question of surface area and motor strength. The 15 is barely moving in comparison to the 8s, to produce a given output. With a strong neo motor providing the force there's no sloppiness. And its easier to crossover to massive subwoofer systems.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Sloppiness? Yeah, no. It's a physics thing. The larger driver weighs more and is harder to accelerate. When you look at the response curves of any larger woofer they quit puting out maybe in the 2K range or so. The forcing function, described as Fe^jwt, becomes too rapid for the woofer (mass) to respond. Smaller drivers -- teeters, mid-range drivers and even small woofers are going to be faster, more articulate, and integrate in the crossover region better. The right size magnet is the right sized magnet -- material aside.

Again, the larger driver, as you have noted, will play louder -- especially in the lower bass range and might me more dynamic for HT (so that compromise might be OK with the listener, but he is trading one thing for another), but there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

I will also use my setup for music and so I will bias the bass driver of the satellite (basically that's what it is) for smooth integration with the tweeter and more articulate mid-range as opposed to dynamic range, since the dual 8s will give me enough of that to begin with.

I could see others biasing their choice in another direction for their own personal reasons.

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STL D (Post 57482204)
You forget about motor strength... If the larger woofer has the motor strength to accomodate the heavier mass, then speed really wouldn't be an issue.

If you push something that's 5 pounds with one arm, and push something 10 pounds with both arms using the same amount of force with each arm that you did the 5 pound item, they'll both travel at the same speed.

Physics is an interesting thing indeed.

No I did not. ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.

Pradeep2 01-22-2019 04:27 PM

I think if one had the space the 615lx with 6.5" midrange covering 350Hz to 1900Hz would be preferable. The question in my mind is how close to the performance of the 615lx can the 15" coax model get in a box that's only 20" by 20".

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CrusherW9 01-22-2019 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482310)
ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.

I'm not sure that's true. Larger woofers flex more and have higher directivity at higher frequencies. A driver can't be "fast" or "slow" in the sense you're talking. If it was, it would be playing a different frequency. Speed of a driver is dictated by frequency and SPL.

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrusherW9 (Post 57482878)
I'm not sure that's true. Larger woofers flex more and have higher directivity at higher frequencies. A driver can't be "fast" or "slow" in the sense you're talking. If it was, it would be playing a different frequency. Speed of a driver is dictated by frequency and SPL.

At the same frequency assuming they are both capable of doing it, then that's probably a fair statement, but you did bring up the other undesirable characteristics of large drivers at high frequencies. In the sense I'm taking about it the smaller driver plays both higher and better at the higher frequencies. It's faster in that sense. While the larger driver is tapering off, getting beamy and breaking up, the smaller driver goes up in a predictable and more stable (theoretically for sure and mostly usually practically so) way. That means the smaller driver will almost always (yes that's a powerful word) mesh better with the high frequency driver.

I get why someone would go there, but one would fully expect a 12-15" driver mated to a horn, tweeter, or wave guide to sound less musical... fully.

So personally, and we all have both different priories and preferences, I would never mate a high frequency driver with anything bigger than an 8.

dorri732 01-22-2019 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482244)
...there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

I never heard anyone say that the Fusion 15 or Fusion 12 weren't high fidelity speakers. I'm sure there are others.

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorri732 (Post 57483078)
I never heard anyone say that the Fusion 15 or Fusion 12 weren't high fidelity speakers. I'm sure there are others.

Okay I'll say it they are not high Fidelity speakers. they're home theater speakers and I'm sure they do what they do just fine, but they are not high end high Fidelity speakers by any stretch of the imagination. My opinion.

DS-21 01-22-2019 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482244)
there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.


http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/r...r#.XEfKFaROnDs

QED.

mtg90 01-22-2019 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57481838)
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

You do realize the 8's in the Fusion-8 crossover nearly an octave higher then woofer in the Fusion-15 right? Technically if you view this as crossover point vs. cone diameter they are roughly the same.

mtg90 01-22-2019 06:17 PM


sigpig 01-22-2019 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482244)
but there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

Tannoy disagrees with you: https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Ta...oogtrans(en|en)

18Hurts 01-22-2019 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57483140)
Okay I'll say it they are not high Fidelity speakers. they're home theater speakers and I'm sure they do what they do just fine, but they are not high end high Fidelity speakers by any stretch of the imagination. My opinion.

I think you are confused,

This is the DIY forum, not the 2 channel forum--you clicked on the wrong link. Just trying to be helpful.

If you desire to learn about how speakers, crossovers, different speaker designs and how to improve not only speaker quality but to get it to work properly in your room--this is the right place. If the object of your game is to parrot speaker mythology spewed over the ages and to get people to side on your belief system...wrong room!

Not often we get a audiophile troll in the DIY forum... if you desire to educate us on your opinion, start your own thread so to not screw up the OP discussion.

asarose247 01-22-2019 07:27 PM

Conversely. . .02

what if the room isn't a high end fidelity room, or, similarly, a HT space . .

Many are here for proven value, performance, charts, even talking /email to the guy, usually not a CSR, who built/tested/ stands by HIS speaker that you can have confidence in, as a start.

you won't get the flowery and subjective smear /sell job
my favorite: Flabby bass
the blessing of modern advertising has bestowed an amazingly imaginative descriptive repertoire into the field of acoustic fidelity . . JS

what's your favorite?

then learn to add, as budget and other factors allow.

optimizing whichever REQ, Sub and multiple Sub EQ / Integration , mastering REW
and discover the fun and (decorative) challenge of first echelon Room Treatment, side wall and ceiling reflections, corner traps

The details and clarity revealed for me with a simple pair of HTM6's is for a small room, rediscovering things I've played to but really didn't take time to hear all that's going on. .

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 07:45 PM

Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).

I also get you on the, higher crossover and the 8" driver, but I'm up agaist that one too because I don't feel comfortable going any smaller and crossing over to the subs I've got our I would. Of course everything is a compromise unless there isn't much of a budget -- I got one so it is what it is. I'm making an HT system, not a sky's the limit audiophile system.

However I will note that if the subs are picking up the bass for the surround speakers and Atmos, do I need really NEED a 15" coxial speaker? Send like you'd be better off at that point to have a 3-way, but just thinking out loud (that never gets you in trouble... Right?)!

mtg90 01-22-2019 08:21 PM

There is a plan to use the larger coaxials in fullrange tower designs which would be ideal for someone who wants a basic 2-channel music system using high sensitivity drivers.

There are benefits to using a larger coaxial other then just maximum output, the biggest is directivity control. Much like a waveguide a larger cone give better pattern control to lower frequencies then a smaller waveguide or coaxial cone would. You also reduce required cone excursion for a given output level, this minimizes the chance of high frequencies modulation due to cone excursions when compared with a smaller coaxial at similar output levels.

Erich H 01-22-2019 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57483738)
Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).

They've been done for decades. They're becoming less common because companies know a big speaker costs a lot more to design, build, package, and ship. And that really holds true when they're trying to maximize their dollar on speakers shipped in a container to/from other countries. So big companies have quite a few incentives to push for smaller and smaller speakers.

There's also a lot of good info here and a couple other forums that explain the benefits of a big 2 way with a low crossover point. I stink at explaining things, so I won't even try. :D

kennyandersen 01-22-2019 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asarose247 (Post 57483664)
Conversely. . .02

what if the room isn't a high end fidelity room, or, similarly, a HT space . .

Many are here for proven value, performance, charts, even talking /email to the guy, usually not a CSR, who built/tested/ stands by HIS speaker that you can have confidence in, as a start.

you won't get the flowery and subjective smear /sell job
my favorite: Flabby bass
the blessing of modern advertising has bestowed an amazingly imaginative descriptive repertoire into the field of acoustic fidelity . . JS

what's your favorite?

then learn to add, as budget and other factors allow.

optimizing whichever REQ, Sub and multiple Sub EQ / Integration , mastering REW
and discover the fun and (decorative) challenge of first echelon Room Treatment, side wall and ceiling reflections, corner traps

The details and clarity revealed for me with a simple pair of HTM6's is for a small room, rediscovering things I've played to but really didn't take time to hear all that's going on. .

I think this is the elephant in the room! So many rooms are pretty bad -- mine included, that I pretty much finally gave up pursuing that elusive perfect sound in any case. As an engineer, I realize that almost every single thing we so is a compromise of some kind. I have relegated my extreme 2-channel audiophile system to virtual pipe organ duty in the formal living room and am now striving for a reasonable HT system in the family room (catch that not any of my rooms would be considered ideal!), which, in the end, I'll get more use out of, since I have little time to sit down and listen critically anyway.

The other truth be told is I don't have a dedicated HT room so the box size becomes a factor -- you can only get so many boxes of a certain size past STMBO. The volt 6s are a good size to sneak in, as is the fusion 8 center (no AT screen here!) and the cinema 8s -- they have a form factor that the larger drivers can't meet. If I and the space, the dedicated HT room, the AT screen, and the budget, I'd be looking at the 1099s! (of course -- they got some midrange!!).

asarose247 01-22-2019 10:13 PM

@kennyandersen

"'Tis a Puzzlement": The elephant in the room is .. the room.
who knew?
almost a Zen Mobius Koan. . .

we do take this stuff (perhaps a bit too) seriously . .

virtual pipe organ duty ?

heard this one? just f'kn awesome. enjoy. also, a space with a true RT60


asarose247 01-22-2019 10:41 PM

FYI and FTR

that sounds better in stereo with just the HTM6's , and subs

Try this one also, that clarinet is so huge, voices clear and distinct for 4 part harmony


kennyandersen 01-22-2019 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asarose247 (Post 57484232)
@kennyandersen

"'Tis a Puzzlement": The elephant in the room is .. the room.
who knew?
almost a Zen Mobius Koan. . .

we do take this stuff (perhaps a bit too) seriously . .

virtual pipe organ duty ?

heard this one? just f'kn awesome. enjoy. also, a space with a true RT60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNL...&index=50&t=0s

Nice... Uh, he's a fair chunk better'n me! I play some in church out of necessity.

I bought a full-sized AGO-compliant organ that had been hit by lightning. The internals we too far gone to fix so I gutted it, stuck in some midi boards what go into a sound card and have it set up with Grande Orgue, which is a free VPO (virtual pipe organ) software. I'm still running the default organ but I've downloaded some other organs to try, I just need to quit working 60 hours/wk (been doing that for over a year and a half straight!) So I have time to do hobby stuff. The pedal board still has a couple of little details to take care of but it works good enough to practice on. It will be going out to an MTM satellite with all Dynaudio: Esotar tweeters and 150mm drivers with (4) 30W100s in some Sono tubes. Did take the wife's collectible plates!

asarose247 01-22-2019 11:03 PM

makes me miss a radio show called "Gee Dad"

Spoiler!


perhaps you know it. . .

back to the new products - waiting to see them

Trimlock 01-23-2019 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57483738)
Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).

Eric made some good points why you don't see them, but you also need to understand that ... just because you 'rarely' see them doesn't translate to anything to do with fidelity. Correlation does not equate causation.


Hypothetically:


The OEM sells products, the 15" is better in everyway than their 8" version but the man doesn't want a big 15" in their room and goes with the smaller version. Understandable, most people just want sound, if they were truly suspicious of sound quality than there would be no sound bars. Now with the 15" model they were set to make the bulk of their money, the 8" was their introductory maybe even loss leader. What is an OEM to do? Sell you on a bunch of hog wash to let you know that those 8" drivers are somehow better than the 15" version and up the price.


Size and cost sells, snake oil makes them more expensive. **** there's an $8,000 5-channel/150watt amp being praised on the front page!

kennyandersen 01-23-2019 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trimlock (Post 57484566)
Eric made some good points why you don't see them, but you also need to understand that ... just because you 'rarely' see them doesn't translate to anything to do with fidelity. Correlation does not equate causation.


Hypothetically:


The OEM sells products, the 15" is better in everyway than their 8" version but the man doesn't want a big 15" in their room and goes with the smaller version. Understandable, most people just want sound, if they were truly suspicious of sound quality than there would be no sound bars. Now with the 15" model they were set to make the bulk of their money, the 8" was their introductory maybe even loss leader. What is an OEM to do? Sell you on a bunch of hog wash to let you know that those 8" drivers are somehow better than the 15" version and up the price.


Size and cost sells, snake oil makes them more expensive. **** there's an $8,000 5-channel/150watt amp being praised on the front page!

You are absolutely correct. So glad you piped in after that was all settled.

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Red Five 01-23-2019 04:46 AM

On the 12" and 15" coaxials are you planning on having a cabinet model with a depth that is AT screen friendly? @Erich H

cdy2179 01-23-2019 05:29 AM

@Erich H Is the Fusion 8 coming back? Of all the pro cinema and diysound group speakers I've owned and do own, it's my favorite.

dorri732 01-23-2019 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdy2179 (Post 57484950)
@Erich H Is the Fusion 8 coming back? Of all the pro cinema and diysound group speakers I've owned and do own, it's my favorite.

From the update post:
If you've been waiting for me to put the Fusion-8 (Alchemy) speaker kits back on the site, I'll try to get them back up this week. There aren't any flat packs for those right now and I'm not sure if more will be made up.

EndersShadow 01-23-2019 06:45 AM

Can't wait to see whats coming...

I by no means have a "dedicated space" as its my family room, which is far from ideal....... So hoping for some fun stuff, mainly towers (have 2 small kids + dogs so need something with weight that wont tip). Been debating the 1099's (since 893's disappeared before I was in the marked to buy), 1299's and also the Titans (my wife likes my Polk SDA form factor at least for L/R).

Can't wait to see what Tower designs are coming out soon.... also surround sized stuff as my HT will be entirely redone (hopefully this year).

As a audiophile nut, I will admit quite a few of these DIY builds put my mouth on the floor (Titan, HTM12, Volt6, Quarks, Fusion's).... especially when I heard @mtg90 funky horn thing (that he cant sell/build others of)..... I wont say that they beat out some of the STUPID EXPENSIVE speakers I've heard... but for their price-point they are impossible to beat and bring a crap ton to the table for most people (high efficiency, ease of assembly, AVR friendly, etc).

STL D 01-23-2019 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482310)
No I did not. ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.

Seriously?

Legacy has a "high fidelity" speaker with FOUR 15s in it.

JBL's m2 has 15s.

Then there's this thing too...
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

What are you talking about??? Yes, you have to cross over lower on bigger drivers, but that doesn't make them less articulate or less accurate.

jcmccorm 01-23-2019 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STL D (Post 57486724)
Seriously?

Legacy has a "high fidelity" speaker with FOUR 15s in it.

JBL's m2 has 15s.

Then there's this thing too...
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

What are you talking about??? Yes, you have to cross over lower on bigger drivers, but that doesn't make them less articulate or less accurate.

Well, and not to pile on, but I'm going to pile on a bit with a question...:)

For larger speaker drivers reproducing higher frequencies, what factor determines roll-off the most; weight or inductance?

kennyandersen 01-23-2019 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STL D (Post 57486724)
Seriously?

Legacy has a "high fidelity" speaker with FOUR 15s in it.

JBL's m2 has 15s.

Then there's this thing too...
https://magico.net/product/ultimate.php

What are you talking about??? Yes, you have to cross over lower on bigger drivers, but that doesn't make them less articulate or less accurate.

Let me start by saying it may be that if it's done right it would be perfectly fine. I've never heard a horn system that I thought sounded particularly good, and I've never heard a JBL speaker of any kind that I thought I got to get me some of that. Maybe that's personal preference, maybe I just didn't hear a good one so it tainted my view of them -- I'm willing to admit this is a real possibility.

I've read a lot about the wave guides and the work that went into them by Erich and others, and a lot of people really liking them -- I have high expectations and in fact I'm excited to try them out.

Maybe it's like Chinese food. I lived in Hong Kong for two years and am well acquainted with the food. I frequently have non-Asians tell me how much they liked so and so restaurant only to be hugely disappointed.

I have a high degree of confidance that this won't be like that. Peace.

notfastenough 01-23-2019 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57481838)
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482244)
Sloppiness? Yeah, no. It's a physics thing. The larger driver weighs more and is harder to accelerate. When you look at the response curves of any larger woofer they quit puting out maybe in the 2K range or so. The forcing function, described as Fe^jwt, becomes too rapid for the woofer (mass) to respond. Smaller drivers -- teeters, mid-range drivers and even small woofers are going to be faster, more articulate, and integrate in the crossover region better. The right size magnet is the right sized magnet -- material aside.

Again, the larger driver, as you have noted, will play louder -- especially in the lower bass range and might me more dynamic for HT (so that compromise might be OK with the listener, but he is trading one thing for another), but there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

I will also use my setup for music and so I will bias the bass driver of the satellite (basically that's what it is) for smooth integration with the tweeter and more articulate mid-range as opposed to dynamic range, since the dual 8s will give me enough of that to begin with.

I could see others biasing their choice in another direction for their own personal reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57482310)
No I did not. ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57483738)
Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).

I also get you on the, higher crossover and the 8" driver, but I'm up agaist that one too because I don't feel comfortable going any smaller and crossing over to the subs I've got our I would. Of course everything is a compromise unless there isn't much of a budget -- I got one so it is what it is. I'm making an HT system, not a sky's the limit audiophile system.

However I will note that if the subs are picking up the bass for the surround speakers and Atmos, do I need really NEED a 15" coxial speaker? Send like you'd be better off at that point to have a 3-way, but just thinking out loud (that never gets you in trouble... Right?)!

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57486878)
Let me start by saying it may be that if it's done right it would be perfectly fine. I've never heard a horn system that I thought sounded particularly good, and I've never heard a JBL speaker of any kind that I thought I got to get me some of that. Maybe that's personal preference, maybe I just didn't hear a good one so it tainted my view of them -- I'm willing to admit this is a real possibility.

I've read a lot about the wave guides and the work that went into them by Erich and others, and a lot of people really liking them -- I have high expectations and in fact I'm excited to try them out.

Maybe it's like Chinese food. I lived in Hong Kong for two years and am well acquainted with the food. I frequently have non-Asians tell me how much they liked so and so restaurant only to be hugely disappointed.

I have a high degree of confidance that this won't be like that. Peace.

I'd really like to pick this apart, but it'd be a waste of time.

Ultimately, if you are excited about the DIYSG products coming out, it would be nice to hear about that rather than a partially informed lecture turned food analogy.

Personally, I'm interested in what low depth (behind screen) options are in the works. I've got some WAF things to consider, but love the idea of using a DIYSG product one day.

asarose247 01-23-2019 12:33 PM

the low depth is so attractive . .

except for budget, I'd ditch the klipsch F3 towers as rears, get another 88 special
take out my cc 88 and make them the rears
my F15's stay L/R and get a HTM12 as a CC

that's a bed layer of 7 all with the 15" horns . . .

my HTM6's are so scary good, I'm tempted to replace all 4 Volt6's in my SCATMOS array . . and settle just for ATMOS . . .

it never ends . .

kennyandersen 01-23-2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfastenough (Post 57487322)
I'd really like to pick this apart, but it'd be a waste of time.

Ultimately, if you are excited about the DIYSG products coming out, it would be nice to hear about that rather than a partially informed lecture turned food analogy.

Personally, I'm interested in what low depth (behind screen) options are in the works. I've got some WAF things to consider, but love the idea of using a DIYSG product one day.

Thanks for not wasting our time. I think you'll enjoy it. I've been building speakers for more than 30 years off and on. In fact I wouldn't even consider buying a speaker and have built my own amp, preamp, and electronic crossovers. I am completely behind the diy effort even if I'm not particularly fond of a given approach. If you are anywhere near the DFW area of Texas feel free to drop in for some bbq. I also have an open shop policy if you want to cut wood. Cheers!

notfastenough 01-23-2019 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57487512)
Thanks for not wasting our time. I think you'll enjoy it. I've been building speakers for more than 30 years off and on. In fact I wouldn't even consider buying a speaker and have built my own amp, preamp, and electronic crossovers. I am completely behind the diy effort even if I'm not particularly fond of a given approach. If you are anywhere near the DFW area of Texas feel free to drop in for some bbq. I also have an open shop policy if you want to cut wood. Cheers!

Yep, DFW-born and raised. I'm familiar with where some of the BBQ is at;)

Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting. Good extension down to 50-60 hz and the dispersion from the larger SEOS. Maybe one day I'll have enough time to do it unless someone beats me and I get to play copycat (hurt my feelings lol). I love to build them, but for me, time is a bit too finite for development that rivals what the guys at DIYSG put together.

Hell, if I change houses, that form factor might not even be relevant any more anyways. Then what was all that time spent for?

kennyandersen 01-23-2019 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notfastenough (Post 57487666)
Yep, DFW-born and raised. I'm familiar with where some of the BBQ is at;)

Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting. Good extension down to 50-60 hz and the dispersion from the larger SEOS. Maybe one day I'll have enough time to do it unless someone beats me and I get to play copycat (hurt my feelings lol). I love to build them, but for me, time is a bit too finite for development that rivals what the guys at DIYSG put together.

Hell, if I change houses, that form factor might not even be relevant any more anyways. Then what was all that time spent for?

Now see that's what I'm talking about -- I could get after that. You get ready to build I will help you cut some wood. Even though I can come off as a bit pissy, I'm really a pussycat! I'm a bit of a woodworking savant. Round square, pyramids -- you name it!

Time is a deal though, so if Erich has a flat pack I will pick it up -- his prices are beyond fair and the job is quicker.

Unfortunately, I needed custom marties so a flat pack want going to work. I'll post pictures of it soon. Just finished the volt 8 flat packs (rear surrounds) as well and they were very nicely done and I was impressed by the quality. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend them.

asarose247 01-23-2019 01:30 PM

2 Attachment(s)
^ the F4 is already like 28" wide . . .

this :Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting.

would be a very interesting looking monster . .

i think part of the discussion wrt 88 specials was that the driver size and separation due to the horn size in an MTM box created too many comb filtering (and other) issues, hence the over/under .
the popularity due to the "where it fits" and look of the MTM box isn't necessarily engineered to the acoustic benefit of the buyer/listener

FTR: as surrounds XT32 put the xo for my F4's @40

and the same as for FH's . .

but bring it ON

MKtheater 01-23-2019 01:55 PM

It is nice to form an opinion without hearing then first. :eek:

notfastenough 01-23-2019 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asarose247 (Post 57487834)
^ the F4 is already like 28" wide . . .

this :Something like a ramped up F4Q4 is what I have on my wish list. 2 way, larger drivers (6" to 8") in MMTMM with a SEOS 10 or 12 with that F4Q4 proportion for vertical wall mounting.

would be a very interesting looking monster . .

i think part of the discussion wrt 88 specials was that the driver size and separation due to the horn size in an MTM box created too many comb filtering (and other) issues, hence the over/under .
the popularity due to the "where it fits" and look of the MTM box isn't necessarily engineered to the acoustic benefit of the buyer/listener

FTR: as surrounds XT32 put the xo for my F4's @40

and the same as for FH's . .

but bring it ON

With all the recent discussion of center channels, I understand why the horizontal thing is first on the mind. For this "outta left field" idea, it would be 3 matching MMTMM "pillars" (with shallow depth also) as close to the front wall as possible all mounted vertically. Kinda unique/odd versus the norm, but I really enjoy that look for the L & R and want a matching center for behind the screen. If it were the F4's, I'd arrange them the same, but really kinda regret not getting to experience the large WG experience.

Oh, and 40 hz for the F4 is cool! Have you used them as mains before? I wonder if just going to a bigger WG would make those an option for this concept....

What CD do they use?

asarose247 01-23-2019 02:38 PM

i recall a few threads of lcr F4's .

there were no regrets for look and performance but some were hampered by space considerations, that ole devil WAF thingy and beyond
and no reports of how well they EQ'd or any changes wrt added room treatments and so on

I did place them out there as LR as a curiosity for a listen but no testing or XT32 EQ
and the real L/R F4 is a vertical critter so that changes a lot wrt to dispersion to the mlp

i think the cd was a "something 150"

it's a Curt Campbell design.

Flynnr 01-23-2019 03:07 PM

Ugh. Clicked this hoping to read 5 pages of awesome updates from diysg... nope, just a bunch of Bs’ing

In for more teasers on a shallowest 10” or 12” HT speaker.

Bodynerd 01-23-2019 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flynnr (Post 57488466)
Ugh. Clicked this hoping to read 5 pages of awesome updates from diysg... nope, just a bunch of Bs’ing

In for more teasers on a shallowest 10” or 12” HT speaker.

Sooo, what ya been dooooooing

DS-21 01-23-2019 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57483738)
However I will note that if the subs are picking up the bass for the surround speakers and Atmos, do I need really NEED a 15" coxial speaker? Send like you'd be better off at that point to have a 3-way, but just thinking out loud (that never gets you in trouble... Right?)!

As others have said, the benefit (or detriment, depending on perspective) of a large concentric is that its pattern control extends lower in frequency.

I'll be curious to see what Erich and Eminence have come up with in terms of how high the woofer can play. In fact neither weight nor inductance are generally the limiting factor for how high a large driver can play. Cone breakup is!
JBL needs to cross the M2 at around 800Hz to stay away from woofer breakup. Tannoy's 15" Dual Concentrics were, to my ears, markedly inferior in the midrange to their 12" Dual Concentrics because they had to run the cone into its breakup range. I would not be surprised if the 12" model ends up being the sweet spot, for people who like high-directivity speakers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57486878)
I've never heard a JBL speaker of any kind that I thought I got to get me some of that.

The M2 concept is basically sound quality of a Revel Ultima, output of a PA speaker.

notnyt 01-24-2019 12:10 AM

15s are low fidelity? News to me. Cross below cone breakup and you will have excellent performance, just like when designing with any woofer. There are plenty of 15s that can run well over 1khz, though going beyond that results in directivity narrowing a bit too much. There are readily available HF drivers around that can run low enough in a 2-way config. I'm crossing my mains at 650hz with tops that have no issue extending to 20khz with 112dbspl sensitivity and distortion so low it's a challenge to measure. No dynamics are sacrificed. Distortion is far below audible. You get as accurate a reproduction of the source signal as possible, the very definition of fidelity.

All of the DIYSG I've seen has been designed well while being budget minded. Far better than any of the hifi audiophoolery that rums rampant. I'll continue recommending them for people who want great speakers. The value you get from some of the DIYSG stuff is just incredible. The fusion 15s I put together for a friend performed remarkably well, especially given the absurdly low price point.

So in the interest of science, I'll share some measurements of my "low fidelity" 15s. You're welcome to show me what "high fidelity" looks like :P

Distortion essentially below the noise floor / limits of my mic. <0.1% THD+N @ 3 meters @ 85dbspl. These are not expensive or exotic components
https://i.imgur.com/ATlVCAd.png

How about 2x 15s? Even less distortion with this rig as sensitivity is increased by 3db, though I can't measure how low with my current mic, much like above. Flat response with excellent and linear off axis.
https://i.imgur.com/tDHrMe6.png

I'd say not far the the target. The dips are room modes in the input/raw measurements before generating filters that were left uncorrected, as it would not be ideal to do so there. As you can see, not visible in the spatial average. 8th order LR xo @ 650hz linear phase.
https://i.imgur.com/ZKwBkJc.png

https://i.imgur.com/D3Cjf3E.png

So hey, share your measurements, we can compare fidelity. These 15s aren't going anywhere. As for 10s and 12s? Nothing lofi about them because of their size.

Trimlock 01-24-2019 01:31 AM

I bet eng really hates his non-hifi, dual 15" Titans.


but back on topic:


The only items on my radar right now are 12" coaxial, Tux's new 3-way and the Helix Ribbons.


I doubt I'll purchase the new 3-way (nothing against Tux) I'm just interested to see what direction he took as I want to eventually build a high end 3-way too and plus I think 3-ways look dope as hell.


The high end coaxial has me super intrigued because I wanted to have something to pair up with the Mag 12's for a while and I'm all sorts of excited to have a 12" coaxial with a 12" woofer.


And the Helix Ribbons, wanted to buy these for some time now to upgrade my computer speakers from Paul's Spark speakers. The Sparks are no joke though, I am so happy with those.

kennyandersen 01-24-2019 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt (Post 57490268)
15s are low fidelity? News to me. Cross below cone breakup and you will have excellent performance, just like when designing with any woofer. There are plenty of 15s that can run well over 1khz, though going beyond that results in directivity narrowing a bit too much. There are readily available HF drivers around that can run low enough in a 2-way config. I'm crossing my mains at 650hz with tops that have no issue extending to 20khz with 112dbspl sensitivity and distortion so low it's a challenge to measure. No dynamics are sacrificed. Distortion is far below audible. You get as accurate a reproduction of the source signal as possible, the very definition of fidelity.

All of the DIYSG I've seen has been designed well while being budget minded. Far better than any of the hifi audiophoolery that rums rampant. I'll continue recommending them for people who want great speakers. The value you get from some of the DIYSG stuff is just incredible. The fusion 15s I put together for a friend performed remarkably well, especially given the absurdly low price point.

So in the interest of science, I'll share some measurements of my "low fidelity" 15s. You're welcome to show me what "high fidelity" looks like :P

Distortion essentially below the noise floor / limits of my mic. <0.1% THD+N @ 3 meters @ 85dbspl. These are not expensive or exotic components
https://i.imgur.com/ATlVCAd.png

How about 2x 15s? Even less distortion with this rig as sensitivity is increased by 3db, though I can't measure how low with my current mic, much like above. Flat response with excellent and linear off axis.
https://i.imgur.com/tDHrMe6.png

I'd say not far the the target. The dips are room modes in the input/raw measurements before generating filters that were left uncorrected, as it would not be ideal to do so there. As you can see, not visible in the spatial average. 8th order LR xo @ 650hz linear phase.
https://i.imgur.com/ZKwBkJc.png

https://i.imgur.com/D3Cjf3E.png

So hey, share your measurements, we can compare fidelity. These 15s aren't going anywhere. As for 10s and 12s? Nothing lofi about them because of their size.

I will certainly concede that there has been a lot of progress over the last 15-20 yrs (amount of time since I was hard at the audio thing), and what once was may not now be. I'd also agree whole heartily about cone breakup, and maybe that was what I was hearing back in the day was was just way too many instances of people pushing larger woofers to high and that may have also been because anciently the HF drivers weren't as capable as they are now so that was a necessity then. That was then this is now sort of thing. It isn't like I don't have a lot of diysg stuff on order, but more the car if I guess I wasn't a believer because I hadn't heard it and was basing that on many bad experiences in the past -- some on some every expensive speakers! If anyone in the DFW area gets a pair I will commit to go listen to them and I'll be prepared to eat all the nonsense I previously typed! Back to regular programming.

kennyandersen 01-24-2019 04:54 AM

It looks like I will be going out of country for an extended period of time for work. Apartments will be relatively small, and I won't be able to play particularly loud; so efficiency isn't a priority nor is really low bass.

I've been looking at the overnight sensations (MTM and TM), but I've noticed that little Ion-4 and Ion-4+? Anyone built either of those? Will the Ions be in stock any time soon (preferably w/tweeter)? It does anyone have an opinion on that?

Dave in Green 01-24-2019 09:46 AM

In the DIYSG Coaxials thread @Eric H said of the new 15" driver: "The frequency response is incredibly flat all the way up 4khz."

And @mtg90 said: "Typically you want to cross a 15" driver around 1000-1200hz if you want it to give you roughly a 90 degree radiation pattern (level down 6db at 45 degrees off axis)."

95bat 01-24-2019 04:18 PM

Is the new 15" for sale yet? I am going to empty my 4 cf sealed boxes so these 15s might work perfectly in them with a small port in the back.

Pradeep2 01-24-2019 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95bat (Post 57494690)
Is the new 15" for sale yet? I am going to empty my 4 cf sealed boxes so these 15s might work perfectly in them with a small port in the back.

Sounds like it will be a couple of months if they are still deciding on flat pack sizes.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

95bat 01-24-2019 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pradeep2 (Post 57494732)
Sounds like it will be a couple of months if they are still deciding on flat pack sizes.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

He said he'll be listing the 15" woofer this week... does 'listing' not mean 'selling'?

Pradeep2 01-25-2019 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95bat (Post 57495416)
He said he'll be listing the 15" woofer this week... does 'listing' not mean 'selling'?

Oh I think that's referring to the "buy out woofer", not the new coaxials.

Edit: my apologies, that's the woofer you were talking about. Let us know how that works out - what drivers were you using before?

kennyandersen 01-25-2019 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 95bat (Post 57495416)
He said he'll be listing the 15" woofer this week... does 'listing' not mean 'selling'?

Could mean they got the prototypes in, he is checking them, making sure everything is OK, and that they meet expectations etc.

Selling means you can click on the website and order. I've not been able to order, or pay for anything that wasn't on the website, but that might be a recent phenomenon, since I'm pretty new, or that might just be the way it is. Regardless, if you can't click on it... It's likely not for sale yet.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

asarose247 01-25-2019 01:24 PM

wrt xo for a 15" and F15 and its xo

"Typically you want to cross a 15" driver around 1000-1200hz if you want it to give you roughly a 90 degree radiation pattern (level down 6db at 45 degrees off axis)."

iirc, F15 xo is 900 or 950, and made a great "match' as the 88 xo is 900 or 950

F15's far and away AWESOME!
you can lower the tuning, same baffle but a deeper box to about 5.5ft^3. It's been done . .

Mandroid 01-26-2019 07:26 AM

@Erich H made mention of sending ideas for new speakers.

My favorite speaker idea is a value-oriented monster 3-way reminiscent of the 1899. The Titan is probably filling this niche already, it would be too large for a flat-pack, and WAF would be non-existent. Benefits(maybe?) include more tactile output from the pair of large drivers, and having two woofers might slightly improve the horrendous 80-200Hz response many are cursed with in their rooms.

The speaker would be of the WMTW variety. Woofers would be PA380s, or some other inexpensive option that can get close to 80Hz sealed. Alternatively, they model well in small-ish volume tuned for midbass.

Midrange might be a Celestion TF1020. Highs could be Peerless CD with SEOS 12.

Voicing would include strong mid-bass similar to some of JTR's offerings.

dorri732 01-26-2019 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandroid (Post 57502378)
@EricH made mention of sending ideas for new speakers.

Just an fyi, it's @Erich H , not @EricH .

95bat 01-26-2019 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pradeep2 (Post 57496486)
Oh I think that's referring to the "buy out woofer", not the new coaxials.

Edit: my apologies, that's the woofer you were talking about. Let us know how that works out - what drivers were you using before?

They're the boxes my two UM-18s are in right now :) The UM-18s are going in dual opposed enclosures now that I have 4 and the 4 cf sealed boxes will be ready for something new! I was thinking the PA460, but if this 15" is priced similarly, I'll go with those. They'll just be a fun garage system with my old inuke 6000.


Quote:

Originally Posted by kennyandersen (Post 57496516)
Could mean they got the prototypes in, he is checking them, making sure everything is OK, and that they meet expectations etc.

Selling means you can click on the website and order. I've not been able to order, or pay for anything that wasn't on the website, but that might be a recent phenomenon, since I'm pretty new, or that might just be the way it is. Regardless, if you can't click on it... It's likely not for sale yet.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Thanks for the input :) I haven't ordered speakers from them yet either, just some flat packs. I have wanted 1099s for a long time, but they're too tall for my living room. Maybe if they bring back the 893s I can pick up some of those. Plus, I love bass so dang much I just keep upgrading subwoofers lol.

tential 01-27-2019 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dorri732 (Post 57485280)
From the update post:
If you've been waiting for me to put the Fusion-8 (Alchemy) speaker kits back on the site, I'll try to get them back up this week. There aren't any flat packs for those right now and I'm not sure if more will be made up.

I think the largest reason for less interest in the Fusion line is the Home Theater Monitor line is the first major line to have a name where it says a use purpose. So now people believe you need that for home theater.
Eric H isn't a marketer, and I don't think that effect really was understood.
Fusion line has never been "marketed" and sure long time users know it, but if you just quickly look for the first time as a new user, you have no idea what Fusion means, but Home Theater Monitor will instantly catch your eye.

Fusion line just needs to be brought back with a better name, or change the HTM name to Alpha (like before) or something so it's either both obscure, or both descriptive.

mtg90 01-27-2019 11:38 AM

The idea is to bring back the Fusion name/line with new speakers designed to have a more full range response making them better for mixed use then the HTM's which are more strictly HT oriented and meant to be used with subs.

Last I heard the Alchemy's will be brought back but I am not sure what line they will fit into.

asarose247 01-27-2019 01:28 PM

@mtg90 . . .

a simple inquiry, no, really . .

drpepperdad and his build of the CSS Criton1TD , VNWBTW,

I surfed on over and one item I saw got my attention.

You can upgrade the xo's for the set for only $400
i.e. a mere $200 per speaker, undoubtedly pure unobtanium

interesting contrast when you can buy the whole basic kit and flatpack for $600.

I don't need nor would understand a short treatise on xo design , most likely there is no such thing.. and we don't know the parts, atm, so comparative explanation not needed wrt "justification"

however

blah blah blah

a suggestion of the possibility of that "route" as a viable part of the DIYSG marketing / business plan / growth / up-grade-itis offerings.

I realize DIYSG gets good cred for high value with minimum compromise

after a few more hours, the HTM6's - wunnerful, wunnerful, wunnerful . . .

TY

kennyandersen 01-27-2019 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtg90 (Post 57508288)
The idea is to bring back the Fusion name/line with new speakers designed to have a more full range response making them better for mixed use then the HTM's which are more strictly HT oriented and meant to be used with subs.



Last I heard the Alchemy's will be brought back but I am not sure what line they will fit into.

Might I suggest a new category? How about:

All-arounders
Multi-roll
Do-it-alls

Speakers that are maybe in-between what are considered traditional music-optimized and speakers considered HT-specific.

Just an idea...

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

mtg90 01-27-2019 02:00 PM

I think the Fusion name works quite well for their intended roll.

Fusion - "The process of combining two or more distinct entities into a new whole".

asarose247 01-27-2019 02:42 PM

^
can a brother and fellow believer get an AMEN

JohnDean 01-27-2019 02:48 PM

I liked the fusion line for the sensitivity and well...ocd... matching the seos and driver sizes. If the seos/cd's and crossover schematics were available, I'd be fine making my own baffles and ordering the rest of the parts from PartsExpress

mrevo2u 01-28-2019 08:30 AM

diysg still down? Been down for about 4 days? Maybe Erich is updating the site?

Erich H 01-28-2019 08:53 AM

It was down Saturday morning.

The hosting company said the site was getting targeted with a large amount of traffic/hits from one IP address. I guess they normally shut the site down for a couple minutes, then bring it back up which would normally solve the issue if it was a 'spam bot' or whatever. But they said it kept happening 4 more times from the same IP, so they shut the site down to keep it from causing issues with the server it's on. I don't know a lot about websites or hosting companies and I'm not sure when it will be turned back on.....so I might get a little vacation time. :D

smcmillan2 01-28-2019 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57512494)
It was down Saturday morning.

The hosting company said the site was getting targeted with a large amount of traffic/hits from one IP address.

Sorry, probably me trying to get first crack at the Fusion-8s. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H
so I might get a little vacation time. :D

And deservedly so! :)

EndersShadow 01-28-2019 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57512494)
....... I'm not sure when it will be turned back on.....so I might get a little vacation time. :D

But.... but...... but....... :D

mrevo2u 01-28-2019 09:25 AM

so weird. Of all the sites to get a 'DNS' attack (or whatever it is called).

mtbdudex 01-28-2019 09:33 AM

My open high ceiling family room is at 5.1.2 via DIYSG, Fusion-8/Cinema-8 MTM RCL up front and Fusion-8 TM in back, with Volt-8 sealed as Atmos TM's.
Due to rear of room constraints, and need to lower the back surrounds, I'm putting HTM-6's there as they are thinner.
Maybe I will put a 2nd pair of HTM'6's up front as Atmos Front Heights for 5.1.4, tbd.

I will use the Fusion-8's TM's ... not sure where yet possible as computer 2 ch for now.

Basement HT needs a full speaker upgrade, as what's doen there is 2008 commercial stuff, Paradigm, in a 9.2.4 / 7.2.6 setup.
I am looking forward to getting my hands onto (2) pairs of HTM-8's, as I will use those for side/rear surrounds, as soon as they are live I'm placing the order.

I've been eyeing Titans for front soundstage, but the upgraded 1099's .... catch my eye just now...

fwiw ... I also got this "503 Service Unavailable
Server currently undergoing maintenance. Webmaster: please contact support."
via this https://www.diysoundgroup.com/

jpmst3 01-28-2019 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57512494)
It was down Saturday morning.

The hosting company said the site was getting targeted with a large amount of traffic/hits from one IP address. I guess they normally shut the site down for a couple minutes, then bring it back up which would normally solve the issue if it was a 'spam bot' or whatever. But they said it kept happening 4 more times from the same IP, so they shut the site down to keep it from causing issues with the server it's on. I don't know a lot about websites or hosting companies and I'm not sure when it will be turned back on.....so I might get a little vacation time. :D

The ISP should be able to quickly block the offending IP address. :confused:

impreza276 01-28-2019 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrevo2u (Post 57512710)
so weird. Of all the sites to get a 'DNS' attack (or whatever it is called).

And the IP seems to be originating from within the JBL headquarters. I kid :D

Erich H 01-28-2019 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpmst3 (Post 57512808)
The ISP should be able to quickly block the offending IP address. :confused:

I would have thought so too. Maybe that's an extra service or something that I'm not aware of, but I did ask about it in my email to the hosting company. They said there were over 73000 hits to the site very quickly. Someone really loves speakers! :D

jpmst3 01-28-2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57513052)
I would have thought so too. Maybe that's an extra service or something that I'm not aware of, but I did ask about it in my email to the hosting company. They said there were over 73000 hits to the site very quickly. Someone really loves speakers! :D

Perhaps, but they generally protect the customer's/commercial site and maintain uptime at all costs...that often involves defense against DoS attacks, Bots and the like.

Hopefully, it all stems from overwhelming demand for audio!

EndersShadow 01-28-2019 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57513052)
I would have thought so too. Maybe that's an extra service or something that I'm not aware of, but I did ask about it in my email to the hosting company. They said there were over 73000 hits to the site very quickly. Someone really loves speakers! :D



Wow... think of all that lost revenue!


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Pradeep2 01-28-2019 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57512494)
It was down Saturday morning.



The hosting company said the site was getting targeted with a large amount of traffic/hits from one IP address. I guess they normally shut the site down for a couple minutes, then bring it back up which would normally solve the issue if it was a 'spam bot' or whatever. But they said it kept happening 4 more times from the same IP, so they shut the site down to keep it from causing issues with the server it's on. I don't know a lot about websites or hosting companies and I'm not sure when it will be turned back on.....so I might get a little vacation time. :D

Please don't take offense but that sounds like some crazy behaviour on the part of your web host. The solution is to block the malicious IPs, not take your business offline.

That said if you did want to take a break....

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notnyt 01-28-2019 03:02 PM

Seriously, it literally takes 15 seconds to add a line to the nginx config to stop this:

deny 1.2.3.4;

That's it.

Your hoster is bad, and they should feel bad.

Erich H 01-28-2019 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pradeep2 (Post 57514592)
Please don't take offense but that sounds like some crazy behaviour on the part of your web host. The solution is to block the malicious IPs, not take your business offline.

That said if you did want to take a break....

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



I can't get offended because I don't really know what most of it means anyway. :D

Maybe they don't actually take the site down, just stop access to the site for a minute or two and then allow access again to see if it continues. They did that 4 times, but it continued, so they just took the whole site down. I'll have to do some research on automatically blocking IP's because the person on live chat acted like I had to manually block them.

It does look like the site is back up though, so my emailing vacation might get cut short until the next time it happens!

LondonBenji 01-28-2019 03:22 PM

Not to go too far off topic but it does very much depend on how the hosting provider is setup and how your specific account is setup.

Sure it's very simple to block one IP in principle but there's really a lot more to it otherwise. Anyway, site is back up and all is well.

Looking forward to the new speakers!

18Hurts 01-28-2019 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57514726)
It does look like the site is back up though, so my emailing vacation might get cut short until the next time it happens!

Aaaaannnnd....it is down again.

Has the site been updated with pictures, tech information and so on about the new Coaxes, Alchemy or HTM/HT speakers? If not, you can post it here for rapid feedback of your efforts. I don't think the Russians have started hacking AVS yet--but if you post and AVS goes down, then we know! ;)

It's cold out, throw us a bone! :)

mrevo2u 01-28-2019 08:56 PM

Can your provider give you a physical address of the offending ip address, in case 'we wanted to research it'?...........

This is a blanket statement because I despise people who use the Internet for nefarious purposes.... :(

CrusherW9 01-28-2019 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tential (Post 57506092)
I think the largest reason for less interest in the Fusion line is the Home Theater Monitor line is the first major line to have a name where it says a use purpose. So now people believe you need that for home theater.
Eric H isn't a marketer, and I don't think that effect really was understood.

Perhaps an explanation on what qualities make a speaker better for theater or music on the site would help as well.

sealmaniac 01-29-2019 08:16 AM

Still down:(:(

filtor1 01-29-2019 08:41 AM

It works for me.

JohnDean 01-29-2019 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtor1 (Post 57518008)
It works for me.

The homepage, as in if I google DIYSG and click the link, does not work, but if I choose a link to the 99s for example, I can get to the page, and navigate from there.

MKtheater 01-29-2019 09:31 AM

Theater speakers are typically crossed to subs in the home where a music speaker can dig deeper on its own, usually not good enough for the bass in a movie. Of course there are exceptions.

STL D 01-29-2019 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtg90 (Post 57508288)
The idea is to bring back the Fusion name/line with new speakers designed to have a more full range response making them better for mixed use then the HTM's which are more strictly HT oriented and meant to be used with subs.

Last I heard the Alchemy's will be brought back but I am not sure what line they will fit into.

While I am happy to hear the fusions will live on, I am sad to hear it will be in a new format. I was REALLY wanted to build 2 more fusion 10s at tax time to have 5x fusions as my main 5 channels. :(

Now I'll have to look at either the Volts, or maybe doing 1099s for the left and right speakers and moving 2 of the fusions to the side surrounds.

JohnDean 01-29-2019 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STL D (Post 57520058)
While I am happy to hear the fusions will live on, I am sad to hear it will be in a new format. I was REALLY wanted to build 2 more fusion 10s at tax time to have 5x fusions as my main 5 channels. :(

Now I'll have to look at either the Volts, or maybe doing 1099s for the left and right speakers.

I wanted to build a pair of Fusion 10s also. I'd like to see SEOS/CDs/xover schematics available so we can build some of the older designs and source the rest of the parts from PE.

STL D 01-29-2019 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDean (Post 57520090)
I wanted to build a pair of Fusion 10s also. I'd like to see SEOS/CDs/xover schematics available so we can build some of the older designs and source the rest of the parts from PE.

I absolutely love the 3 fusion 10s I already have, I'd just like 2 more of them.

sandydankness 01-29-2019 03:23 PM

I'm in a similar situation. Have fusion 8's for l/r and the fusion 8 center. I was hoping to round it out with cinema 8's or fusion towers to match the sensitivity of the center. I'd settle for the plain jane 8's just to have all matching drivers all the way around.

Also I squared off the center and veneered it in cherry but the l/r are black with roundovers and I want them to match.

18Hurts 01-29-2019 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STL D (Post 57520322)
I absolutely love the 3 fusion 10s I already have, I'd just like 2 more of them.

Considering you already own the Fusion 10, you already have the crossover so just duplicate it.

Erich sells the SEOS 10 waveguide and PE sells the Eminence Delta 10 used in the Fusion 10.

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/speake...waveguide.html

You can even get the Fusion 10 flatpack....

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/denovo...flat-pack.html

The only thing left is the DNA205 B&C compression driver, it is used in the 1099 so maybe Erich can hook you up with a pair of them.

Now Tux, the designer of the Fusion 10, 1099 and others loves the SEOS 10 crossed at 1,300 Hz to the B&C DE250--the same compression driver used in the 88 Special. Now that would be an interesting design, sort of a Fusion 10+. Drop the crossover point from 1,450Hz to 1,300Hz and use the DE250 with the SEOS 10. The DE250 (DNA360) is not inexpensive but does provide the love with the 88 Special. It is also available from PE and many other vendors so no supply line hassles.

I'd contact Erich about the F10 flatpacks (if desired) the SEOS 10 and DNA205 compression driver availability and roll your own. Won't hurt to ask--good luck! :)

Erich H 01-29-2019 03:50 PM

Some of the kits that had been around for 6-7 years just rarely got built any more. I think in all of 2018 there were 4-6 Fusion-10/12's shipped. The minimum order for me from Parts Express is sets of 10 which at that rate would sit here for a couple years. :(

But I could count up the remaining flat packs on the Fusion-10 and order another 10 kits from PE if needed.

Rcris 01-29-2019 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 57520576)
Some of the kits that had been around for 6-7 years just rarely got built any more. I think in all of 2018 there were 4-6 Fusion-10/12's shipped. The minimum order for me from Parts Express is sets of 10 which at that rate would sit here for a couple years. :(

But I could count up the remaining flat packs on the Fusion-10 and order another 10 kits from PE if needed.

Hi Eric
Are Htm6 going to be available in near future? its not on site anymore .


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