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post #1 of 294 Old 01-21-2019, 04:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Upcoming products at DiySoundGroup

Erich posted an update. Looks like some good stuff heading our way:

JANUARY 20, 2019
There were some requests for a cheaper version of the HTM models since the Deltalites increased in price. Eminence allowed us to make a couple small changes to their Beta-10 and Beta-12 woofers and after testing we decided they'd work great for these new designs. There's also an 8" version using a Celestion woofer. The designs are done and I'll be getting photos and product pages up very soon, probably called the HT series. There will also be a dual 8" woofer center channel for the cheaper HT line and possibly a dual 10" woofer center channel as well.

This week I'll be listing a powerful 'Buy Out' 15" subwoofer made by Eminence. It works in sealed boxes but will put out a lot of bass in ported boxes as small as 4cuft. It will actually beat many 18" sealed subs in the same cabinet size. They'd also make incredible midbass modules, but might be overkill for that. I'll be putting up specs and recommended box sizes this week. I don't have a huge number of these, but there were enough that it made sense to get them for the DIY guys to use.

There's a big DIY community project that was started about 4 years ago on the AVS forum. The goal was making top of the line coaxial speakers. I'll get some more information posted about this project, but the good news is that the 12" and 15" models are complete and manufactured. Actual speaker designs were started a little while ago and should be ready in a couple months (or sooner). Click here if you haven't seen the project.

The designer of the 1099 ( a.k.a - TuxedoCivic) worked on a high end 3 way speaker that uses a Motus 8" woofer, Morel midrange, and a big Fountek ribbon. That design is complete and I'll be getting the kit listed in about a month along with his Life 5 design.

If you've been waiting for me to put the Fusion-8 (Alchemy) speaker kits back on the site, I'll try to get them back up this week. There aren't any flat packs for those right now and I'm not sure if more will be made up.

Important Reminder: If you have ideas for new speaker kits, or wish there was something on the site that isn't there, please send me an email to let me know.
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post #2 of 294 Old 01-21-2019, 08:02 AM
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Excited for the 15" with the same Celestion CD as the Titan 615lx, looks perfect for robust surrounds.

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post #3 of 294 Old 01-21-2019, 09:56 AM
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seem to remember the fusion 8's were available with a bamboo cabinet back in the day. any chance those will be brought back? what is your opinion on 12/15" coaxials versus fusion-8 for dedicated 2 channel audio?
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post #4 of 294 Old 01-21-2019, 10:04 AM
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seem to remember the fusion 8's were available with a bamboo cabinet back in the day. any chance those will be brought back? what is your opinion on 12/15" coaxials versus fusion-8 for dedicated 2 channel audio?
I would be interested to know about this (coaxials vs fusion-8) as well.

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post #5 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 10:35 AM
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great news!
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post #6 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 01:43 PM
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I would be interested to know about this (coaxials vs fusion-8) as well.
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

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post #7 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

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I believe it's a question of surface area and motor strength. The 15 is barely moving in comparison to the 8s, to produce a given output. With a strong neo motor providing the force there's no sloppiness. And its easier to crossover to massive subwoofer systems.

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post #8 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.

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You forget about motor strength... If the larger woofer has the motor strength to accomodate the heavier mass, then speed really wouldn't be an issue.

If you push something that's 5 pounds with one arm, and push something 10 pounds with both arms using the same amount of force with each arm that you did the 5 pound item, they'll both travel at the same speed.

Physics is an interesting thing indeed.
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post #9 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
I believe it's a question of surface area and motor strength. The 15 is barely moving in comparison to the 8s, to produce a given output. With a strong neo motor providing the force there's no sloppiness. And its easier to crossover to massive subwoofer systems.

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Sloppiness? Yeah, no. It's a physics thing. The larger driver weighs more and is harder to accelerate. When you look at the response curves of any larger woofer they quit puting out maybe in the 2K range or so. The forcing function, described as Fe^jwt, becomes too rapid for the woofer (mass) to respond. Smaller drivers -- teeters, mid-range drivers and even small woofers are going to be faster, more articulate, and integrate in the crossover region better. The right size magnet is the right sized magnet -- material aside.

Again, the larger driver, as you have noted, will play louder -- especially in the lower bass range and might me more dynamic for HT (so that compromise might be OK with the listener, but he is trading one thing for another), but there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

I will also use my setup for music and so I will bias the bass driver of the satellite (basically that's what it is) for smooth integration with the tweeter and more articulate mid-range as opposed to dynamic range, since the dual 8s will give me enough of that to begin with.

I could see others biasing their choice in another direction for their own personal reasons.

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post #10 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
You forget about motor strength... If the larger woofer has the motor strength to accomodate the heavier mass, then speed really wouldn't be an issue.

If you push something that's 5 pounds with one arm, and push something 10 pounds with both arms using the same amount of force with each arm that you did the 5 pound item, they'll both travel at the same speed.

Physics is an interesting thing indeed.
No I did not. ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.
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post #11 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 04:27 PM
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I think if one had the space the 615lx with 6.5" midrange covering 350Hz to 1900Hz would be preferable. The question in my mind is how close to the performance of the 615lx can the 15" coax model get in a box that's only 20" by 20".

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post #12 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
ALL large woofers frequency response Drops off at the high end... Why? Weight. The motors are right sized for the mass in order to generate desirable performance characteristics. In the end any driver will do the same thing -- even a tweeter. Smaller drivers are simply faster at some point on the upper end as compared to a larger driver. Again, you NEVER see a high Fidelity speaker crossing over anything over an 8" driver (and I'd say actually few of those!), and most would be crossed over to a 5 1/4 or 6 1/2" driver. Why? Explained.
I'm not sure that's true. Larger woofers flex more and have higher directivity at higher frequencies. A driver can't be "fast" or "slow" in the sense you're talking. If it was, it would be playing a different frequency. Speed of a driver is dictated by frequency and SPL.
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post #13 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by CrusherW9 View Post
I'm not sure that's true. Larger woofers flex more and have higher directivity at higher frequencies. A driver can't be "fast" or "slow" in the sense you're talking. If it was, it would be playing a different frequency. Speed of a driver is dictated by frequency and SPL.
At the same frequency assuming they are both capable of doing it, then that's probably a fair statement, but you did bring up the other undesirable characteristics of large drivers at high frequencies. In the sense I'm taking about it the smaller driver plays both higher and better at the higher frequencies. It's faster in that sense. While the larger driver is tapering off, getting beamy and breaking up, the smaller driver goes up in a predictable and more stable (theoretically for sure and mostly usually practically so) way. That means the smaller driver will almost always (yes that's a powerful word) mesh better with the high frequency driver.

I get why someone would go there, but one would fully expect a 12-15" driver mated to a horn, tweeter, or wave guide to sound less musical... fully.

So personally, and we all have both different priories and preferences, I would never mate a high frequency driver with anything bigger than an 8.
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post #14 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 05:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
...there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.
I never heard anyone say that the Fusion 15 or Fusion 12 weren't high fidelity speakers. I'm sure there are others.
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post #15 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 05:33 PM
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I never heard anyone say that the Fusion 15 or Fusion 12 weren't high fidelity speakers. I'm sure there are others.
Okay I'll say it they are not high Fidelity speakers. they're home theater speakers and I'm sure they do what they do just fine, but they are not high end high Fidelity speakers by any stretch of the imagination. My opinion.
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post #16 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/r...r#.XEfKFaROnDs

QED.
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post #17 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Maybe it's HT verses listening to music, but I would personally much rather have (2) 8s over the midbass and up into the crossover, instead of a huge 12 or 15 in woofer. The coaxial speakers are, or could be more dynamic, but physics-wise, I'm just not sure how they could be faster or more detailed than the much lighter 8"ers.
You do realize the 8's in the Fusion-8 crossover nearly an octave higher then woofer in the Fusion-15 right? Technically if you view this as crossover point vs. cone diameter they are roughly the same.
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post #18 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
but there isn't a high Fidelity loudspeaker made that crosses a tweeter with a 15, 12, or even a 10" driver.
Tannoy disagrees with you: https://www.tannoy.com/Categories/Ta...oogtrans(en|en)
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post #20 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Okay I'll say it they are not high Fidelity speakers. they're home theater speakers and I'm sure they do what they do just fine, but they are not high end high Fidelity speakers by any stretch of the imagination. My opinion.
I think you are confused,

This is the DIY forum, not the 2 channel forum--you clicked on the wrong link. Just trying to be helpful.

If you desire to learn about how speakers, crossovers, different speaker designs and how to improve not only speaker quality but to get it to work properly in your room--this is the right place. If the object of your game is to parrot speaker mythology spewed over the ages and to get people to side on your belief system...wrong room!

Not often we get a audiophile troll in the DIY forum... if you desire to educate us on your opinion, start your own thread so to not screw up the OP discussion.
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post #21 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 07:27 PM
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Conversely. . .02

what if the room isn't a high end fidelity room, or, similarly, a HT space . .

Many are here for proven value, performance, charts, even talking /email to the guy, usually not a CSR, who built/tested/ stands by HIS speaker that you can have confidence in, as a start.

you won't get the flowery and subjective smear /sell job
my favorite: Flabby bass
the blessing of modern advertising has bestowed an amazingly imaginative descriptive repertoire into the field of acoustic fidelity . . JS

what's your favorite?

then learn to add, as budget and other factors allow.

optimizing whichever REQ, Sub and multiple Sub EQ / Integration , mastering REW
and discover the fun and (decorative) challenge of first echelon Room Treatment, side wall and ceiling reflections, corner traps

The details and clarity revealed for me with a simple pair of HTM6's is for a small room, rediscovering things I've played to but really didn't take time to hear all that's going on. .
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post #22 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 07:45 PM
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Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).

I also get you on the, higher crossover and the 8" driver, but I'm up agaist that one too because I don't feel comfortable going any smaller and crossing over to the subs I've got our I would. Of course everything is a compromise unless there isn't much of a budget -- I got one so it is what it is. I'm making an HT system, not a sky's the limit audiophile system.

However I will note that if the subs are picking up the bass for the surround speakers and Atmos, do I need really NEED a 15" coxial speaker? Send like you'd be better off at that point to have a 3-way, but just thinking out loud (that never gets you in trouble... Right?)!
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There is a plan to use the larger coaxials in fullrange tower designs which would be ideal for someone who wants a basic 2-channel music system using high sensitivity drivers.

There are benefits to using a larger coaxial other then just maximum output, the biggest is directivity control. Much like a waveguide a larger cone give better pattern control to lower frequencies then a smaller waveguide or coaxial cone would. You also reduce required cone excursion for a given output level, this minimizes the chance of high frequencies modulation due to cone excursions when compared with a smaller coaxial at similar output levels.
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post #24 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).
They've been done for decades. They're becoming less common because companies know a big speaker costs a lot more to design, build, package, and ship. And that really holds true when they're trying to maximize their dollar on speakers shipped in a container to/from other countries. So big companies have quite a few incentives to push for smaller and smaller speakers.

There's also a lot of good info here and a couple other forums that explain the benefits of a big 2 way with a low crossover point. I stink at explaining things, so I won't even try.
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post #25 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
Conversely. . .02

what if the room isn't a high end fidelity room, or, similarly, a HT space . .

Many are here for proven value, performance, charts, even talking /email to the guy, usually not a CSR, who built/tested/ stands by HIS speaker that you can have confidence in, as a start.

you won't get the flowery and subjective smear /sell job
my favorite: Flabby bass
the blessing of modern advertising has bestowed an amazingly imaginative descriptive repertoire into the field of acoustic fidelity . . JS

what's your favorite?

then learn to add, as budget and other factors allow.

optimizing whichever REQ, Sub and multiple Sub EQ / Integration , mastering REW
and discover the fun and (decorative) challenge of first echelon Room Treatment, side wall and ceiling reflections, corner traps

The details and clarity revealed for me with a simple pair of HTM6's is for a small room, rediscovering things I've played to but really didn't take time to hear all that's going on. .
I think this is the elephant in the room! So many rooms are pretty bad -- mine included, that I pretty much finally gave up pursuing that elusive perfect sound in any case. As an engineer, I realize that almost every single thing we so is a compromise of some kind. I have relegated my extreme 2-channel audiophile system to virtual pipe organ duty in the formal living room and am now striving for a reasonable HT system in the family room (catch that not any of my rooms would be considered ideal!), which, in the end, I'll get more use out of, since I have little time to sit down and listen critically anyway.

The other truth be told is I don't have a dedicated HT room so the box size becomes a factor -- you can only get so many boxes of a certain size past STMBO. The volt 6s are a good size to sneak in, as is the fusion 8 center (no AT screen here!) and the cinema 8s -- they have a form factor that the larger drivers can't meet. If I and the space, the dedicated HT room, the AT screen, and the budget, I'd be looking at the 1099s! (of course -- they got some midrange!!).
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post #26 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 10:13 PM
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"'Tis a Puzzlement": The elephant in the room is .. the room.
who knew?
almost a Zen Mobius Koan. . .

we do take this stuff (perhaps a bit too) seriously . .

virtual pipe organ duty ?

heard this one? just f'kn awesome. enjoy. also, a space with a true RT60

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post #27 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 10:41 PM
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FYI and FTR

that sounds better in stereo with just the HTM6's , and subs

Try this one also, that clarinet is so huge, voices clear and distinct for 4 part harmony

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post #28 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 10:42 PM
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@kennyandersen

"'Tis a Puzzlement": The elephant in the room is .. the room.
who knew?
almost a Zen Mobius Koan. . .

we do take this stuff (perhaps a bit too) seriously . .

virtual pipe organ duty ?

heard this one? just f'kn awesome. enjoy. also, a space with a true RT60

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHNL...&index=50&t=0s
Nice... Uh, he's a fair chunk better'n me! I play some in church out of necessity.

I bought a full-sized AGO-compliant organ that had been hit by lightning. The internals we too far gone to fix so I gutted it, stuck in some midi boards what go into a sound card and have it set up with Grande Orgue, which is a free VPO (virtual pipe organ) software. I'm still running the default organ but I've downloaded some other organs to try, I just need to quit working 60 hours/wk (been doing that for over a year and a half straight!) So I have time to do hobby stuff. The pedal board still has a couple of little details to take care of but it works good enough to practice on. It will be going out to an MTM satellite with all Dynaudio: Esotar tweeters and 150mm drivers with (4) 30W100s in some Sono tubes. Did take the wife's collectible plates!
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post #29 of 294 Old 01-22-2019, 11:03 PM
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makes me miss a radio show called "Gee Dad"

Spoiler!


perhaps you know it. . .

back to the new products - waiting to see them
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post #30 of 294 Old 01-23-2019, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennyandersen View Post
Relax -- just busting some chops! Let's just say mixing such large bass drivers with high frequency driver isn't particularly common and it ain't my snotty audiophile style (it's a fair Cop!).
Eric made some good points why you don't see them, but you also need to understand that ... just because you 'rarely' see them doesn't translate to anything to do with fidelity. Correlation does not equate causation.


Hypothetically:


The OEM sells products, the 15" is better in everyway than their 8" version but the man doesn't want a big 15" in their room and goes with the smaller version. Understandable, most people just want sound, if they were truly suspicious of sound quality than there would be no sound bars. Now with the 15" model they were set to make the bulk of their money, the 8" was their introductory maybe even loss leader. What is an OEM to do? Sell you on a bunch of hog wash to let you know that those 8" drivers are somehow better than the 15" version and up the price.


Size and cost sells, snake oil makes them more expensive. **** there's an $8,000 5-channel/150watt amp being praised on the front page!
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