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post #1 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 05:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Gain issues with NX6000D

Hey guys haven’t some issues setting the gain properly on my NX6000D. My setup is a Marantz sr7012 single sub output going into a mini dsp HD. Port 1 on the mini goes to my NX6000D and port 2 goes to my fv25hp. Connected to the NX6000D is a UXL-18 sub in a ever so slightly smaller than a mini Marty enclosure.

Process:
Unplug all speakers.
Play very heavy bass movies such as the intro to ready player one at reference. Turn the attenuation knob on the NX6000D all the way up.

Doing so causes input clipping around -15db much earlier than expecting. I then go into the mini dsp and turn down the channel to ensure that the input clipping is corrected. This results in a -11db setting for the output channel used by the NX6000D. This seems quite excessive.

Wouldn’t adjusting the attenuation knob on the front be the exact same as reducing the output in the mini dsp? Which is preferred?

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong if anything? Help would be greatly appreciated!!


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post #2 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 06:05 AM
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What are your sub trims? You might want to lower them a bit to give your AVR more voltage headroom and reduce the level going to the MiniDSP.

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post #3 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 06:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
What are your sub trims? You might want to lower them a bit to give your AVR more voltage headroom and reduce the level going to the MiniDSP.


Everything is set to zero. This is also pre Audyssey and pre REW. I’m trying to gain match the two subs but before I move them back into their location I want to make sure I am setting the gain properly on the NX6000D. Just seems odd to clip so early.


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post #4 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Everything is set to zero. This is also pre Audyssey and pre REW. I’m trying to gain match the two subs but before I move them back into their location I want to make sure I am setting the gain properly on the NX6000D. Just seems odd to clip so early.
In any case, I'd start with lowering your sub trim significantly (at least down to -6). This gives the AVR and the MiniDSP more headroom, and so it's highly preferable to lowering the signal later in the chain.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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post #5 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Gain issues with NX6000D

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
In any case, I'd start with lowering your sub trim significantly (at least down to -6). This gives the AVR and the MiniDSP more headroom, and so it's highly preferable to lowering the signal later in the chain.


I understand what you are saying but I don’t quite understand the reasoning. If I am gain matching the subs by running by setting them as high as they go and then reducing the output using PEQ in the mini dsp to create a flat bass graph then running Audyssey I don’t understand what reducing the trim in the receiver will do unless it is done at the end of the calibration process not the beginning. @LTD02 do you mind sharing your experience with this?


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post #6 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 06:49 AM
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Reducing the sub trim doesn't affect your ability to level match, and when you run Audyssey you will end up with a different sub trim, but it's still a good idea for this purpose since you're pushing things hard as part of this process and you don't want any risk of clipping your AVR or clipping the MiniDSP.

The fact that you had to reduce your level by 11dB to eliminate input clipping on the amp should tell you that your voltage before that point in the signal chain is way too high. Sure, you can lower it in the MiniDSP or using the attenuation knobs on the amp, but you want your sub trim in the negatives at the end of the day, and it greatly reduces the risk of clipping earlier in the chain, so start there and then adjust further if necessary.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
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post #7 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Reducing the sub trim doesn't affect your ability to level match, and when you run Audyssey you will end up with a different sub trim, but it's still a good idea for this purpose since you're pushing things hard as part of this process and you don't want any risk of clipping your AVR or clipping the MiniDSP.



The fact that you had to reduce your level by 11dB to eliminate input clipping on the amp should tell you that your voltage before that point in the signal chain is way too high. Sure, you can lower it in the MiniDSP or using the attenuation knobs on the amp, but you want your sub trim in the negatives at the end of the day, and it greatly reduces the risk of clipping earlier in the chain, so start there and then adjust further if necessary.


Ok I will adjust it in the AVR to -6 and play around with it for a while. What still is odd to me is why is there any input clipping at all.


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post #8 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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So I set the avr ro minus 7 and it still has input clipping with the attenuation knob all the way up. This just doesn’t seem right.


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post #9 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
Ok I will adjust it in the AVR to -6 and play around with it for a while. What still is odd to me is why is there any input clipping at all.
It's not surprising at all with sub trim at 0 and the amp knobs at max. Input sensitivity on the amp is only 0.775V.

BTW, the MiniDSP is rated at 2V max. It can accept 4V in if you set the input jumper that way but then it just reduces the level by 3dB, so you're better off leaving the jumper at 2V, reducing the sub trim, and gaining headroom there as well.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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Last edited by aron7awol; 01-27-2019 at 07:21 AM.
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post #10 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
So I set the avr ro minus 7 and it still has input clipping with the attenuation knob all the way up. This just doesn’t seem right.
I didn't expect it to completely eliminate it. You said you had to reduce level by 11dB to eliminate it, and I only suggested you drop your sub trim 6dB, so I expected about 5dB to remain.

This is when you would normally adjust the amp knobs to attenuate the input signal.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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post #11 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 10:43 AM
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Gain issues with NX6000D

The trim and attenuation settings are changing how much voltage goes from one device to the next. Given the prior posts I would suggest that the first step is to adjust the AVR so you don’t clip the input of the MiniDSP, and ignore the amp. depending on the voltage of you AVR and DSP unit you might need the other jumper in the DSP. As said already start by targeting the AVR trim somewhere in the range of -6 to -11. Once that is done you should have a clean signal going to the DSP, and then you will need to go through the same basic procedure from the DSP to the amp input. Keep all the software gains at zero at this point. Start with the amp attenuators knob fully clockwise, because that will ensure that the DSP signal is maximized going into the amp. From there you should be able run room correction or iterate with the settings.

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post #12 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone I wanted to post up my process so others may chime in and tel me I’m an idiot haha.

Ok so I did some playing around so I can better explain what’s going on. Basically I need to get to the point of being able to run Audyssey and to do so I want to feed Audyssey a flat preprocessed graph of both subs EQed to be flat. To ensure one sub isn’t carrying the load and split the output the best thing to do it gain match the subs using pink noise I can go about this two main ways from what I see. I can either set the gain on the sub connected to the NX6000D as high as I can that will ensure that the input to the minidsp and the input to the NX6000D does not clip. This can be done a couple different ways also. The first way is to play a 0db square wave in rew with the volume at 0 and everything unplugged. On my Marantz sr7012 it requires a trim setting of -11 on my sub output to stop the minidsp from every clipping the input. Then I look at how the NX6000D is doing. It is still clipping the input so I then use the attenuation knob to further decrease the input to the NX6000D to ensure it never can clip. When finished I put on the opening scene from ready player one with nothing connected and watch the clip lights. If it made it through the scene without clipping I then increase the gain inside the NX6000D to use all the power possible such that the input is slightly higher than the output. Unless I messed up this is the absolute limit the amp can be set to. Measure the sub sweep in rew. Move the Rythmik into the exact same location and increase the gain knob until getting almost the same reading. Move both subs back and measure each individually. Measure both together and ensure positive summation and correct phasing etc. if all looks good generate dsp filters take one last measurement in rew and to verify expected graph is what is measured. If all is good run Audyssey.



Now the issue I’m running into is getting to the point where I can run Audyssey. Since I have to reduce bass by so much to stop input clipping my subs are extremely quiet. If you hear it you would not believe I have 2 15” and a single 18” sub. You may guess I have a single 12 at best. I realize running Audyssey will help to some extent but audibly you can tell there is no point in wasting your time bc something just isn’t right. I can bump the bass from -11 on the avr back up to around -5 and I sounds much better and I would be ready to run Audyssey bc while I can get Audyssey to read green and begin to run the setup since I am limited to using the -11 sub setting to ensure I do not clip the minidsp I need to for Audyssey to run at a higher DB than the required 75. To ensure I stay at -11 I need at least 86db and since I like it to be around 7db higher than where it is now I need to basically run Audyssey with a sub level of around 93db which would max my trim to -12 and then increase it back to the -11. All in all this seems crazy complicated just to have two quality subs running lol



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post #13 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 02:40 PM
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When you run Audyssey, it won't be using the sub trim you set for gain matching, so it won't affect your ability to give Audyssey the 75dB it wants. What I do is run Audyssey, let it set the trim to whatever it sets it to, and then drop the trim and increase the gain on the subs afterward to optimize the signal chain and adjust the subs to the hotness I want.

Lowering the signal chain so that it doesn't clip the MiniDSP won't prevent you from getting max output from your amp. After all, 2V is higher than the input sensitivity of the amp.

Are you using negative high shelves to shape your response? That's one thing that will lower the level.

Is there a reason you are gain matching rather than level matching? I can see some reason to gain match when subs are identical, but if they have different capabilities, gain matching doesn't make them run out of headroom at the same time, which seems to be what you're trying to achieve. Do you have set locations for the two subs yet? How far away are each of them?

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post #14 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
When you run Audyssey, it won't be using the sub trim you set for gain matching, so it won't affect your ability to give Audyssey the 75dB it wants. What I do is run Audyssey, let it set the trim to whatever it sets it to, and then drop the trim and increase the gain on the subs afterward to optimize the signal chain and adjust the subs to the hotness I want.



Lowering the signal chain so that it doesn't clip the MiniDSP won't prevent you from getting max output from your amp. After all, 2V is higher than the input sensitivity of the amp.



Are you using negative high shelves to shape your response? That's one thing that will lower the level.



Is there a reason you are gain matching rather than level matching? I can see some reason to gain match when subs are identical, but if they have different capabilities, gain matching doesn't make them run out of headroom at the same time, which seems to be what you're trying to achieve. Do you have set locations for the two subs yet? How far away are each of them?


They way you describe Audyssey wanting the 75Db is exactly what I was saying. Audyssey wants 75Db so mathematically since I know -11 is where my trim needs to be and I like to run it hot another day 8 dB by running Audyssey at 94 dB and then putting the trim to -11 should in theory give you the same effect. Unless I’m missing something which is always possible haha.

Yes I have an hs12 set per LTD02 method of forcing the filter below 20. Mine is set to -6

The only reason I am gain matching is bc all of the reading I have done on the two types (gain and level matching) most all of them say to use gain matching so I simply obliged. Really nothing more than that.

Yes I have a location for all subs and like it or not the wife asked the the sub I built match for symmetry so basically has to stay where they are. The subs are about 6-7 feet apart maybe more I’ll post up a pic




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post #15 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 05:08 PM
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What I'm saying is you don't really have to worry about what you want the trim to be, because you can always change the trim and gains after you run Audyssey.

With both subs apparently equidistant and both quite capable, I would level-match them. Trying to gain-match subs that aren't identical doesn't really make sense to me.

After you level-match manually and EQ the subs how you want them:

1. Run Audyssey sub level where it's looking for ~75dB.
2. Turn one sub on and adjust gain until it's 75dB.
3. Turn the first sub off and turn the other on and adjust gain until it's 75dB.
4. Turn the first sub back on. It should show something close to 81dB.
5. Finish Audyssey calibration.
6. Adjust sub trim to whatever you want it to be.
7. Adjust gain on the subs to the level of hotness you want, again level-matching.

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post #16 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
What I'm saying is you don't really have to worry about what you want the trim to be, because you can always change the trim and gains after you run Audyssey.



With both subs apparently equidistant and both quite capable, I would level-match them. Trying to gain-match subs that aren't identical doesn't really make sense to me.



After you level-match manually and EQ the subs how you want them:



1. Run Audyssey sub level where it's looking for ~75dB.

2. Turn one sub on and adjust gain until it's 75dB.

3. Turn the first sub off and turn the other on and adjust gain until it's 75dB.

4. Turn the first sub back on. It should show something close to 81dB.

5. Finish Audyssey calibration.

6. Adjust sub trim to whatever you want it to be.

7. Adjust gain on the subs to the level of hotness you want, again level-matching.


Thank you for the support I will definitely give this a try tomorrow after work.

When level matching though it seems I will have to worry about the input clipping still or is the process to set the trim to -11 which eliminates input trim then level match to say something like 85 dB using -13bd each (or do you have a recommendation on sub level pink noise I should level match to?) then useEQ files to level base and then begin step 1.

Also when you say adjust gain you are speaking about the gain inside the software correct? Leaving the attenuation knob at 100%? Or use the knob to adjust gain?


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post #17 of 47 Old 01-27-2019, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
When level matching though it seems I will have to worry about the input clipping still or is the process to set the trim to -11 which eliminates input trim then level match to say something like 85 dB using -13bd each (or do you have a recommendation on sub level pink noise I should level match to?) then useEQ files to level base and then begin step 1.

Also when you say adjust gain you are speaking about the gain inside the software correct? Leaving the attenuation knob at 100%? Or use the knob to adjust gain?
You said you wanted to pre-EQ the subs so that Audyssey would see a flat response. In order to do that, you're going to have to time-align and level-match as part of this pre-EQ process. For that purpose, you probably don't really need to worry about clipping because you shouldn't be pushing them too hard, but there's no harm in setting your sub trim to -11 just to be safe. I assume you will be using REW or similar for this purpose.

Once the subs are time-aligned, level-matched, and EQed, you're ready to run Audyssey. If the sub level check is already happy with the levels the subs are at, then just move forward through calibration. Otherwise, follow the steps I outlined in my previous post to stay level-matched while giving Audyssey a level it's happy with. When I say adjust gains, I always mean using the knobs. You should use the knobs first, and only use digital gains if the knobs can't get you where you want to be. Now you should be running the normal Audyssey calibration at this point.

Once Audyssey is done, you are calibrated, and still time-aligned, EQed, and level-matched. The only thing that remains is to run your subs hot, if you so desire, which you said you do. Now just manually level-match the subs again to whatever level of hotness you want them at, again using the knobs. At that point, you are good to go.

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post #18 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 08:28 AM
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+1 for this thread.. This is exactly where I'm at in the process, and have the exact same 'issues' with literally identical gear the OP is describing.. Thank you @superkyle for starting this thread , and a HUGE Thank You to @aron7awol for clearly explaining the steps.



I too have been struggling with the setup over the entire past 3 days trying to get mine setup as well.



Now if I can only make it come together as it's described.

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post #19 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 09:01 AM
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Gain issues with NX6000D

I just posted a new thread dealing with preamp levels in this forum.

My recommendation (take it or leave it but has worked well for me.)

Take the Mini out of line. Go direct AVR to amp. This is a 0dBu amp, not +4 (probably because it’s marketed for home use) so you’ll need to cut your 2V level down by about half (-3db in theory). Put pink noise through the AVR to the sub output. Use a higher than normal LP Xover than you would normally use. Set the level at 0 (ref). Run the signal straight through the amp. Back your gains at the amp back just slightly from 0 (3 o’clock) to add a bit of headroom. Now, adjust the sub level (trim not master volume) out of the AVR so you’re tickling the clip lights, and then back it down a notch until you’re not hitting them. This will in theory give you the correct baseline plus a bit of conservative room. If you go above AVR volume 0 (Denon will push to +20 I think?) just be wary of your clipping to the amp. Not recommended but for maybe transient setting.

Now put your mini dsp in line. No processing level at zero to begin. Keep everything else the same. Now, adjust the input gain and level on the Mini to give you the same tickling the clips result you got first time around. Then back it down the notch or so to make them go out. Now you’ve in theory at least have a baseline gain structure to work from. Remember if you put a hefty Low Shelf or gains in the PEQ from the mini, you’re going to need to back the over all level down a bit, but mostly you should be cutting in the DSP and it normally doesn’t change the overall gain much.

Hope this helps. You can also always measure voltage if you have the tools to be more exact.




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If you want 2 different subs gain matched so neither runs out of output before the other then you’ll need to find out at what point they each max out. I’d run progressively hotter sweeps in REW until the output compressed for each sub individually. You have to keep the input signal the exact same for each sub and then they’d be gain matched. At the end of the day you’d want to end up with no clipped signals at any part of the signal chain and be able to reach your desired spl for the max volume you listen at with whatever house curve you end up running. You have highly capable subs so don’t destroy your house in the process
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+1 for this thread.. This is exactly where I'm at in the process, and have the exact same 'issues' with literally identical gear the OP is describing.. Thank you @superkyle for starting this thread , and a HUGE Thank You to @aron7awol for clearly explaining the steps.



I too have been struggling with the setup over the entire past 3 days trying to get mine setup as well.



Now if I can only make it come together as it's described.


Glad it can help other as there is a lot of information spread out and some really good write ups by various members but the problem I ran into is one member would say this is better another would say this is better and it makes it very hard for a person that is new to this type of stuff to weed out the incorrect processes from the effective processes.


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post #22 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
I just posted a new thread dealing with preamp levels in this forum.

My recommendation (take it or leave it but has worked well for me.)

Take the Mini out of line. Go direct AVR to amp. This is a 0dBu amp, not +4 (probably because it’s marketed for home use) so you’ll need to cut your 2V level down by about half (-3db in theory). Put pink noise through the AVR to the sub output. Use a higher than normal LP Xover than you would normally use. Set the level at 0 (ref). Run the signal straight through the amp. Back your gains at the amp back just slightly from 0 (3 o’clock) to add a bit of headroom. Now, adjust the sub level (trim not master volume) out of the AVR so you’re tickling the clip lights, and then back it down a notch until you’re not hitting them. This will in theory give you the correct baseline plus a bit of conservative room. If you go above AVR volume 0 (Denon will push to +20 I think?) just be wary of your clipping to the amp. Not recommended but for maybe transient setting.

Now put your mini dsp in line. No processing level at zero to begin. Keep everything else the same. Now, adjust the input gain and level on the Mini to give you the same tickling the clips result you got first time around. Then back it down the notch or so to make them go out. Now you’ve in theory at least have a baseline gain structure to work from. Remember if you put a hefty Low Shelf or gains in the PEQ from the mini, you’re going to need to back the over all level down a bit, but mostly you should be cutting in the DSP and it normally doesn’t change the overall gain much.

Hope this helps. You can also always measure voltage if you have the tools to be more exact.




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I think I meantime’s doing something like this at some point to another member and he told me it was best to not alter the input signal in the minidsp but rather only the avr. I wish I had a better explanation why but just some food for thought. Maybe someone else will chime in and provide some insight to this method.


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post #23 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 11:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bluenova View Post
If you want 2 different subs gain matched so neither runs out of output before the other then you’ll need to find out at what point they each max out. I’d run progressively hotter sweeps in REW until the output compressed for each sub individually. You have to keep the input signal the exact same for each sub and then they’d be gain matched. At the end of the day you’d want to end up with no clipped signals at any part of the signal chain and be able to reach your desired spl for the max volume you listen at with whatever house curve you end up running. You have highly capable subs so don’t destroy your house in the process


I guess I’m not looking for absolute maximum output just run the subs about 8db hot with the option to up the subs a bit to “show off” occasionally. That’s why I’m going to follow this method that was posted for me. Mainly let’s me run my subs as hot as I want but the draw back is not being able to easily turn them up or down in the AVr since that would risk clipping.

Big issue for me is I like to run sub hotter for music since the bass output is typically much lower than a movies bass output.


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I guess I’m not looking for absolute maximum output just run the subs about 8db hot with the option to up the subs a bit to “show off” occasionally. That’s why I’m going to follow this method that was posted for me. Mainly let’s me run my subs as hot as I want but the draw back is not being able to easily turn them up or down in the AVr since that would risk clipping.
I just want to clarify that it's not the method that will prevent you from turning your sub trims up, it's just the nature of your signal chain and what you are asking of your subs. Generally, if someone is having trouble setting up their signal chain in a way that is safe from clipping yet still gives them the output levels they desire, that's usually a good hint that they need more sub.

The method I posted for you was just really just the simplest way I can think of to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish and optimize your signal chain to prevent clipping at the early stages where clipping could really hurt you.
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I just want to clarify that it's not the method that will prevent you from turning your sub trims up, it's just the nature of your signal chain and what you are asking of your subs. Generally, if someone is having trouble setting up their signal chain in a way that is safe from clipping yet still gives them the output levels they desire, that's usually a good hint that they need more sub.



The method I posted for you was just really just the simplest way I can think of to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish and optimize your signal chain to prevent clipping at the early stages where clipping could really hurt you.


I would hope I have plenty sub but I do reduce the output from the subs by around 10 dB after rew calibrations to balance out a null that I have. That certainly takes an effect on the output but typically still plenty.

I appreciate simple but I also would like to know the “proper” method to do some reasons dB understand how I can get all the output from my system as I paid for. I’ve read all of the guides outlining proper rew setup and subwoofer phase ing and time delay etc. I feel pretty confident in that but for some reason this gain structure is very hard for me to wrap my head around. While I certainly do not want to take it to the level of using an o-scope since I do know own one personally I would like to create a setup I can be proud of and sit back knowing I have done everything I can to optimize the sound output short of having a dedicated theater room which will be a must for my next house.


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Gain issues with NX6000D

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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
I appreciate simple but I also would like to know the “proper” method to do some reasons dB understand how I can get all the output from my system as I paid for.


I gave this to you. So did the previous Member who laid out another similar useful method. If MiniDSP puts a gain control in a processor (most basic attribute of one) and then tells you not to use it, that’s a whole different conversation.

The method I presented is that used and employed when measuring equipment isn’t available and is a first hand method used in FOH and Monitors on a National Touring Rig, to which I was trained in the field some years ago. It’s boiled down and simplified but that’s the method used and it works here. I can write a novel here on all the ‘whys’ but not seeing its necesssary.

Bottom line, before you do any processing, combining and any other HT methods for sub integration, you need to establish and set your baseline gains in the chain. Build the foundation (gain structure), then put up walls and decide on window treatments and paint (processing, combining, etc).

If you don’t want to use the gain that MiniDSP provides for you, to tweak (that is what we’re doing here we’re not adding 18db gain to something to band aid something else), which is a bad idea, then you will set only the gain on the sub output of the AVR, which is only step one of the two step process I described. Just be aware, that if the MiniDSP is adding gain to it in its unity state, and causing a higher dBu at the amp than ideal (getting all you paid for out of the amp as you said), then you’re going to improperly adjust for that in the AVR, so instead of -4db baseline on the sub gain you may need (given the amp is a little more than half that of the AVR output) -8db to attenuate it to account for the unity gain of the MiniDSP processor. Then you’re in a position where if your Audyssey needs to cut the level because it’s hot at reference, then it will only have say 4 more dB to do so (assuming it can attenuate up to -12db) and you may run out of attenuation and it will err out, and you’re way down low in the S/N world coming out of the AVR, not good for other reasons.

Anyway good luck, it’s a hobby, so at the end of the day, you do you!








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post #27 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Gain issues with NX6000D

Quote:
Originally Posted by FOHTech View Post
I gave this to you. So did the previous Member who laid out another similar useful method. If MiniDSP puts a gain control in a processor (most basic attribute of one) and then tells you not to use it, that’s a whole different conversation.

The method I presented is that used and employed when measuring equipment isn’t available and is a first hand method used in FOH and Monitors on a National Touring Rig, to which I was trained in the field some years ago. It’s boiled down and simplified but that’s the method used and it works here. I can write a novel here on all the ‘whys’ but not seeing its necesssary.

Bottom line, before you do any processing, combining and any other HT methods for sub integration, you need to establish and set your baseline gains in the chain. Build the foundation (gain structure), then put up walls and decide on window treatments and paint (processing, combining, etc).

If you don’t want to use the gain that MiniDSP provides for you, to tweak (that is what we’re doing here we’re not adding 18db gain to something to band aid something else), which is a bad idea, then you will set only the gain on the sub output of the AVR, which is only step one of the two step process I described. Just be aware, that if the MiniDSP is adding gain to it in its unity state, and causing a higher dBu at the amp than ideal (getting all you paid for out of the amp as you said), then you’re going to improperly adjust for that in the AVR, so instead of -4db baseline on the sub gain you may need (given the amp is a little more than half that of the AVR output) -8db to attenuate it to account for the unity gain of the MiniDSP processor. Then you’re in a position where if your Audyssey needs to cut the level because it’s hot at reference, then it will only have say 4 more dB to do so (assuming it can attenuate up to -12db) and you may run out of attenuation and it will err out, and you’re way down low in the S/N world coming out of the AVR, not good for other reasons.

Anyway good luck, it’s a hobby, so at the end of the day, you do you!








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Hey by no means what I saying what you said was incorrect at all. What I am trying to showcase is there are statements that makes this stuff very confusing. There are very well respected members that have different methods. Take a look at the post below for example. Certainly there is a reason for this method.



In this post it tell me a newbie that I should have the attenuation knob maxed out. Which has led to input clipping issues that brought me here in the first place. Outside of that method another very respected member did a write up here...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sour...48799682719427

To me that is two conflicting methods but maybe they equate to the same end goal. That I’m not sure about. What I am really reaching out for is to understand these methods and use what I learn to ensure my own system is set properly. I also remember seeing a post by LTD02 saying if you want to attenuate you need to do it earliest in the chain as possible. Can’t remember why but I believe it had to do with signal to noise or something.

All in all I’m not here to really question anyone’s methods but rather to gain input from various methods on why one is correct and one isn’t.


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post #28 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by superkyle View Post
I would hope I have plenty sub but I do reduce the output from the subs by around 10 dB after rew calibrations to balance out a null that I have. That certainly takes an effect on the output but typically still plenty.

I appreciate simple but I also would like to know the “proper” method to do some reasons dB understand how I can get all the output from my system as I paid for. I’ve read all of the guides outlining proper rew setup and subwoofer phase ing and time delay etc. I feel pretty confident in that but for some reason this gain structure is very hard for me to wrap my head around. While I certainly do not want to take it to the level of using an o-scope since I do know own one personally I would like to create a setup I can be proud of and sit back knowing I have done everything I can to optimize the sound output short of having a dedicated theater room which will be a must for my next house.
I agree that you have two very capable subs, and probably enough for what you're asking of them, but as you've noticed, EQ can take a whole lot of headroom from you and potentially force you to stop using cuts and start using some boosts just because you can't afford to lose any more.

There is not a single "proper" method. We could all argue the value of gain-matching vs. level-matching, but gain-matching isn't an exact science, where you have different subs with different limits at different frequencies in different locations of the room with different EQ, so defining where the "limit" of each is, is far from trivial, and somewhat subjective. And at the end of the day, if some potential imbalance between the subs' limits when level-matching is rearing its ugly head with any sort of regularity, you're asking too much of your subs.

As far as setting up a signal chain, there are many different ways to approach it. I didn't choose the simplest method only because it was simple at the expense of its effectiveness. I chose it because it is simple AND effective, or "proper" if that's what you want to call it. The MiniDSP is the voltage bottleneck in your signal chain. If you want to be able to turn your trims up more, then use the 4V input jumper on it and let it cut by 3dB at input. I'm going to check out at this point, I think you have plenty of information and different approaches to get where you need to get. I'm trying not to turn this thread into a long discussion of methods of optimizing gain structure.



@FOHTech
I don't see pink noise through LFE with MV set to reference as anywhere close to a worst-case scenario signal coming out of the AVR. I regularly see transients in normal content that will exceed that level by as much as 10dB or so. Are you still comfortable using it in the manner you suggested?

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post #29 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 02:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree that you have two very capable subs, and probably enough for what you're asking of them, but as you've noticed, EQ can take a whole lot of headroom from you and potentially force you to stop using cuts and start using some boosts just because you can't afford to lose any more.



There is not a single "proper" method. We could all argue the value of gain-matching vs. level-matching, but gain-matching isn't an exact science, where you have different subs with different limits at different frequencies in different locations of the room with different EQ, so defining where the "limit" of each is, is far from trivial, and somewhat subjective. And at the end of the day, if some potential imbalance between the subs' limits when level-matching is rearing its ugly head with any sort of regularity, you're asking too much of your subs.



As far as setting up a signal chain, there are many different ways to approach it. I didn't choose the simplest method only because it was simple at the expense of its effectiveness. I chose it because it is simple AND effective, or "proper" if that's what you want to call it. The MiniDSP is the voltage bottleneck in your signal chain. If you want to be able to turn your trims up more, then use the 4V input jumper on it and let it cut by 3dB at input. I'm going to check out at this point, I think you have plenty of information and different approaches to get where you need to get. I'm trying not to turn this thread into a long discussion of methods of optimizing gain structure.






@FOHTech

I don't see pink noise through LFE with MV set to reference as anywhere close to a worst-case scenario signal coming out of the AVR. I regularly see transients in normal content that will exceed that level by as much as 10dB or so. Are you still comfortable using it in the manner you suggested?


I certainly appreciate it and will be using the method you have outlined for me. Thanks for taking the time and helping me out.

I do have one last question though. In your last post you say different EQ. I was told that despite having two sub outputs that it’s better for apply the EQ to both as a group. Which basically means the two subs use the same EQ. I’m guessing I’m doing this wrong also haha I will say it seems to work well at providing a smooth bass response but maybe there is a better way.


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post #30 of 47 Old 01-28-2019, 05:28 PM
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I certainly appreciate it and will be using the method you have outlined for me. Thanks for taking the time and helping me out.

I do have one last question though. In your last post you say different EQ. I was told that despite having two sub outputs that it’s better for apply the EQ to both as a group. Which basically means the two subs use the same EQ. I’m guessing I’m doing this wrong also haha I will say it seems to work well at providing a smooth bass response but maybe there is a better way.


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I agree with that in general. There are some exceptions, such as a null one of my subs has due to it exciting a resonance in my room. Boosting that freq on that sub just makes the resonance worse with no additional output, so I boost that frequency on my other sub only. Hopefully you don't have any issues like that.

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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
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Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
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