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-   -   Ported or Sealed? (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3049074-ported-sealed.html)

scary1 02-07-2019 10:06 PM

Ported or Sealed?
 
I have a Dayton RSS 390 HO sub in a 3 cube sealed box, with a SA 500 plate amp. It works pretty well for music, but in my open floor plan, is not impressive with movies. I also use a 12" Rythmik in a sealed cab. I am drawing up a design for a box that will fit the room better, and toying with the idea of porting it. I can easily get 4 cubes out of the (odd) shape, and can fit in 2 - 3' ports for a tune of something like 26Hz. My decisions include: Can I stick with the plate amp? Will this setup still work well with music? Will the 3" ports avoid noise? A fall-back would be to buy a longer excursion, lower sensitivity driver, and use more power. I can't make WinIsd work, so would really appreciate any advice given.

Thanks guys

SpinMonster 02-07-2019 10:27 PM

You can pick up 10db at the tuning frequency if you go ported with the same driver and the same amp. Ported is lower distortion because it reduces cone excursion at the same SPL. The trade-off is size.

A bigger driver with more power is optimum but the downside is cost. Look at Stereo Integrity for a HST18 which is a great HT driver. A good amp for it is the Behringer 3000

Russell Burrows 02-08-2019 06:36 AM

Yup ported will get you 10db at port tune however under port tune you can blow your subwoofer with subsonics.Get a behringer nx3000 dsp amplifier for infrasonic filter.
Or better look at unused Attic or unused basement and add at least 2 fi car audio ib318 v2 subwoofers then a month later add 2 more subwoofers then a few months later add an extra behringer nx3000 dsp amplifier and 4 more fi car audio ib318 v2 subwoofers.


I warrant that 8 fi car audio ib318 v2 subwoofers in infinite baffle manifolds plus 2 behringer nx3000 dsp amplifiers will perform good for movies and music.


My humble infinite baffle setup has me rewatching old movies just to see how they sound with improved sound.

RoboAVS 02-08-2019 06:38 AM

I would keep the existing subs as is, you cant change the rythmik and both are fine sealed subs.

You need a ported sub with significant capbility.

Look to DIYSoundgroup, next week he is releasing a low cost, high end buyout driver for roughly $150 shipped.

He will have a cabinet or recommendations for it in the 4cft range.

I highly recommemd this route as it fits what you want very well, a high performace ported sub in a reasonable roughly 4cft box. Another plate amp, or an inuke will do just fine.

Diysoundgroup.com

I am not affiliated.

Other options would be a 12" ultimax in a 4cft box, a 15ultimax in a 6cft box, or if you are in the midwest a wonderful deal from jk7.2 who has 2 4cft ported boxes and some terrific custom 12 drivers for a steal of a price!

I do know jk7.2 but again have no interest in the sale. But i know exactly what he has and its what you want, and he has 2 units for far less than the cost of your ryhtmik...and he even has an amp too.

Eng-399 has VBBS subs, about 6cft, for sale in Chicago area at an amazing price too. Theres nobody i know who builds better, more capable subs. He has sold me some of his and built them for me too, hes the best in the amateur world.

Lots of options but yes must be ported for what you want.

Jk7.2 02-08-2019 07:15 AM

Ported or Sealed?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RoboAVS (Post 57569428)
I would keep the existing subs as is, you cant change the rythmik and both are fine sealed subs.



You need a ported sub with significant capbility.



Look to DIYSoundgroup, next week he is releasing a low cost, high end buyout driver for roughly $150 shipped.



He will have a cabinet or recommendations for it in the 4cft range.



I highly recommemd this route as it fits what you want very well, a high performace ported sub in a reasonable roughly 4cft box. Another plate amp, or an inuke will do just fine.



Diysoundgroup.com



I am not affiliated.



Other options would be a 12" ultimax in a 4cft box, a 15ultimax in a 6cft box, or if you are in the midwest a wonderful deal from jk7.2 who has 2 4cft ported boxes and some terrific custom 12 drivers for a steal of a price!



I do know jk7.2 but again have no interest in the sale. But i know exactly what he has and its what you want, and he has 2 units for far less than the cost of your ryhtmik...and he even has an amp too.



Eng-399 has VBBS subs, about 6cft, for sale in Chicago area at an amazing price too. Theres nobody i know who builds better, more capable subs. He has sold me some of his and built them for me too, hes the best in the amateur world.



Lots of options but yes must be ported for what you want.



I think you meant @JCJetta has those for sale.

Anywho op, go ported if you have the space. Build large cabs, tuned 18 or lower. Your in room extension will be lower then port tune. My graphs show my hst’s in 10cf cabs ported tuned to 18 hit 12hz in my room at 125 dB. But I also have 6 hst’s. And clone amps. It all depends on how far and how fast you wanna go.

scary1 02-08-2019 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk7.2 (Post 57569582)
I think you meant @JCJetta has those for sale.

Anywho op, go ported if you have the space. Build large cabs, tuned 18 or lower. Your in room extension will be lower then port tune. My graphs show my hst’s in 10cf cabs ported tuned to 18 hit 12hz in my room at 125 dB. But I also have 6 hst’s. And clone amps. It all depends on how far and how fast you wanna go.


Since I listen to more music than HT, and want to maintain domestic bliss, I want to keep it near 4 cubes. (although I have a space on the other side of the fireplace where I could fit another one);)

The cost is less of an issue to me than space. I also like quiet amps, so might not like the Berringer. Would a 18" have any advantage over a 15" in that space?

quadryda 02-09-2019 01:21 PM

At the beginning i had 2 poted Subs too, very clean sound- but not really deep too. Ported wos much more better, but now with my tapped horns i am very happy!!!

quadryda 02-09-2019 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadryda (Post 57576718)
At the beginning i had 2 poted Subs too, very clean sound- but not really deep too. Ported wos much more better, but now with my tapped horns i am very happy!!!

Sorry, start with 2 sealed subs !:D

bebb 02-16-2019 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell Burrows (Post 57569420)
Yup ported will get you 10db at port tune however under port tune you can blow your subwoofer with subsonics.Get a behringer nx3000 dsp amplifier for infrasonic filter.

How do you guys figure 10dB? WinISD modeling has never shown this from my experience.

Also, MiniDSP will get you the ability to add high pass filtering to get rid of frequencies below tuning to prevent over excursion of the driver.

nexus99 02-17-2019 12:54 AM

I support the MINIdsp strategy. Very flexible.

I just did a sealed UM18 (with a NU6000) and its nice... but I do want more. 2 Sealed might be enough... but Im trying a GSG Full box for my next swing.

Russell Burrows 02-17-2019 04:05 AM

Corner loading adds plus decibels

scary1 02-19-2019 03:48 PM

Thanks for the advice, guys. I have a few more questions:

If I modify the fan of a NX 3000, will the noise be annoying if I'm sitting 10' from it? I'm just thinking that more power and cab volume would give me more options -- the rabbit hole looms..

Would a 4.3 cubic ft cab be large enough to make a RSS 460 worth the investment?

Assuming I stick with a non DSP plate amp, is a Mini DSP a requirement?

I had planned to tune the cab for around 25 Hz, but several of you think I should go for less than 20Hz. What are the trade-offs in terms of volume in the audible range?


I really appreciate your input; I can do nice cabinet work, but have very limited experience with subs.
Thanks,
Scary

RoboAVS 02-19-2019 03:59 PM

You can sit 1 foot away with a fan mod and have no sound

4.3cft is nice for sealed, for ported i would go much bigger

U need some form of dsp control

scary1 02-19-2019 05:40 PM

Ok. Coming around to the rack mount amp idea. I like the idea of 2 round ports, so I can plug one to get a lower tuning. I can use (2) 3" 11" long for 25Hz and get 17Hz with one plugged. Or using 4" ports 18" long, get 27 and 19Hz. Which would you choose? Would I get port noise with the 3 inchers?:confused:

aron7awol 02-19-2019 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scary1 (Post 57628540)
Ok. Coming around to the rack mount amp idea. I like the idea of 2 round ports, so I can plug one to get a lower tuning. I can use (2) 3" 11" long for 25Hz and get 17Hz with one plugged. Or using 4" ports 18" long, get 27 and 19Hz. Which would you choose? Would I get port noise with the 3 inchers?:confused:

I used to feel the same way about multiple ports, but you're going to end up picking the lower tuning, it's much easier to go with one big port, and one big port will be less susceptible to chuffing.

bebb 02-19-2019 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell Burrows (Post 57615156)
Corner loading adds plus decibels

Regardless of whether sealed or not.

Remy.Alexander 02-25-2019 06:33 AM

Hey i have the HF versions in 3.8FT^ tuned to 18HZ, i have two of them running off a 3000DSP very scary combination

aron7awol 02-25-2019 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell Burrows (Post 57569420)
Yup ported will get you 10db at port tune however under port tune you can blow your subwoofer with subsonics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bebb (Post 57614540)
How do you guys figure 10dB? WinISD modeling has never shown this from my experience.

There isn't a set amount ported will give at tune. It totally depends on enclosure size. For example, my huge ported subs add 19dB at tuning over sealed in the same enclosure. That is reduced to 10dB in a more reasonably sized 10cf box.

scary1 02-25-2019 08:00 AM

I guess I don't fully understand the ins and outs of tuning. For instance, Nick at SI recommends tuning to 30 to 32Hz! He claims the room will get me into the 20's. Granted, that's a different driver than my RSS 390. I don't need to shake the nails out of the sheetrock, just some thud and rumble with HT and good base for music. If I tune for, say 19Hz, what are the trade offs with music?

Spectre55 02-25-2019 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scary1 (Post 57655766)
I guess I don't fully understand the ins and outs of tuning. For instance, Nick at SI recommends tuning to 30 to 32Hz! He claims the room will get me into the 20's. Granted, that's a different driver than my RSS 390. I don't need to shake the nails out of the sheetrock, just some thud and rumble with HT and good base for music. If I tune for, say 19Hz, what are the trade offs with music?


I feel like this is getting overly complicated for you.


What's the cost of a sheet of MDF, $40?



Build yourself a ported box for the 15" driver you have (which is GREAT driver) and use the plate amp. More than enough power for it and it has a HPF at 20 Hz, so if you tune it between 19-25 Hz ish you should be protected against over excursion.


I am not at home right now but I am more than happy to model a ported box for you with this sub and amp later tonight.


I guarantee you will NOT be disappointed going this route.


The only advantage of sealed is space savings. That's it.

impreza276 02-25-2019 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spectre55 (Post 57655870)
I feel like this is getting overly complicated for you.


What's the cost of a sheet of MDF, $40?



Build yourself a ported box for the 15" driver you have (which is GREAT driver) and use the plate amp. More than enough power for it and it has a HPF at 20 Hz, so if you tune it between 19-25 Hz ish you should be protected against over excursion.


I am not at home right now but I am more than happy to model a ported box for you with this sub and amp later tonight.


I guarantee you will NOT be disappointed going this route.


The only advantage of sealed is space savings. That's it.


Is it a myth that sealed subs sound more tuneful/musical?

mthomas47 02-25-2019 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scary1 (Post 57655766)
I guess I don't fully understand the ins and outs of tuning. For instance, Nick at SI recommends tuning to 30 to 32Hz! He claims the room will get me into the 20's. Granted, that's a different driver than my RSS 390. I don't need to shake the nails out of the sheetrock, just some thud and rumble with HT and good base for music. If I tune for, say 19Hz, what are the trade offs with music?

Hi,

Everything is a compromise, and port tuning is no exception. If your driver, cabinet size, and amplifier power are fixed, and the port tune is the only variable, then a lower port tune will produce more SPL in the vicinity of the port tune, than a higher tune will. But, it will have to trade-away a little more >30Hz or 35Hz SPL in the process. As long as you don't listen to music at very high SPL's, there shouldn't be any reason not to have a port tune of around 20Hz, or even a little lower. But, there really isn't any free lunch.

In my personal opinion, you are better off starting with the port tune you want, and then adding a second sub if necessary, to get more mid-bass SPL. If instead, you start with a higher port tune, that doesn't really give you the thud and rumble you want, adding a second identical sub won't really give you appreciably lower extension. (The extension is mainly defined by the port tune--acting in conjunction with whatever room gain you are getting. But, the room gain wasn't sufficient with your sealed subs, and it may not be with a higher port tune, either.)

For music, good SPL down to about 25 or 30Hz is plenty for most people--even for EDM, or other forms of bass-enhanced music. For movies, though, you don't just want to get into the twenties, you want to get into the teens. I would not start with a port tune much higher than about 20Hz, if I were you.

Regards,
Mike

Chris Popovich 02-25-2019 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by impreza276 (Post 57655926)
Is it a myth that sealed subs sound more tuneful/musical?

Sort of. A huge part of that ends up being the final response at the listening position/smoothness/etc. It's true that ported designs, particularly high powered ones with large vents, can suffer from vent resonances, but that can be addressed. Sealed is more forgiving in general. Plus in an enclosure the same size as an large ported design, with sealed you COULD shoehorn in more drivers and close the output gap, provided of course you have the budget for more drivers, the amplifier to make use of them, and the DSP which you'll find useful regardless of alignment.

Spectre55 02-25-2019 12:10 PM

@mthomas47 nailed it. There's nothing for free. There's always a trade-off.


Really comes down to what you want, and how much are you willing to pay for it.


I really think you'll get a lot of bang for your buck (and learn a lot in the process) if you build a ported enclosure for that Dayton 15" and amp.


If you fall in love with it and want more, then get another 15" and amp or go straight to 18"s and a rack amp(s).


If you think, holy sh*t, this is way too much (lol) then go back to your sealed or just keep the volume down on the ported build.


Win win! Can't go wrong.


Again, more than happy to help design an enclosure if that's what you want to do.

scary1 02-25-2019 03:24 PM

Thanks for all the advice guys! I know I am overthinking things a bit, but I have more time for thinking about it than doing the work. (health problems) The cabinet will end up looking like furniture, and I do not plan on building another. Your advice has helped a bunch.:)

notnyt 02-25-2019 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by impreza276 (Post 57655926)
Is it a myth that sealed subs sound more tuneful/musical?

Yes, big myth. A bad enclosure will sound bad, though. You have to design it correctly for the application.

impreza276 02-25-2019 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt (Post 57658454)
Yes, big myth. A bad enclosure will sound bad, though. You have to design it correctly for the application.

A decent design is assumed. An analogy is the difference between a large naturally aspirated engine and a turbocharged engine of the same output. They both propel the car but the power delivery experience is different. I have read in manufactures' advertisements that sealed subs provide better detail and are more musical by nature of their design.

notnyt 02-25-2019 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by impreza276 (Post 57659180)
I have read in manufactures' advertisements that sealed subs provide better detail and are more musical by nature of their design.

Marketing nonsense.

Look at real world applications. Virtually every sub you'll see whether in an arena, movie theater, small venue, bass guitar cab, etc, is ported.

The problem is that most ID sub sellers are not going to make their sub large enough to fall into the 'designed properly' category. The reason you hear the myth is because there are so many undersized enclosures out there.

michael hurd 02-25-2019 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by impreza276 (Post 57659180)
A decent design is assumed. An analogy is the difference between a large naturally aspirated engine and a turbocharged engine of the same output. They both propel the car but the power delivery experience is different. I have read in manufactures' advertisements that sealed subs provide better detail and are more musical by nature of their design.


While there can be some truth to that tale when comparing a poorly designed ported subwoofer to a sealed subwoofer, designs that are optimized for the same driver will highlight the added efficiency of the ported design. A well designed ported enclosure will have more acoustic output and low group delay.



That being said, some drivers are literally not suitable for ported enclosure, since the parameters would require a small enclosure with an impossibly long and large port to have adequate air speed levels.

IAH 02-25-2019 11:39 PM

Will ported subs extend into single digits with any significance if tuned to say 18hz? This has always been a concern of mine. But I literally know next to nothing, even tho I feel like I've read a lot over the past few years - its like a drop in the ocean!


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