Multiple 12" vs 2 18" for my Application - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Multiple 12" vs 2 18" for my Application

So, over the past two weeks I've looked into Marty's, IBs, passive radiators, and lately the multiple 12 options popularized by the $29 JBL thread. In all, I think I am now leaning toward the multiple 12 option for my application, but I need thoughts and confirmation of a few things (it's been a LOT of information!).

I've attached the blueprints for our theater room. Currently, the screen is on the west wall and the SVS PB2-ISD (dual 12s, 600W RMS, 5.4 cu ft enclousure, I believe) I was using before the amp died was on the north wall between the window and the 2'-10"x3' chase knockout. My calculations show the room is ~3300 cu ft.

Here are my questions:

1) I'm leaning toward the multiple 12s due to the ability to smooth response around the room. I could do this with Marty's, but 4 Marty's are just too aesthetically displeasing for this room, which knocks me back to 2. So, my questions here are is 8 12s enough for this room (4 enclosures, 1 in each corner)? Am I correct that I should get better response with this setup?

2) Am I correct that with EQ, I can get the multiple 12s down in the high teens with good output? I don't really care about single digits.

3) Will the multiple 12s provide better impact in the chest punch, mid bass region 60 Hz to 100 Hz over 2 Marty's?

4) Is there benefit to going with 10 12s, having 2 in a nearfield application behind the back row of seats, or is this creating too much complication on the power/wiring side?

5) I'm confused on something with the multiple 12s. I have read several times of people crossing them over around 35 Hz to 40 Hz. Are they talking about the LFE channel from the AVR? If so, that seems awfully low and will cause me to miss one of my requirements of good mid-bass/chest punch.

6) These enclosures from PE (https://www.parts-express.com/goldwo...binet--260-648) seem pretty popular since, I believe, they are really two independent enclosures of ~ 1.5 cu ft. built into one box. Any downside to these vs building my own?

Thanks for the help. I'm sure some of these questions have been answered in the thousands of pages on the subject, so I appreciate you knowledgeable folks being able to summarize and save me from another 3 months of reading .
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post #2 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 10:27 AM
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I feel like the more the merrier. If you can fit more 12s to get you more cone area than the 2 18s, then go with 12s. And yes nearfield is a game-changing experience, I would do it if you can. I'm tempted to say more 12s will have better midbass. If you put the 12s in sealed boxes I would run them no high pass and 100hz low pass. I run my nearfield 150hz. Some people are bothered by it, I'm not at all. The PE boxes look decent but if you can build your own, do it. Will save you a ton of money. A single 4x8 sheet of MDF for $20 can probably build two of those(maybe even more).
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post #3 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Raylon View Post
I feel like the more the merrier. If you can fit more 12s to get you more cone area than the 2 18s, then go with 12s. And yes nearfield is a game-changing experience, I would do it if you can. I'm tempted to say more 12s will have better midbass. If you put the 12s in sealed boxes I would run them no high pass and 100hz low pass. I run my nearfield 150hz. Some people are bothered by it, I'm not at all. The PE boxes look decent but if you can build your own, do it. Will save you a ton of money. A single 4x8 sheet of MDF for $20 can probably build two of those(maybe even more).
Good point, I could buy the circular router jig and bits and still come out ahead. Since these equate to 1.5 cu ft sealed, do you think there is any need for additional bracing inside? It's such a small volume, I would think the one divider panel to create the dual 1.5 cu ft areas is probably sufficient.

[EDIT] Oh, and is TiteBond glue sufficient to hold this together?
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post #4 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
Good point, I could buy the circular router jig and bits and still come out ahead. Since these equate to 1.5 cu ft sealed, do you think there is any need for additional bracing inside? It's such a small volume, I would think the one divider panel to create the dual 1.5 cu ft areas is probably sufficient.



[EDIT] Oh, and is TiteBond glue sufficient to hold this together?
I would highly recommend PL Premium for an adhesive. That and brad nails.

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post #5 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uther View Post
So, over the past two weeks I've looked into Marty's, IBs, passive radiators, and lately the multiple 12 options popularized by the $29 JBL thread. In all, I think I am now leaning toward the multiple 12 option for my application, but I need thoughts and confirmation of a few things (it's been a LOT of information!).

I've attached the blueprints for our theater room. Currently, the screen is on the west wall and the SVS PB2-ISD (dual 12s, 600W RMS, 5.4 cu ft enclousure, I believe) I was using before the amp died was on the north wall between the window and the 2'-10"x3' chase knockout. My calculations show the room is ~3300 cu ft.

Here are my questions:

1) I'm leaning toward the multiple 12s due to the ability to smooth response around the room. I could do this with Marty's, but 4 Marty's are just too aesthetically displeasing for this room, which knocks me back to 2. So, my questions here are is 8 12s enough for this room (4 enclosures, 1 in each corner)? Am I correct that I should get better response with this setup?

2) Am I correct that with EQ, I can get the multiple 12s down in the high teens with good output? I don't really care about single digits.

3) Will the multiple 12s provide better impact in the chest punch, mid bass region 60 Hz to 100 Hz over 2 Marty's?

4) Is there benefit to going with 10 12s, having 2 in a nearfield application behind the back row of seats, or is this creating too much complication on the power/wiring side?

5) I'm confused on something with the multiple 12s. I have read several times of people crossing them over around 35 Hz to 40 Hz. Are they talking about the LFE channel from the AVR? If so, that seems awfully low and will cause me to miss one of my requirements of good mid-bass/chest punch.

6) These enclosures from PE (https://www.parts-express.com/goldwo...binet--260-648) seem pretty popular since, I believe, they are really two independent enclosures of ~ 1.5 cu ft. built into one box. Any downside to these vs building my own?

Thanks for the help. I'm sure some of these questions have been answered in the thousands of pages on the subject, so I appreciate you knowledgeable folks being able to summarize and save me from another 3 months of reading .
1) My room is about 6000cuft and two sealed UM18's placed up front do just fine. Granted, it's probably by virtue of the fact that they are 11' away from the one and only row of seating but they do a great job. My floor rumbles and all that. Since I've read (and modeled it myself in WinISD) that 4x CS1214's (the 12's) will equal about 1x UM18, I'd say your ok. Where you might run into trouble is the fact that they are in the corners. You'll be exciting the same modes by all 4 enclosures so if there's problems with the EQ because of that, you'll either need to move a couple of them or add more.

2) I'm building enclosures for 8x 12's myself right now so I can't answer this. My understanding is that yes, with EQ you can get under 20Hz with these.

3) I hope you can get better chest punch with the 12's. That's why I'm building them myself. I love my UM18's but I got the "what if" bug and suspect that these 12's, in multiples, might offer more in the higher-bass.

4) If you're going to add more, and they're behind the back row, I'd add more than 2. At least 4 or 8 right?

5) I'm not sure about the crossover. What they might have been referring to is something like what my intentions with them are; let the AVR do the crossover between the subs and mains. I'm planning on 100Hz. Then let the 12's take between 100Hz and 40Hz. Then I'll cross the 12's at 40Hz with the UM18's (that I'll move nearfield) and let them handle 40Hz to <20Hz. So you *could* say that I'm crossing the 12's at 40Hz, on one end of their frequency range at least.

6) I'm building my own (2x per enclosure) but if you don't mind the fur on those boxes from PE, it'd sure be a huge time-saver. I'd put some bracing in there myself but I admit that I don't have enough practical experience to say whether I'm being over-cautious or not.

Good luck and keep us posted!
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post #6 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uther View Post



5) I'm confused on something with the multiple 12s. I have read several times of people crossing them over around 35 Hz to 40 Hz. Are they talking about the LFE channel from the AVR? If so, that seems awfully low and will cause me to miss one of my requirements of good mid-bass/chest punch.

I believe some people are low passing their nearfield subs at those frequencies. Though many are quite excited about the punch and rumble that near fields provide, some of us don't enjoy having James Earl Jones vibrating our nether regions. The low, low pass filter keeps him up front, where he belongs.


I tried near fields once, but did not have the ability to set two different cross over points (far and near) so ultimately abandoned it. I can see how some find it thrilling, but to be it just seemed fake.
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post #7 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 01:43 PM - Thread Starter
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I would highly recommend PL Premium for an adhesive. That and brad nails.

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I have experience with a pneumatic stapler, but not a brad nailer. I'm assuming you can set the PSI high enough to counter sink the brad nail so you can cover with wood filler and sand?
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post #8 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 01:51 PM
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I have experience with a pneumatic stapler, but not a brad nailer. I'm assuming you can set the PSI high enough to counter sink the brad nail so you can cover with wood filler and sand?
Yes. I've never had the head of a brad nail above the surface. And, this is using it on mdf and Baltic birch. You should be fine. Try it on some test pieces first. That's what I did the first time I used it.

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post #9 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
1) My room is about 6000cuft and two sealed UM18's placed up front do just fine. Granted, it's probably by virtue of the fact that they are 11' away from the one and only row of seating but they do a great job. My floor rumbles and all that. Since I've read (and modeled it myself in WinISD) that 4x CS1214's (the 12's) will equal about 1x UM18, I'd say your ok. Where you might run into trouble is the fact that they are in the corners. You'll be exciting the same modes by all 4 enclosures so if there's problems with the EQ because of that, you'll either need to move a couple of them or add more.

2) I'm building enclosures for 8x 12's myself right now so I can't answer this. My understanding is that yes, with EQ you can get under 20Hz with these.

3) I hope you can get better chest punch with the 12's. That's why I'm building them myself. I love my UM18's but I got the "what if" bug and suspect that these 12's, in multiples, might offer more in the higher-bass.

4) If you're going to add more, and they're behind the back row, I'd add more than 2. At least 4 or 8 right?

5) I'm not sure about the crossover. What they might have been referring to is something like what my intentions with them are; let the AVR do the crossover between the subs and mains. I'm planning on 100Hz. Then let the 12's take between 100Hz and 40Hz. Then I'll cross the 12's at 40Hz with the UM18's (that I'll move nearfield) and let them handle 40Hz to <20Hz. So you *could* say that I'm crossing the 12's at 40Hz, on one end of their frequency range at least.

6) I'm building my own (2x per enclosure) but if you don't mind the fur on those boxes from PE, it'd sure be a huge time-saver. I'd put some bracing in there myself but I admit that I don't have enough practical experience to say whether I'm being over-cautious or not.

Good luck and keep us posted!
I agree on the nearfield and was wondering about just going in multiples of 4. I might wait on that until I get my rear riser built on those. I've see some interesting posts on building 4 into the riser directly under the seating.

I keep going back and forth on buying or building the boxes as I'm impatient to get this done. Money isn't the driving force, but I also like to get value for my dollar and it is appealing to finish them as I wish. Of course, the gray carpet doesn't look bad and would pair with the light gray carpet and charcoal walls in the theater. Let the internal conflict continue .

BTW, nice to see another Alabamian on here. I'm down near Mobile myself!
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post #10 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 04:35 PM
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I have a dozen JBL's and two UM18's. I'm in the process of selling the UM18's and buying more JBL's. The move is partly driven because I like projects, but also driven by the ridiculous value those stupid little JBL's have when used in large quantities. Give it a whirl, and definitely do the nearfield thing.

Nearfield (for me) is crossed over lower to stop it from being obvious that a sub is behind/beside you. Hence the 30-40hz crossover, but that's just me. Lots of other guys cross over higher and boost more down low.... doesn't really matter, what matters is you like how it sounds and it doesn't overtly call attention to itself.

Car audio enclosures are cheap, but if you can pick them up locally I recommend it. I had some I ordered through ebay show up damaged and it was a giant pain in the ass to sort it out, box 'em up, etc. My issues would have been avoided if they packed them right, but I digress. I don't really like those boxes you linked, I think you can do better for the money especially. I got a bunch of triple-12 enclosures locally for $45 each.

Compared to dual 18's, I'd go with at least a dozen JBL's. Perhaps 2 in each corner and 4 nearfield. I'm going with something on the order of 16 up front and 12 behind me (subject to change... )
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post #11 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 05:03 PM
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How you add your nearfield is definitely all about preference, but Chris is right that boosting the low end....or lpf the midbass and up (similar results) is always done because nearfield works best if you can start from a somewhat flat response and shape it how you like it from there.

I personally like nearfield to be integrated seamlessly as if they are like any other sub...so I calibrate them the same as the others.

But thats me right now. Ive tried many configurations and many people love the full roller coaster/gunshot experience where the nearfields are cranked up, or only nearfield is used and its an incredible experience.

It really doesnt matter how you get to your goal...12s, 18s, they all work and with multiples it works out great in most cases...so a lot of folks decided just buy a bunch of less expensive 12s and its hard to argue with the value compared to most anything else.

Think of your subs as "groups" or channels, and space them out where the subs on the same channel are roughly the same distance to the source.

More channels of amps provides flexibility.
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post #12 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
I agree on the nearfield and was wondering about just going in multiples of 4. I might wait on that until I get my rear riser built on those. I've see some interesting posts on building 4 into the riser directly under the seating.

I keep going back and forth on buying or building the boxes as I'm impatient to get this done. Money isn't the driving force, but I also like to get value for my dollar and it is appealing to finish them as I wish. Of course, the gray carpet doesn't look bad and would pair with the light gray carpet and charcoal walls in the theater. Let the internal conflict continue .

BTW, nice to see another Alabamian on here. I'm down near Mobile myself!
Yeah! If your ever up north near Huntsville give me a shout.

I thought about buying the boxes myself. As you said, it's not about the money although I'll shop for the bargain. In the end, I want to paint my boxes red like the other speakers. If the gray covering that comes with these matches your decor, then you do have a tough choice. You could buy the boxes to save time, and build your own at your leisure later on.

I like building them but it does take a serious amount of time. I'm shuffling four of these heavy boxes around the garage. Building the box was nothing compared to priming, sanding, and painting. I'm getting close though.

The idea of putting the nearfield 12's under the seating sounds interesting as well (can't remember the member's name that posted about it). Seems like an easy build. If you don't like it, scrap the baffle/platform and put the drivers into something else.

So Chris, does it really take a dozen of these to match a couple of 18's? I'm curious since I'm about to replace my 2x 18's with 8x CS1214's. I guess I'll find out....



Gotta be red....

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post #13 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 05:43 PM
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Yup! I equalize my main subs and the nearfields differently, but then globally equalize them as a whole.

My nearfields are eq'd differently because I wanted the tactile response to feel linear... i.e. not have one bass guitar string feel like it's all from the front and the next one down shake the hell out of the couch. Once that balance between front and rear was figured out, I group them together and eq them as a whole. Make sense?

Keep in mind my end use is 100% music, so perhaps I'm a bit more critical about what couch vibes happen when. I am a cranky bastard.

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post #14 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post

So Chris, does it really take a dozen of these to match a couple of 18's? I'm curious since I'm about to replace my 2x 18's with 8x CS1214's. I guess I'll find out....

Gotta be red....

Two things:

1: No. If you locate the JBL's where the 18's were and target same response, I bet you'll be a little ahead. If you locate them advantageously you will be ahead.

2: Your cabinets are beautiful. You are a sir among sirs. If you were local I would beg/borrow/manipulate/bribe/etc you into helping me with my next batch of tomfoolery. Well done.

Chris
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post #15 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
Two things:

1: No. If you locate the JBL's where the 18's were and target same response, I bet you'll be a little ahead. If you locate them advantageously you will be ahead.

2: Your cabinets are beautiful. You are a sir among sirs. If you were local I would beg/borrow/manipulate/bribe/etc you into helping me with my next batch of tomfoolery. Well done.

Chris
Thanks! I sanded the snot out of these. Routed with a flush trim bit, patched, primed, sanding the whole time. Some of the seams *still* broadcast through. I've come to realize that it isn't the smoothness of the mating pieces, rather I think the edge of the MDF soaks up whatever you put on it and raises up a bit from the flat side of the mating piece. I need to figure out how to seal these better. Most of the seams are invisible but a few I couldn't hide.

Anyway, thanks, that's good to hear about the 12's vs 18's. I'm putting the 12's *exactly* where the 18's were; 4 12's where one 18 was and 4 where the other one was up front. My plan is to match them up with EQ to exactly what the 18's were doing except HPF them at 40Hz and let the 18's (moved nearfield) do 40Hz and under.

I'll try that out and if it doesn't work, I'll try something like what your doing.
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Keep in mind my end use is 100% music, so perhaps I'm a bit more critical about what couch vibes happen when.
You should look into the VBSS build tuned to ~30Hz
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I agree on the nearfield and was wondering about just going in multiples of 4. I might wait on that until I get my rear riser built on those. I've see some interesting posts on building 4 into the riser directly under the seating.

I keep going back and forth on buying or building the boxes as I'm impatient to get this done. Money isn't the driving force, but I also like to get value for my dollar and it is appealing to finish them as I wish. Of course, the gray carpet doesn't look bad and would pair with the light gray carpet and charcoal walls in the theater. Let the internal conflict continue [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG].

BTW, nice to see another Alabamian on here. I'm down near Mobile myself!
Yeah! If your ever up north near Huntsville give me a shout.

I thought about buying the boxes myself. As you said, it's not about the money although I'll shop for the bargain. In the end, I want to paint my boxes red like the other speakers. If the gray covering that comes with these matches your decor, then you do have a tough choice. You could buy the boxes to save time, and build your own at your leisure later on.

I like building them but it does take a serious amount of time. I'm shuffling four of these heavy boxes around the garage. Building the box was nothing compared to priming, sanding, and painting. I'm getting close though.

The idea of putting the nearfield 12's under the seating sounds interesting as well (can't remember the member's name that posted about it). Seems like an easy build. If you don't like it, scrap the baffle/platform and put the drivers into something else.

So Chris, does it really take a dozen of these to match a couple of 18's? I'm curious since I'm about to replace my 2x 18's with 8x CS1214's. I guess I'll find out....



Gotta be red....

Those are beautiful, but I'm more partial to Aggie maroon than Bama crimson &#x1f609;.

I could definitely start with more if necessary, but I was thinking start with four enclosures (8 drivers) to figure out the best locations, learn how to measure my room response, and just generally get my feet wet to help me determine what I really NEED (no wants here HA!).

Do I recall correctly that I can run 8 of these and have plenty of headroom with a 3000DSP at 4 ohms on each channel, bi amp mode?

I'm getting excited about starting this. DIY could be a fun hobby and I finally have a room with a good, flexible shape I can change up as needed. Already thinking about doing the room to do a false wall in front of the cut out and having an AT screen with some 1099 LCRs behind. Here we go.
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post #18 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 06:56 PM
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You should look into the VBSS build tuned to ~30Hz
I routinely listen to music with significant subsonic info, and when it's not there (which is often) I use a subharmonic synth. 30hz won't do. Current system is up about 10dB hot at 10hz, and that's necessary.
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post #19 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 07:56 PM
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smcmillan2 knows his stuff. The VBSS subs are awesome. I have 10 of them.
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post #20 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 07:56 PM
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I routinely listen to music with significant subsonic info, and when it's not there (which is often) I use a subharmonic synth. 30hz won't do. Current system is up about 10dB hot at 10hz, and that's necessary.
Then the 15Hz tune of the VBSS may interest you. I have a modified version (in my sig) that measures an f3 around 16. Not sure it could hit 10 with authority though. What type of music are you listening to? That may help others with some suggestions.
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post #21 of 66 Old 02-08-2019, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Another question: so I assume when connecting 4 drivers in 2 enclosures from 1 channel of the amp, you are using speakon out of the amp to either binding post or banana plug, which then allows the necessary series/parallel connection between the 4 drivers to maintain the 4 ohm impotence?
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Then the 15Hz tune of the VBSS may interest you. I have a modified version (in my sig) that measures an f3 around 16. Not sure it could hit 10 with authority though. What type of music are you listening to? That may help others with some suggestions.
Thanks brother! I like what you're doing there. I really like the big ported enclosures, I was making what would become something of the ilk of a LLT (EBS!) back in the mid to late 90' with shiva's. Then played around with PR's with super low tuning, mostly to side step port resonances and have a reasonable tune in a smaller box, and I had a lot of fun with that. I swapped over to sealed initially for convenience/size, and then later on stepped it up a notch and started playing with arrays. I'm not against ported boxes, I've just been having a lot of fun shoe-horning a butt load of JBL's into my living room, eq'ing the poop out of them and having a stupid grin on my face. Something about cone area.... I don't think I could fit the same number of drivers I have (counting my closet planned ones) into ported enclosures and have any space left, I'm looking at the best part of 30 JBL's when I'm through with this next phase of the project. Going from 1.25~1.5 cu ft to 4+ on them makes for some serious negotiations. I'm good, but I don't think I'm that good. haha

As for the music, the biggest part of it is literally anything with a subharmonic synth engaged. Take any music with output from 30-50hz, which is most things, and it adds a subharmonic at half the frequency. Toss in a stout house curve (I'm up about 10dB from ~30hz on down) and now you're having some fun. I've calculated I use approx 10x amplifier power with it engaged, it's no joke but I cannot deny my enjoyment of it all. I can tell you this, if I disengage it, it seems all of a sudden like my system has some fairly ridiculous excess capability.

If I had less cones to play with 100% I'd be going large ported arrays.

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Another question: so I assume when connecting 4 drivers in 2 enclosures from 1 channel of the amp, you are using speakon out of the amp to either binding post or banana plug, which then allows the necessary series/parallel connection between the 4 drivers to maintain the 4 ohm impotence?
I just use normal binding posts, and bare wire from my amps to the speakers to do so. I'm using Crown XLS, it seemed the easiest path forward with that amp/config.
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Another question: so I assume when connecting 4 drivers in 2 enclosures from 1 channel of the amp, you are using speakon out of the amp to either binding post or banana plug, which then allows the necessary series/parallel connection between the 4 drivers to maintain the 4 ohm impotence?
I'm doing the same thing (2 enclosures from one channel). And yes, Although I'm using an NU6000DSP in biamp mode, I assume that the 3000 will work just as well.

I debated about using regular binding posts but with 2 enclosures, I wanted the drivers in each box to be in series (for a total of 8ohms per box) and then parallel the boxes to get to 4ohms for the channel. I didn't want to use wire-nuts, or a separate enclosure, to split the speaker wires (to make them parallel) before attaching to the enclosures. I ended up going with Speakon at the enclosure and I'll do an "in" connector and an "out" connector wired in parallel inside so I can daisy-chain the speaker wire from one enclosure to the next.

Thinking about it now, I could have done the exact same thing with the binding posts I guess but I just like the Speakons.
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
Another question: so I assume when connecting 4 drivers in 2 enclosures from 1 channel of the amp, you are using speakon out of the amp to either binding post or banana plug, which then allows the necessary series/parallel connection between the 4 drivers to maintain the 4 ohm impotence?
I'd recommend Speakon connectors. First of all, they're incredibly easy to install and connect. Secondly they lock in place, no accidental disconnects. Yes, they're a little more. But, they're completely worth it. Parts Express also gives discounts when buying over a certain number. Speakon is all I'll ever use. I think binding posts feel flimsy after using Speakons.

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post #26 of 66 Old 02-09-2019, 06:38 AM
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Uther....great space to work with.

LSU purple here....lol....getting ready to go to the basketball game today for a showdown with Auburn....should be a great game...Go Tigers!

You're plan sounds great. If it were me starting from scratch today, I would just start with 2 JBL's in each corner (8 drivers total - 2 in each of the 4 corners,..one box per corner). This is the classic Welti-Devantier placement to give you a good starting point for even bass response to each of your theater seats.

With this arrangement, if you want more far-field SPL down the road, then add another box of 2 JBL's to each corner on top of the original boxes, wired in parallel with it's mate below (another 8 drivers total).....drop the amplifier impedance down and enjoy the added efficiency you've just installed.

You didn't mention if you're on a concrete slab. If you are, you'll want some near-field bass also to supplement the far-field bass you have in the corners. This will deliver awesome tactile response. Think of the ground floating below you on a bed of air that responds to every wave of low bass energy that is coming from the screen or music to get an idea what I'm talking about.

For that nearfield, I'd recommend my BOSS design which you're probably familiar with from the JBL thread. As jcmccorm stated, if you don't like the BOSS, just remove the subwoofers from the plywood and re-purpose them in a traditional speaker cabinet and use the plywood for another project. It's super easy to construct, has great WAF as it disappears into the room and is guaranteed to deliver smiles. It takes about an hour to construct, 2 hours, if you decide you like it and want to carpet it.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by trhought; 02-09-2019 at 06:43 AM.
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post #27 of 66 Old 02-09-2019, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a dozen JBL's and two UM18's. I'm in the process of selling the UM18's and buying more JBL's. The move is partly driven because I like projects, but also driven by the ridiculous value those stupid little JBL's have when used in large quantities. Give it a whirl, and definitely do the nearfield thing.

Nearfield (for me) is crossed over lower to stop it from being obvious that a sub is behind/beside you. Hence the 30-40hz crossover, but that's just me. Lots of other guys cross over higher and boost more down low.... doesn't really matter, what matters is you like how it sounds and it doesn't overtly call attention to itself.

Car audio enclosures are cheap, but if you can pick them up locally I recommend it. I had some I ordered through ebay show up damaged and it was a giant pain in the ass to sort it out, box 'em up, etc. My issues would have been avoided if they packed them right, but I digress. I don't really like those boxes you linked, I think you can do better for the money especially. I got a bunch of triple-12 enclosures locally for $45 each.

Compared to dual 18's, I'd go with at least a dozen JBL's. Perhaps 2 in each corner and 4 nearfield. I'm going with something on the order of 16 up front and 12 behind me (subject to change... )
I forgot to ask you, what volume were the triple enclosures you found?
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I'm doing the same thing (2 enclosures from one channel). And yes, Although I'm using an NU6000DSP in biamp mode, I assume that the 3000 will work just as well.

I debated about using regular binding posts but with 2 enclosures, I wanted the drivers in each box to be in series (for a total of 8ohms per box) and then parallel the boxes to get to 4ohms for the channel. I didn't want to use wire-nuts, or a separate enclosure, to split the speaker wires (to make them parallel) before attaching to the enclosures. I ended up going with Speakon at the enclosure and I'll do an "in" connector and an "out" connector wired in parallel inside so I can daisy-chain the speaker wire from one enclosure to the next.

Thinking about it now, I could have done the exact same thing with the binding posts I guess but I just like the Speakons.
Do you see any issues running this much wattage for a long run through say 12 or 14 AWG speaker wire? If not, I'm thinking I could easily use a short speakon to the binding post of the first subs connector plate behind my rack, then just create the parallel connection to the second enclosure at the same spot, rather than running the parallel from box-to-box. Of course, if I end up having two boxes stacked in the same location, then box-to-box is easier and less pulls through the attic and wall.

If you recommend the 6000 to drive two channels of 4 drivers, I'll go with that. Your experience speaks much more to me that just going with the numbers/specs.

Lastly, do you have the cut sheet and plan for the enclosure you built and would you mind sharing?
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post #29 of 66 Old 02-09-2019, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd recommend Speakon connectors. First of all, they're incredibly easy to install and connect. Secondly they lock in place, no accidental disconnects. Yes, they're a little more. But, they're completely worth it. Parts Express also gives discounts when buying over a certain number. Speakon is all I'll ever use. I think binding posts feel flimsy after using Speakons.

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Thanks. So you do something similar to jm by drilling a hole inside the cabinet to create your series connections from driver to driver, then adding a speakon out to create the box-to-box parallel?
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post #30 of 66 Old 02-09-2019, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Uther....great space to work with.

LSU purple here....lol....getting ready to go to the basketball game today for a showdown with Auburn....should be a great game...Go Tigers!

You're plan sounds great. If it were me starting from scratch today, I would just start with 2 JBL's in each corner (8 drivers total - 2 in each of the 4 corners,..one box per corner). This is the classic Welti-Devantier placement to give you a good starting point for even bass response to each of your theater seats.

With this arrangement, if you want more far-field SPL down the road, then add another box of 2 JBL's to each corner on top of the original boxes, wired in parallel with it's mate below (another 8 drivers total).....drop the amplifier impedance down and enjoy the added efficiency you've just installed.

You didn't mention if you're on a concrete slab. If you are, you'll want some near-field bass also to supplement the far-field bass you have in the corners. This will deliver awesome tactile response. Think of the ground floating below you on a bed of air that responds to every wave of low bass energy that is coming from the screen or music to get an idea what I'm talking about.

For that nearfield, I'd recommend my BOSS design which you're probably familiar with from the JBL thread. As jcmccorm stated, if you don't like the BOSS, just remove the subwoofers from the plywood and re-purpose them in a traditional speaker cabinet and use the plywood for another project. It's super easy to construct, has great WAF as it disappears into the room and is guaranteed to deliver smiles. It takes about an hour to construct, 2 hours, if you decide you like it and want to carpet it.

Hope this helps.
That does help. Let me ask this then, are you recommending two amps to start so I can drive one enclosure from each channel? As I understand it, with only one amp, I can only tune each individual channel (essentially two enclosures or 4 drivers will get the same tuning applied, regardless of placement). Is it necessary to have the ability to tune all 4 in this corner configuration? Obviously, if one channel drives a bank of 4 at the same location, this becomes moot.

[EDIT] I almost forgot, SEC...SEC...SEC!
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